The argument for Peak LeBron > Peak MJ

[OhayoKD]

Relative to the offenses he faced. As was pointed out, when talking about individuals and relative TS or DRtg or ORTg in playoffs, etc., we adjust to what these teams’s ORtg/DRtg/TS allowed, etc. You’re literally replying to a post that spells it out.

Ok. I'll play along...

Yay. Confused why everyone had to called out your bull half a dozen times, but better late than never!

The 1991 Bulls clearly had better offenses relative to opposition in the last two rounds against the tougher teams.

And the Cavs clearly had better defenses relative to opposition in the last two rounds against the better teams. Crazy.

Eh I don't see how these numbers help Lebron's argument much.

yet it took 3 pages for you to acknowledge them

It's also worth noting that the Warriors offense was even worse in the OKC series which casts doubts on the theory that the Cavs (and Lebron's) defense had extraordinary impact on the Warriors.

Hmm, interesting point. Maybe we should use measures that account for playoff performance?

Spoiler:

Playoff Offensive Rating: +11.43 (4th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -3.82 (68th)
Playoff SRS: +14.55 (8th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +5.84 (5th)
Shooting Advantage: +3.1%, Possession Advantage: +2.7 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +3.42 (16th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -2.33 (43rd)

LeBron James (SF, 31): 42 MPPG, 32% OLoad, 28 / 10 / 8 / 4 on +4.4%
Kyrie Irving (PG, 23): 40 MPPG, 30% OLoad, 27 / 3 / 5 / 3 on +3.3%
Kevin Love (C, 27): 33 MPPG, 22% OLoad, 16 / 9 / 2 / 1 on -0.2%
J.R. Smith (SG, 30): 37 MPPG, 13% OLoad, 12 / 3 / 2 / 2 on +7.2%
Tristan Thompson (PF, 24): 32 MPPG, 10% OLoad, 7 / 10 / 1 / 1 on +1.8%

Scoring/100: LeBron James (35.6 / +4.4%), Kyrie Irving (36.3 / +3.3%), Kevin Love (25.3 / -0.2%)
Assists/100: LeBron James (10.3), Kyrie Irving (6.7), Kevin Love (3.6)

Playoff Heliocentrism: 44.3% (15th of 84 teams) - LeBron
Playoff Wingmen: 37.7% (65th) - Irving & Love
Playoff Depth: 18.0% (59th)

Round 1: Detroit Pistons (+0.4), won 4-0, by +8.5 points per game (+8.9 SRS eq)
Round 2: Atlanta Hawks (+5.5), won 4-0, by +12.5 points per game (+18.0 SRS eq)
Round 3: Toronto Raptors (+4.0), won 4-2, by +15.5 points per game (+19.5 SRS eq)
Round 4: Golden State Warriors (+11.0), won 4-3, by +0.5 points per game (+11.5 SRS eq)

Wait, what? The cavs defense looks better? Gee, I wonder if there was some context for the Warriors being "stopped" by OKC. Maybe, just maybe it might have something to do with OKC also having a case for being better than any team Jordan has beat(psrs, full-strength srs) and the Warriors still beating them despite Curry coming fresh off his injury? Fun fact, the warriors rolling rating includes games Steph didn't play.

Of course, all of this has been presented to you. But per usual you chose to ignore it because you know full well it makes Lebron look better.

Lebron's teams were also worse without him on both ends of the floor indicating that his team had less talent than Jordan's. Crazy, it's almost like he's...better at basketball?

And the boxscore is not kind to Lebron.

Conventional box-score interpretations, no. But what if we used something more like what is used in soccer?

-> progressive passes -> lebron
-> progressive carries -> lebron
-> chances created -> lebron
-> long-passes -> lebron
-> crosses completed -> lebron
-> passes completed -> lebron
-> dribbles completed -> lebron
-> assists -> lebron
-> touches -> lebron
xT -> Lebron
xA -> Lebron
shots per score -> lebron
-> tackles -> jordan
-> blocks -> jordan
-> less turnovers -> jordan
-> scores per game -> jordan(tbf this favors messi a bit)

You are basically arguing Ronaldo was a much better offensive player than Messi because of g/a. Great stuff

Also a fan of...

If LeBron had only managed to shoot his 09-18 regular season averages from 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3pt during the 2009 playoffs, his points scored from mid range would've plummeted from 104 to 95.2. His points per game would've gone from a staggering 35.3 to a measly 34.7! Just a complete fluke! Grounds to disqualify the season altogether, really.

