2017 LeBron or 2023 Jokic ?

[wafflzgod]

Both have a strong argument as the greatest offensive force in history. LeBron takes this due to the defensive gap imo.

[rk2023]

Been on a crazy 2012-2018 full-game LeBron binge this summer. I may actually rank 2017 as his weakest of those 7 seasons. Still amazing, of course, but physically this is the smallest he looked since like 2007 and I thought it negatively impacted his explosiveness. He's slower off the gates and thus more dribble-happy than probably any other year of his career pre-2017. 2023 Jokic to me is undoubtedly the superior offensive player. Just a matter of whether LeBron's defense is good enough to make up for Jokic's offensive edge. Hard to go against a guy that won the championship with the clinic Jokic put on the entire postseason though. LeBron had that gaudy stat line in the FInals but I don't think his impact matched his numbers that series.

I'd probably take any other version of LeBron from 09-18 over 2023 Jokic ('11 and '15 excluded).

How comes 2015 > 17 for you?

[Ben AN]

Been on a crazy 2012-2018 full-game LeBron binge this summer. I may actually rank 2017 as his weakest of those 7 seasons. Still amazing, of course, but physically this is the smallest he looked since like 2007 and I thought it negatively impacted his explosiveness. He's slower off the gates and thus more dribble-happy than probably any other year of his career pre-2017. 2023 Jokic to me is undoubtedly the superior offensive player. Just a matter of whether LeBron's defense is good enough to make up for Jokic's offensive edge. Hard to go against a guy that won the championship with the clinic Jokic put on the entire postseason though. LeBron had that gaudy stat line in the FInals but I don't think his impact matched his numbers that series.

I'd probably take any other version of LeBron from 09-18 over 2023 Jokic ('11 and '15 excluded).

Not really.
His avg dribbles per touch in 17 and the prior years (Regular Season|Playoffs)
14: 3.38|3.61
15: 3.92|4.35
16: 3.06|3.16
17: 3.28|3.49
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Playoffs
As for explosiveness, he had his career high in dunks in 17 as well.

[ShotCreator]

Been on a crazy 2012-2018 full-game LeBron binge this summer. I may actually rank 2017 as his weakest of those 7 seasons. Still amazing, of course, but physically this is the smallest he looked since like 2007 and I thought it negatively impacted his explosiveness. He's slower off the gates and thus more dribble-happy than probably any other year of his career pre-2017. 2023 Jokic to me is undoubtedly the superior offensive player. Just a matter of whether LeBron's defense is good enough to make up for Jokic's offensive edge. Hard to go against a guy that won the championship with the clinic Jokic put on the entire postseason though. LeBron had that gaudy stat line in the FInals but I don't think his impact matched his numbers that series.

I'd probably take any other version of LeBron from 09-18 over 2023 Jokic ('11 and '15 excluded).

Hmm. My gut told me Jokic over 17 LeBron when I saw this thread but this is an interesting take.

I always felt 17 LeBron was slimmer and therefore quicker than 16 off the dribble. However he did lose athleticism is weird ways. I felt his recovery ability in closing out to shooters and his lateral foot speed was visibly worse in 17.

And the extra muscle made him seem stiffer to me in 15 and 16 compared to 17, where he was shooting off dribble with much more ease by the middle of the 17 RS.


Who knows. But my gut does tell me Jokic is the better raw offensive player for sure. Close but clear.

[homecourtloss]

.

Hmm. My gut told me Jokic over 17 LeBron when I saw this thread but this is an interesting take.

I always felt 17 LeBron was slimmer and therefore quicker than 16 off the dribble. However he did lose athleticism is weird ways. I felt his recovery ability in closing out to shooters and his lateral foot speed was visibly worse in 17.

And the extra muscle made him seem stiffer to me in 15 and 16 compared to 17, where he was shooting off dribble with much more ease by the middle of the 17 RS.

Who knows. But my gut does tell me Jokic is the better raw offensive player for sure. Close but clear.

About the first bolded: the one thing LeBron did better defensively in the 2017 regular season was get out to spot up three point shooters.



But not in the playoffs, but then again, 2016 LeBron has the craziest synergy defensive profile I’ve ever seen.



About the second bolded, I would agree.

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Watch on YouTube

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First 40 seconds here show his quickness with ball. Look at that little hop-step dribble he was utilizing in space in 2017 at :35.
—You see some more at :45 and at 1:15.
—You see the easy pull up off the dribble at 2:06.

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Watch on YouTube

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—You see the rhythm of the dribble pull up in this at 1:00.
—Hop dribble at 1:08
—Stutter dribble at 2:50
—Dribble acceleration in space at 3:03
—Pull up three at 3:10 and at 3:27
—Dribble acceleration at 4:12