FIBA World Cup 2023 : GERMANY are the new World Champions! (takes on the world and beats it for once...)

[durden_tyler]

And i feel we are disrespecting the nations who advanced to the final already. There is already a Team USA postmortem thread so let’s discuss the Americans future plans there.

After 3 non-bearing games, we got the tasty Serbia-Germany gold medal match on Sunday.

No real favorites according to Vegas as it’s a toss up line (Germany -1.5 vs Serbia, total at 174.5)

Leaning Serbia but might still change my mind because of RealGM hot takes.

Keys for me:
- who will contain Bogdanovic (Bonga and the likes, Germany has defensive weapons)
- similar hustling and active bigs for both; who has the edge?
- which Schroder are we getting (the chucker one vs Latvia or the smart one vs USA
- Franz Wagner is healthy despite the injury; that is big for Germany maybe he negatws the Bogdan production
- which team wants this to be a faster pace, i think both sees it’s to their advantage if they can slow it down so expect a low scoring affair?

[Nuntius]

And as you can see, the quality of those players are 5x better than what they sent in the previous World Cup.

It’s not just the age, my friend.

And I didn't disagree with that either. At any point. My point simply was that the stars who are way too old (35+) are not going to come again so they really shouldn't count as the "A team".

The players you listed above are your "A team" and the ones you sent in this tournament are basically your "B team", not your "C team".

So yeah we agree. World Cup roster won’t be the same quality with whatever Olympics roster will be.

The ~35+ years old baseline, i can see that considering injury risk and all. But i feel you’d have one of the older guys play and i think it’s going to be Steph. (Tough ask indeed for LeBron)

Yep, it looks like we mostly agree here.

[levon]

The real takeaway is that young US talent is in the worst place it’s been in a very long time


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

I don't think the US is short on talent, but basketball IQ and maybe health due to AAU play and hyper-athletic bodies. Ant and JJJ aren't lacking in talent. No one would say Zion isn't talented.

[DaPessimist]

Germany was the better team. Looked like the best team all tourney. Although I obviously wanted USA to win, it would have been kind of tragic if we won that game.

[RookieStar]

I know that but the quote I was responding to was pretty hostile in nature (there's no way to parse of "lmao go back to school" as polite) so I responded in kind.

Yeah true. I guess i made a mess when i wrote EU instead of Europe

Naaaaah. Its normal for a lot of us. I also use EU to mean European or Europe not European Union. Just hope the GB posters here are smart/wise enough to understand that different people have different viewpoints.

[AussieCeltic]

This isn't as good as it gets and not particularly close. The team is missing LeBron, Steph, Durant, AD, Lillard, Butler, Fox, Draymond, Morant Booker. Even the role players aren't the best.

I'll give you Fox, Morant and Booker but everyone else is way too old by this point. LeBron is 38, Steph is 35, Durant is turning 35 in a few weeks, Butler is turning 34 in less than a week, Lillard is 33 and AD is 30 and injury-prone.

The chances of these players being healthy and in a good enough condition to play in late August/early September are basically zero. Do they really count as the A team if they cannot realistically be there?

So now we're saying we'll see the same makeup in Paris? That's just wrong. This was a B team (Under 25 years old i believe but let me check)

Edit i was thinking average. So yeah, 28 years old is the oldest (Portis and Hart).

Same point, this is not the best USA team, or we conveniently forget about it.

I love posters like you. You were one of the guys saying $1.80 was free money pre tournament and then when the US lose its because “it’s the B team”.

Its so predictable.

[durden_tyler]

I'll give you Fox, Morant and Booker but everyone else is way too old by this point. LeBron is 38, Steph is 35, Durant is turning 35 in a few weeks, Butler is turning 34 in less than a week, Lillard is 33 and AD is 30 and injury-prone.

The chances of these players being healthy and in a good enough condition to play in late August/early September are basically zero. Do they really count as the A team if they cannot realistically be there?

So now we're saying we'll see the same makeup in Paris? That's just wrong. This was a B team (Under 25 years old i believe but let me check)

Edit i was thinking average. So yeah, 28 years old is the oldest (Portis and Hart).

Same point, this is not the best USA team, or we conveniently forget about it.