I'm not the one who mentioned his midrange shooting when saying that the 2009 postseason is an outlier but why include 3-10 feet? No one considers 3-10 feet as midrange.

And including later years when he shot better from midrange is not good analysis.

In the 2009 playoffs:

Lebron took 18 shots from 10-16 feet and shot 44.4% scoring 16 points.
Lebron took 74 shots from 16-23 feet and shot 48.9% scoring 72 points.

In the 2009 regular season he shot 28.6% from 10-16 feet and 38.8% from 16-23 feet. If he shot at those % in the playoffs he would have scored about 10 points from 10-16 feet and 57 points from 16-23 feet. All in all he would have scored 21 fewer points which brings him from 35.3 ppg down to 33.8 ppg. It also brings down his efficiency from 61.8 %TS to 59.2 %TS. That's a noticeable drop.

Oh wow, merely a 5 point improvement over his regular-season numbers when he hard carried a +8 srs, 66-win team despite his best defensive teammate being washed for half the season. Yeah, noticeable. noticeably desperate.

And the best part?

1991 certainly seems like an outlier for MJ on the playmaking front. If 1991 MJ isn't consider an outlier on the playmaking front, than neither should Lebron's 09 run as a scorer.

I'm also not certain how Play-Val is calculated over multi-year stretches, but the gap becomes really apparent when you look at 3-year stretches.

Lebron, Magic, and Nash are tied for #1 at +2.5 over 3-year PS PlayVal Peaks. They are the best of the best.

Jordan best 3-year PlaVal stretch is +1.9.

Per ScoreVal (Scoring value, an estimate of a player’s points per 100 impact from scoring only.), Lebron's best scoring run is in 14, where he is a +3.7. 09 Lebron is a +3.5. Both of these runs are better than any Jordan run by ScoreVal. I don't think you would argue Lebron is a better scorer than MJ, so I think you see where I am going with this.

The gap between them as scorers is actually smaller than the gap between them as playmakers, if we go by the ScoreVal/PlayVal Metrics.


Lebron has a a +.8 lead in Single-Year PS ScoreVal peaks.

Jordan only has a +.01 lead in Single-Year PS PlayVal peaks.


Lebron has a +.6 lead in 3-year PS PlayVal peaks.

Jordan has a +.4 lead in 3-year PS ScoreVal peaks.

If we use Ben Taylor's metrics...

Lebron is also ahead of MJ in g/a. In fact the only reason there's even an argument here by these box-metrics is that they view Jordan as a comparable or better defender.

And that is all, if we take those numbers at face-value. As it so happens, there's precedent for not great passers seeing their assists, box-creation, and passer-rating jump as they face less defensive attention and consequently create less:

Spoiler:

Okay. How about against 2017 Kawhi Leonard(notably bad among superstars at this point) in a year you say KD's playmaking improved:


I don't know about you, but Kawhi seems to be creating more. I'd also be careful assuming KD meaningfully improved as a playmaker just because he completed passes before a score more frequently

is that how you're describing a 49/17/10 playoff game on 82 TS%? as "left in single coverage". also, the 10 assists make it seem hard to think he wasn't seeing some doubles.

Are you under the impression that players can't rack up assist counts without being doubled? KD is like, the textbook example of that assumption being dumb...

KD's assists and ast% went up going to Golden State. Stockton literally built his whole legacy of passing, out of single-coverage, to a guy who didn't have any assist-cancelling moves. Extra defensive attention is important for creation, not assist-racking. While a teammate is more likely to score while more open, It's easier to pass by a single guy than multiple. And KD often sees his assisting go up when the opposing team isn't keying in.

In fact the very next postseason, with a Celtics team that was keying in, his raw assists barely went up while his ast% dropped from 26 to 22.

Great playmakers consistently see a trade-off as they can pass by multiple defenders consistently. KD sucks vs doubles so the opposite often happens...
[/quote]
KD's pass attempts, opposing defensive attention, touches with the ball, and average-time per touch all went down. Was KD really offering more playmaking in gsw than he was in okc? How? It certainly wasn't a matter of him overcoming his limitations as a slasher:


You say KD was a better playmaker but I think what actually happened is KD looked better with a reduced role, and that gets us back to Erving.

And yes, this also applies to the guy from Portugal

Tl/Dr. But, as someone that watched both careers and was a fanboy for neither my opinion is that Jordan was a cut above Lebron.

elaborate? How exactly did you come to the conclusion that bball Ronaldo was a cut above bball Messi at his best?

[lessthanjake]

Where does this analogy to Messi and Ronaldo come from? It’s not a very apt one. The reason that Messi is superior to Ronaldo is largely something that doesn’t really find an analogy in basketball. Messi’s superiority rests largely in contributing massively to whole phases of play that Ronaldo was largely uninvolved in (especially as Ronaldo aged—this is less true in the 2008-2012 time period, and there was less of a gap between the two back then, despite Ballon D’or voting suggesting the opposite). Messi drops deep to create midfield overloads to help the team keep possession in midfield, he progresses the ball into the final third and into dangerous areas, and he also playmakes from those deep positions. That’s what gets reflected in stats like xT, progressive passes, progressive carries, etc. Ronaldo doesn’t do that stuff, and in time periods of a match where Messi would be doing that stuff, Ronaldo is largely just sitting around waiting for others to progress the ball far enough for him to make a run. And yet, in the later phase of play where the team is going for goal, Messi still contributes similarly to Ronaldo in terms of goals. There’s not really an analogy to basketball, because a basketball court is way smaller than a soccer pitch, so there’s not any phase of play that some players are simply not really involved in (indeed, there’s not really phases of play at all like there is in soccer). One player might have the ball more than another player, but everyone on the court is very relevant to what’s going on all the time (especially guys like LeBron and Jordan). No one is standing around waiting for the team to get the basketball anywhere near the basket so that they can actually do something. So there’s just no analogy possible with two guys in a different sport where the difference between them really is that one guy is often just not really part of the game at all while the other is. Perhaps there’d be a valid analogy if basketball were completely different and it was actually genuinely difficult to get the ball past half-court or past the three-point line, and one guy was elite at making that happen while another guy just was uninvolved in that and just sat in the paint waiting for the rest of the team to do it.

[OhayoKD]

Where does this analogy to Messi and Ronaldo come from? It’s not a very apt one. The reason that Messi is superior to Ronaldo is largely something that doesn’t really find an analogy in basketball. Messi’s superiority rests largely in contributing massively to whole phases of play that Ronaldo was largely uninvolved in

*uninvolved "on-ball".

Lebron, contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi. The comparison is very apt. And it should only be controversial for those who rely on slashlines to assess players. Incidentally ronaldo and messi was only a debate for those relying on g/a.

[lessthanjake]

Where does this analogy to Messi and Ronaldo come from? It’s not a very apt one. The reason that Messi is superior to Ronaldo is largely something that doesn’t really find an analogy in basketball. Messi’s superiority rests largely in contributing massively to whole phases of play that Ronaldo was largely uninvolved in

*uninvolved in "on-ball".

Lebron, contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi. The comparison is very apt. And it should only be controversial for those who reliant on slashlines to assess players.

Every star player in basketball contributes more to all phases of play than Messi does, because basketball is a 5v5 sport on a small court and soccer is a 11v11 sport on a large pitch. This is just a weird analogy.

[OhayoKD]

Where does this analogy to Messi and Ronaldo come from? It’s not a very apt one. The reason that Messi is superior to Ronaldo is largely something that doesn’t really find an analogy in basketball. Messi’s superiority rests largely in contributing massively to whole phases of play that Ronaldo was largely uninvolved in

*uninvolved in "on-ball".

Lebron, contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi. The comparison is very apt. And it should only be controversial for those who reliant on slashlines to assess players.

Every star player in basketball contributes more to all phases of play than Messi does, because basketball is a 5v5 sport on a small court and soccer is a 11v11 sport on a large pitch. This is just a weird analogy.

Not really no. Jordan in the triangle contributed far less until the --final-- phase of play. That is why if the box-score included all those things that make people go goo-gah over lionel, all your silly box-aggregates would suddenly view this as a blowout. Lebron literally progresses the ball vastly more. He completes progessives passes vastly more. He runs his team on both sides of the floor. The assertion that "jordan does everything but lebron does but scores better" is complete and utter bull built on the same foundation of the argument for Ronaldo's parity with Messi.

That is why when Lebron posts merely "jordan-lvl" PER as he wins 66 wins and then jumps up 5(that is the "adjust for hot shooting mark") points, it is beyond **** laughable to imply the two are comparable.