I love posters like you. You were one of the guys saying $1.80 was free money pre tournament and then when the US lose its because “it’s the B team”.

Its so predictable.

I'll give you Fox, Morant and Booker but everyone else is way too old by this point. LeBron is 38, Steph is 35, Durant is turning 35 in a few weeks, Butler is turning 34 in less than a week, Lillard is 33 and AD is 30 and injury-prone.

The chances of these players being healthy and in a good enough condition to play in late August/early September are basically zero. Do they really count as the A team if they cannot realistically be there?

So now we're saying we'll see the same makeup in Paris? That's just wrong. This was a B team (Under 25 years old i believe but let me check)

Edit i was thinking average. So yeah, 28 years old is the oldest (Portis and Hart).

Same point, this is not the best USA team, or we conveniently forget about it.

I love posters like you. You were one of the guys saying $1.80 was free money pre tournament and then when the US lose its because “it’s the B team”.

Its so predictable.

It is a B team and at even money it was/is good value.

As with 50/50 lines, you lose some, you win some.

I hope you placed some bets on Serbia or Germany to go all the way. Got receipts? Or you’re just all talk?

(I have to thank Serbia, Latvia, am still up in this tourney despite the US loss )

[Nuntius]

In 2012, Kobe was 33. In 2016, Melo was 32. In 2020, Durant was 32 and you had 4 guys over the age of 30. I don't know why Lillard's or Butler's or Draymond's age is suddenly a problem considering the longevity is being extended more than ever. We're not asking guys to play 82 games + 4 seven game series, we're asking them to play basically 6 games. Sit the "old" guys in the exhibitions if need be. An injured version of AD probably plays better than JJJ did.

I could see Lillard, Butler, Draymond and AD coming. Those 4 are right on the borderline, imo. But LeBron and Steph? No chance they're coming. imo.

Let's call a spade a spade: they're not playing because they're not financially incentivized or particularly interested. It's an unspoken thing in the NBA that young guys do international play, whereas other teams are rolling out 40 year old Rudy Fernandez. Some players who were born and raised in the US (KAT) go to play for ethnic home countries.

Yep, I definitely believe that this unspoken rule exists which is why I don't think that it makes sense to include those 35+ guys in the talent pool.

But let's say none of those players I listed are part of the "pool". If you have even three of Fox, Booker, Tatum, and Morant on this team, they probably sweep the tournament. Or how about Caruso over Hart? Is Bobby Portis the best we can do at backup 4? Come now.

Sure, I never disagreed about Fox, Booker, Tatum and Morant. I specifically objected on those over 30, especially those over 35.

Well if you apply every caveat and handicap in the book as we've just done, this FIBA team starts looking like something close to the best team the US can build in terms of American talent. But it's not, which was the crux of my original reply to that poster.

Unless the other countries somehow have the same caveats applied to them and aren't going out of their way to naturalize guys. And yes, I'm aware that the NBA affects their eligibility as well with Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis. Giannis imo should have played, but whatever.

Maybe the takeaway here is the US needs to relax its ageism a bit as baseline longevity is improving, or somehow motivate these NBA megastars to play internationally. But they're just straight up billionaires that don't care. It doesn't make business sense.

The 35+ caveat does apply to most countries. Players like Rudy Fernandez, Luis Scola and Hamed Haddadi who play until their 40s are a rarity.

Finland's Peterri Koponen, for example, retired from the national team after last year's EuroBasket, a few months after he turned 34.

And if I was to look at my own country's national team, Greece, this is what I'd see:

Calathes and Sloukas played in 2022 but didn't play this year. They were 33 and 32 respectively at the time of their last appearance.

Bourousis and Printezis last played in 2019. Bourousis was 36 and Printezis was 34.

Spanoulis and Zisis last played in 2015. Spanoulis was 33 and Zisis was 32.

You see the pattern here, don't you? The majority of players does tend to limit stop playing after they hit the wrong side of 30 and they definitely stop when they go past 35. The ones who play to their very late 30s/early 40s are the exception, not the rule. And it does apply to every country.

[Nuntius]

I know that but the quote I was responding to was pretty hostile in nature (there's no way to parse of "lmao go back to school" as polite) so I responded in kind.