If you are not willing to discuss ronaldo over messi, then there is no reason to entertain micheal vs lebron

[lessthanjake]

*uninvolved in "on-ball".

Lebron, contributes more to all the phases of play than Messi does. And he is of course a defensive anchor unlike messi. The comparison is very apt. And it should only be controversial for those who reliant on slashlines to assess players.

Every star player in basketball contributes more to all phases of play than Messi does, because basketball is a 5v5 sport on a small court and soccer is a 11v11 sport on a large pitch. This is just a weird analogy.

Not really no. Jordan in the triangle contributed far less until the --final-- phase of play. That is why if the box-score included all those things that make people go goo-gah over lionel, all your silly box-aggregates would suddenly view this as a blowout. Lebron literally progresses the ball vastly more. He completes progessives passes vastly more. He runs his team on both sides of the floor. The assertion that "jordan does everything but lebron does but scores better" is complete and utter bull built on the same foundation of the argument for Ronaldo's parity with Messi.

That is why when Lebron posts merely "jordan-lvl" PER as he wins 66 wins and then jumps up 5(that is the "adjust for hot shooting mark") points, it is beyond **** laughable to imply the two are comparable.

If you are not willing to discuss ronaldo over messi, then there is no reason to entertain micheal vs lebron

I don’t think you’ve got a strong understanding of soccer if you’re equating anything that happens in basketball to “progressive passes” in soccer. These are incredibly different sports and there’s simply no analogy to the midfield phase of play in basketball. There’s no meaningful phase of play in basketball where the team is just trying to get the ball to an area of the court from which it is even possible to score. And it’s that phase of play that distinguishes Messi from Ronaldo. You also really don’t know what you’re talking about if you’re equating Ronaldo standing on the shoulder of the last defender waiting for his team to progress the ball to an area of the pitch in which he can do something to a star player being off the ball on offense in basketball. You’re really stretching to make an analogy that doesn’t work. These are two very different sports, and the idea that if someone thinks Messi>Ronaldo then they must think LeBron>Jordan is just complete nonsense.

[70sFan]

Yeah, football analogy doesn't make much sense in basketball context to me.

[OhayoKD]

Every star player in basketball contributes more to all phases of play than Messi does, because basketball is a 5v5 sport on a small court and soccer is a 11v11 sport on a large pitch. This is just a weird analogy.

Not really no. Jordan in the triangle contributed far less until the --final-- phase of play. That is why if the box-score included all those things that make people go goo-gah over lionel, all your silly box-aggregates would suddenly view this as a blowout. Lebron literally progresses the ball vastly more. He completes progessives passes vastly more. He runs his team on both sides of the floor. The assertion that "jordan does everything but lebron does but scores better" is complete and utter bull built on the same foundation of the argument for Ronaldo's parity with Messi.

That is why when Lebron posts merely "jordan-lvl" PER as he wins 66 wins and then jumps up 5(that is the "adjust for hot shooting mark") points, it is beyond **** laughable to imply the two are comparable.

If you are not willing to discuss ronaldo over messi, then there is no reason to entertain micheal vs lebron

I don’t think you’ve got a strong understanding of soccer

Stronger than yours sadly.

if you’re equating anything that happens in basketball to “progressive passes” in soccer. These are incredibly different sports and there’s simply no analogy to the midfield phase of play in basketball.

Ooh, "simply". You are playing word-games. Driving past defenders in basketball is more impactful then doing it in soccer due to it being 5 v 5. If they are not anagalous then you need to specify where it breaks. I can put a "middle" phase to anything. Lebron does more to break defenses before the end of a possession. The analogy holds

You’re really stretching

Not nearly as far as you:

If LeBron had only managed to shoot his 09-18 regular season averages from 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3pt during the 2009 playoffs, his points scored from mid range would've plummeted from 104 to 95.2. His points per game would've gone from a staggering 35.3 to a measly 34.7! Just a complete fluke! Grounds to disqualify the season altogether, really.

But maybe i shouldn't protest. You played this game with hakeem a few weeks ago and managed to turn just about everyone involved against Micheal. You misused SRS against Russell and voters who favored mj turned to russell for peak, prime, and career.

You are generally confident and generally wrong. A magic combination that generates remarkable results.

So please, proceed. I'm sure the worst is yet to come.

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, football analogy doesn't make much sense in basketball context to me.

Then where does it break. I'm not interested in semantics. Why is it meaningful that Messi does more at the start or middle of an attack than Ronaldo but mysteriously not meaningful that Lebron does more than Jordan?

Let's be honest. If basketball was covered like soccer, anyone arguing for Jordan would have been ridiculed like Shaka. Remember when that dumbass yank nt director critcized messi for being a ball-hog and lowering his team's cieling when argenetina didn't win? Absolutely no one took that bull seriously. But of course for 90's mythmakers, it's a very serious critique for Lebron.

[lessthanjake]

Not really no. Jordan in the triangle contributed far less until the --final-- phase of play. That is why if the box-score included all those things that make people go goo-gah over lionel, all your silly box-aggregates would suddenly view this as a blowout. Lebron literally progresses the ball vastly more. He completes progessives passes vastly more. He runs his team on both sides of the floor. The assertion that "jordan does everything but lebron does but scores better" is complete and utter bull built on the same foundation of the argument for Ronaldo's parity with Messi.

That is why when Lebron posts merely "jordan-lvl" PER as he wins 66 wins and then jumps up 5(that is the "adjust for hot shooting mark") points, it is beyond **** laughable to imply the two are comparable.

If you are not willing to discuss ronaldo over messi, then there is no reason to entertain micheal vs lebron

I don’t think you’ve got a strong understanding of soccer

Stronger than yours sadly.

if you’re equating anything that happens in basketball to “progressive passes” in soccer. These are incredibly different sports and there’s simply no analogy to the midfield phase of play in basketball.

Ooh, "simply". You are playing word-games. Driving past defenders in basketball is more impactful then doing it in soccer due to it being 5 v 5. If they are not anagalous then you need to specify where it breaks. I can put a "middle" phase to anything. Lebron does more to break defenses before the end of a possession. The analogy holds

You’re really stretching

Not nearly as far as you:

If LeBron had only managed to shoot his 09-18 regular season averages from 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3pt during the 2009 playoffs, his points scored from mid range would've plummeted from 104 to 95.2. His points per game would've gone from a staggering 35.3 to a measly 34.7! Just a complete fluke! Grounds to disqualify the season altogether, really.

But maybe i shouldn't protest. You played this game with hakeem a few weeks ago and managed to turn just about everyone involved against Micheal. You misused SRS against Russell and voters who favored mj turned to russell for peak, prime, and career.

You are generally confident and generally wrong. A magic combination that generates remarkable results.

So please, proceed. I'm sure the worst is yet to come.

I don’t think discussion here with you about this is productive. You don’t know what you are talking about and are making a useless analogy. I think anyone with a remote understanding of both sports will come to that same conclusion, and if someone doesn’t have an understanding of soccer then they won’t understand your analogy anyways. So I don’t really think it’s worth continuing to talk about since it’s really just a bad argument that is not going to convince anyone.

If you want to argue that LeBron “does more” than Jordan, then that’s fine—you can aim to make that argument. But some tortured analogy to soccer where you say that if Messi>Ronaldo then LeBron>Jordan is really just complete nonsense.

[70sFan]

Yeah, football analogy doesn't make much sense in basketball context to me.

Then where does it break. I'm not interested in semantics. Why is it meaningful that Messi does more at the start or middle of an attack than Ronaldo but mysteriously not meaningful that Lebron does more than Jordan?

Let's be honest. If basketball was covered like soccer, anyone arguing for Jordan would have been ridiculed like Shaka. Remember when that dumbass yank nt director critcized messi for being a ball-hog and lowering his team's cieling when argenetina didn't win? Absolutely no one took that bull seriously. But of course for 90's mythmakers, it's a very serious critique for Lebron.

Football is so much different that saying "someone does more" means only just that, nothing else. This analogy is pointless, you could just say that you think LeBron does more I'm action than Jordan.

[OhayoKD]

I don’t think you’ve got a strong understanding of soccer

Stronger than yours sadly.

if you’re equating anything that happens in basketball to “progressive passes” in soccer. These are incredibly different sports and there’s simply no analogy to the midfield phase of play in basketball.