Yeah true. I guess i made a mess when i wrote EU instead of Europe

Naaaaah. Its normal for a lot of us. I also use EU to mean European or Europe not European Union. Just hope the GB posters here are smart/wise enough to understand that different people have different viewpoints.

They usually are. It's just when someone (not you, obviously) goes the "lmao go back to school" way that things get south

[durden_tyler]

Euro posters, who among these teams tend to play better even if it’s no bearing games? Pride and all?

Looking to win some more before tomorrow’s big game.

Italy vs Slovenia +3.0
177.0

Latvia vs Lithuania -7.0
173.5

[DrPampiloni]

2024 Redeem team:

Curry, Reaves, Kawhi, Durant, Davis

OLD AND INJURIED, Sonned in the post, INJURED, OLD AND INJURED, INJURED.

[Mirotic12]

This is still most talented roster on paper, not like Kerr was coaching a big underdog here. 2010 team was also B/C/D team, but K made it into dominant force, the second leading guy in minutes on that team was 2010 Chauncey Billups...

The 2010 team was more talented than this 2023 team is. And the 2014 team was much more talented.

Coach K failed with USA when he didn't have the best team in 1990. He failed when he did have the best team in 2006. The 2008, 2012, and 2016 elimination games against Spain were all close.

Coach K had incredible success as the coach, but the actual level of that success is also greatly exaggerated, often even to hyperbolic levels.

[Mirotic12]

So many posters here like to play analyst, trying to dissect what went wrong for this US team.
Coach is to blame, flawed strategies, bad substitution patterns, Player A should be playing more and Player B should be benched...
Horrible roster construction, too small not enough size.
Heck even ex football players like Keyshawn Johnson and Michael Irvin are saying the main reason they lost if they sent the B Team instead of the "A-Team" the ultimate best US players like Steph etc as if they got beat by Euro superstars.
Not saying these takes are wrong but I think the main problem is the lack of enough preparation to achieve Chemistry among players.
Yes, having the best talent can make up some of it's shortcomings but these teams have some kind of familiarity of each other.
Canada also lost and I think they also have the same problems. The teams that usually thrive have players have been been playing for a long time together and if you look at the age, they are lot more mature than guy like Banchero (20), Kesslar and Edwards at 22, 23 year olds JJJ, Halli.
Guys like Bridges, Ingram, Brunson may not be that young but they are also not played enough games under FIBA rules.

Keyshawn Johnson is suggesting to send a team with an average age of like 35, and most of them are either injured or tired all the time, and not one of them plays a lick of defense.

[Liam_Gallagher]

Read on Twitter

[Mirotic12]

In 2012, Kobe was 33. In 2016, Melo was 32. In 2020, Durant was 32 and you had 4 guys over the age of 30. I don't know why Lillard's or Butler's or Draymond's age is suddenly a problem considering the longevity is being extended more than ever. We're not asking guys to play 82 games + 4 seven game series, we're asking them to play basically 6 games. Sit the "old" guys in the exhibitions if need be. An injured version of AD probably plays better than JJJ did.

Let's call a spade a spade: they're not playing because they're not financially incentivized or particularly interested. It's an unspoken thing in the NBA that young guys do international play, whereas other teams are rolling out 40 year old Rudy Fernandez. Some players who were born and raised in the US (KAT) go to play for ethnic home countries.

But let's say none of those players I listed are part of the "pool". If you have even three of Fox, Booker, Tatum, and Morant on this team, they probably sweep the tournament. Or how about Caruso over Hart? Is Bobby Portis the best we can do at backup 4? Come now.

In 2012, USA almost lost to Lithuania. In 2020 (really 2021) they barely won the gold medal game, barely won it, and had 3 losses overall. They were lucky as hell to win the gold at the last Olympics. And that's with a team that would be a lot younger than the one people are proposing for 2024.

I said this before, when Argentina and Spain got old, and kept relying on the same players, ages 35-40, NBA fans said they were not capable of producing any talent, and all of their success was just from an old golden generation, and now they can't win with their younger players, because they can't produce good enough players anymore.

Now, that is exactly what everyone is saying USA needs to do..............using the same criteria and logic, it means USA can't produce players that are good enough to win anymore. Otherwise, you are not basing your hopes of winning around players in their mid to late 30s.