Ooh, "simply". You are playing word-games. Driving past defenders in basketball is more impactful then doing it in soccer due to it being 5 v 5. If they are not anagalous then you need to specify where it breaks. I can put a "middle" phase to anything. Lebron does more to break defenses before the end of a possession. The analogy holds

You’re really stretching

Not nearly as far as you:

If LeBron had only managed to shoot his 09-18 regular season averages from 3-10, 10-16, and 16-3pt during the 2009 playoffs, his points scored from mid range would've plummeted from 104 to 95.2. His points per game would've gone from a staggering 35.3 to a measly 34.7! Just a complete fluke! Grounds to disqualify the season altogether, really.

But maybe i shouldn't protest. You played this game with hakeem a few weeks ago and managed to turn just about everyone involved against Micheal. You misused SRS against Russell and voters who favored mj turned to russell for peak, prime, and career.

You are generally confident and generally wrong. A magic combination that generates remarkable results.

So please, proceed. I'm sure the worst is yet to come.

I don’t think discussion here with you about this is productive. You don’t know what you are talking about and are making a useless analogy. I think anyone with a remote understanding of both sports will come to that same conclusion, and if someone doesn’t have an understanding of soccer then they won’t understand your analogy anyways. So I don’t really think it’s worth continuing to talk about since it’s really just a bad argument that is not going to convince anyone.

Oh come now, Mr. Harvard. You and I both know that's "simply" not true.

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, football analogy doesn't make much sense in basketball context to me.

Then where does it break. I'm not interested in semantics. Why is it meaningful that Messi does more at the start or middle of an attack than Ronaldo but mysteriously not meaningful that Lebron does more than Jordan?

Let's be honest. If basketball was covered like soccer, anyone arguing for Jordan would have been ridiculed like Shaka. Remember when that dumbass yank nt director critcized messi for being a ball-hog and lowering his team's cieling when argenetina didn't win? Absolutely no one took that bull seriously. But of course for 90's mythmakers, it's a very serious critique for Lebron.

Football is so much different that saying "someone does more" means only just that, nothing else. This analogy is pointless, you could just say that you think LeBron does more I'm action than Jordan.

Still no specifics. Do you know what a "progressive carry" means? Do you know what a "progressive pass" is? Those definitions easily transpose to basketball. And lebron does both far more. The only question here is if the value of those actions is lesser in basketball, and I see no reason to think that. We even have specific metrics that count for the number of defenders in a position like IMPECT. That too tranposes easily to basketball. It is in fact the same principle behind oppurtunities created. Every stat i listed follows a definition that transposes directly to hoops. No one here has offered an actual reason why it is invalid to count those stats in basketball but not invalid to count them to soccer. And they capture the bulk of messi's "magic" that somehow mysteriously mapped to Jordan.

For the analogy to be pointless, Ronaldo needs to not trouble defenses off the ball or all these things helios do need to not matter in basketball(yet mysteriously generate the best offense).

If you are not willing to dispute either bit, I'm not sure what your complaint is beyond what the massive difference in perception implies...)

[70sFan]

Then where does it break. I'm not interested in semantics. Why is it meaningful that Messi does more at the start or middle of an attack than Ronaldo but mysteriously not meaningful that Lebron does more than Jordan?

Let's be honest. If basketball was covered like soccer, anyone arguing for Jordan would have been ridiculed like Shaka. Remember when that dumbass yank nt director critcized messi for being a ball-hog and lowering his team's cieling when argenetina didn't win? Absolutely no one took that bull seriously. But of course for 90's mythmakers, it's a very serious critique for Lebron.

Football is so much different that saying "someone does more" means only just that, nothing else. This analogy is pointless, you could just say that you think LeBron does more I'm action than Jordan.

Still no specifics. Do you know what a "progressive carry" means? Do you know what a "progressive pass" is? Those definitions easily transpose to basketball. And lebron does both far more. The only question here is if the value of those actions is lesser in basketball, and I see no reason to think that. We even have specific metrics that count for the number of defenders in a position like IMPECT. That too tranposes easily to basketball. It is in fact the same principle behind oppurtunities created. Every stat i listed follows a definition that transposes directly to hoops. No one here has offered an actual reason why it is invalid to count those stats in basketball but not invalid to count them to soccer. And they capture the bulk of messi's "magic" that somehow mysteriously mapped to Jordan.

For the analogy to be pointless, Ronaldo needs to not trouble defenses off the ball or all these things helios do need to not matter in basketball(yet mysteriously generate the best offense).

If you are not willing to dispute either bit, I'm not sure what your complaint is beyond what the massive difference in perception implies...)

There is no analogy between progressive passes in football and anything related to basketball. Basketball playmaking and football playmaking is nothing alike. Football goal scoring is not comparable to basketball scoring. Sorry, but brining up completely different sport in another pointless Jordan Vs James debate brings no value.

[OhayoKD]

Football is so much different that saying "someone does more" means only just that, nothing else. This analogy is pointless, you could just say that you think LeBron does more I'm action than Jordan.

Still no specifics. Do you know what a "progressive carry" means? Do you know what a "progressive pass" is? Those definitions easily transpose to basketball. And lebron does both far more. The only question here is if the value of those actions is lesser in basketball, and I see no reason to think that. We even have specific metrics that count for the number of defenders in a position like IMPECT. That too tranposes easily to basketball. It is in fact the same principle behind oppurtunities created. Every stat i listed follows a definition that transposes directly to hoops. No one here has offered an actual reason why it is invalid to count those stats in basketball but not invalid to count them to soccer. And they capture the bulk of messi's "magic" that somehow mysteriously mapped to Jordan.

For the analogy to be pointless, Ronaldo needs to not trouble defenses off the ball or all these things helios do need to not matter in basketball(yet mysteriously generate the best offense).

If you are not willing to dispute either bit, I'm not sure what your complaint is beyond what the massive difference in perception implies...)

There is no analogy between progressive passes in football and anything related to basketball.

What? You pass the ball forward. The ball is closer to the basket. You have also potentially taken defenders out of the play. Is this a bit?

Basketball playmaking and football playmaking is nothing alike.

Does the chance of your team scoring go up when you
-> take defenders out of the play?
-> take the ball closer to the basket/goal?
-> generate a higher-percentage look?

Yes?

Cool, it is indeed "alike". And you using "nothing" is a tell your issue here is with what is implied, not with the actual reasoning.

Sorry, but brining up completely different sport in another pointless Jordan Vs James debate is bring no value.

Pointless to you. But the reality is a two-way version of lionel messi somehow has never gained significant traction as peaking potentially higher anywhere than ronaldo until a year ago. I'd say that reflects

A. The gigantic negative bias the current narrative crafters/marketers of this league have towards the current product and current players

B. The gigantic negative bias towards pre-80's players the current narrative crafters/marketers

C. How backwards the coverage of this sport is relative to soccer where modern players are celebrated, analytics are not just centered on scoring and assisting, and bull is not continuously spewed so the kids who grew up watching the sport 40 years ago can tear down everything else down to make themselves feel better

Wuuke, and hcl seemed to understand the analogy just fine. And I'm pretty sure you understand it too.

[70sFan]

Yeah, playmaking is giving a higher chance to score, that's the definition of playmaking. If that's where your analogy ends, then you proved my point.

Again, feel free to waist your time on another pointless Jordan vs James debate, feel free to do so. Don't accuse people who actually watch football of bias or lack of knowledge though, just to force your agenda.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yeah, playmaking is giving a higher chance to score, that's the definition of playmaking. If that's where your analogy ends, then you proved my point.

Again, feel free to waist your time on another pointless Jordan vs James debate, feel free to do so. Don't accuse people who actually watch football of bias or lack of knowledge though, just to force your agenda.

I love going to long threads like this looking at the end just to see how off the rails it’s gone

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, playmaking is giving a higher chance to score, that's the definition of playmaking. If that's where your analogy ends, then you proved my point.

No. The point was "making things easier to score" does not start at the end of the possession. Since you and ltj were so kind to imply I don't know ball, explain to me where the analogy **** breaks.

Again, feel free to waist your time on another pointless Jordan vs James debate, feel free to do so. Don't accuse people who actually watch football of bias or lack of knowledge though, just to force your agenda.

Feel free to "waist" everyone's time moralizing what is acceptable to "push" or "argue", but when you show rather clearly you have no clue what something is...

There is no analogy between progressive passes in football and anything related to basketball.

Do not imply I don't watch soccer because you don't want to acknowledge your initial claim was nonsense

[70sFan]

Yeah, there are moments I am glad I spend less time on the board recently. It is one of these moments.

[OhayoKD]

Yeah, there are moments I am glad I spend less time on the board recently. It is one of these moments.

Perhaps this moment wouldn't exist if you didn't waste a page arguing that passing a ball forward is a "completely different" in soccer than basketball because it's a "completely different sport". Jesus **** christ.