And Spain's players....Rudy is 38, Llull is 35, Claver is 35, Abrines is 30.......and people are proposing a USA Olympics team that would be older than that...

[Mirotic12]

The 35+ caveat does apply to most countries. Players like Rudy Fernandez, Luis Scola and Hamed Haddadi who play until their 40s are a rarity.

Finland's Peterri Koponen, for example, retired from the national team after last year's EuroBasket, a few months after he turned 34.

And if I was to look at my own country's national team, Greece, this is what I'd see:

Calathes and Sloukas played in 2022 but didn't play this year. They were 33 and 32 respectively at the time of their last appearance.

Bourousis and Printezis last played in 2019. Bourousis was 36 and Printezis was 34.

Spanoulis and Zisis last played in 2015. Spanoulis was 33 and Zisis was 32.

You see the pattern here, don't you? The majority of players does tend to limit stop playing after they hit the wrong side of 30 and they definitely stop when they go past 35. The ones who play to their very late 30s/early 40s are the exception, not the rule. And it does apply to every country.

They were forced off the team by the Panathinaikos rivalry though.

[perempe20]

Maybe I will follow german basketball, not just german orchestras.

[durden_tyler]

That’s changing the narrative but yeah. In the games that matter the US won all their games via blowout, before the close win in the final vs France (who was responsible with their sole loss).

You are making it sound like that they have a real challenge in that tourney (aside from France) but yeah whatever floats your boat.

[Mirotic12]

That’s changing the narrative but yeah. In the games that matter the US won all their games via blowout, before the close win in the final vs France (who was responsible with their sole loss).

You are making it sound like that they have a real challenge in that tourney (aside from France) but yeah whatever floats your boat.

It was like 85-82 with 30 seconds to go in the game, or something like that. And they lost 3 games overall. That 2021 USA Olympics team was easily the second worst Olympics team they ever had with the NBA players. Honestly, I seriously doubt that 2021 team could have won this world cup tournament. Add 2 years to that team, add 2 years to Durant, factor in Lillard was a disaster in FIBA...

That team probably finishes worse than this US team did. I mean they lost a game to Nigeria. Let's get serious here please. No way in hell would this 2023 US team have lost a game to Nigeria.

All this talk about the 2021 Olympics US team is like some high level revisionist history.

[UcanUwill]

This is still most talented roster on paper, not like Kerr was coaching a big underdog here. 2010 team was also B/C/D team, but K made it into dominant force, the second leading guy in minutes on that team was 2010 Chauncey Billups...

No way, 2010 team was more talented than this 2023 team is. And the 2014 team was much more talented.

Coach K failed with USA when he didn't have the best team in 1990.

2010 was better, but more talented? I dont know about that. Beside Durant, who was basically their Scola/Pau etc. the rest of the team were good, but meh? Again, a better team due to construction and coaching, but talent wise?

It was amazing Kevin Durant, and often, having such player is enough as we have seen. But other key players were : Old Billups who wasnt very good anymore, Young Westbrook, young Erick Gordon who never been very good anyway, YOung Derrick Rose before MVP and old Lamar Odom who was a mess already. Team had more old guys and that might as well helped. It had CUrry, but at time he had very minimal role. Iguodala was probably the second best player on that team from what I remember, but he played little minutes, he just was doing his role very well.

In few years Banchero, JJJ, Haliburton and AND will be superstar and we will look back at this team as more talented as it was. And it was pretty talented, it just played no defense and was losing rebounds. They never pressed the ball that much, they didnt attack switches, they ha dno bigmnen. Talented team at guard and forward positions, but didnt gel as well as it could. Kessler was wasted.

2006 was amazing team, but do not forget it is also hindsight. Carmelo, WAde, LeBron and especially Dwight and Paul were still green, they were very young. Kirk Hinrich was randomly on that team, and he was among team leaders in minutes in that Greece game. Elton Brand and Antwan Jamison were the only vets on that entire roster, players stuck on trashiest NBA teams at a time for their entire careers, no winning pedrigree there. it was just as young team as it gets, they didnt have Shaq or Duncan or KG, TMac, Kobe, Vince, We remember that team as A team now, but it was nothing of the sort.