Playoff series where the team with the two best players lost?

[SpreeS]

2004 Kobe/O'Neal vs Detroit
1996 Stockton/malone vs Seatle
1995 Kemp/Payton vs Lakers
1993 Stockton/Malone vs Seatle
1992 Stockton/Malone vs Portland
1991 Stockton/Malone vs Portland
1990 Stockton/Malone vs Phoenix
1990 Magic/Worthy vs Phoenix
2021 Lebron/Davis vs Phoenix
2014 Durant/Westbrook vs San Antonio
2005 Wade/O'Neal vs Detroit
1970 Wilt/West vs NY
1971 Frazier/Reed vs Washington

[Djoker]

2004 Kobe/O'Neal vs Detroit
1996 Stockton/malone vs Seatle
1995 Kemp/Payton vs Lakers
1993 Stockton/Malone vs Seatle
1992 Stockton/Malone vs Portland
1991 Stockton/Malone vs Portland
1990 Stockton/Malone vs Phoenix
1990 Magic/Worthy vs Phoenix
2021 Lebron/Davis vs Phoenix
2014 Durant/Westbrook vs San Antonio
2005 Wade/O'Neal vs Detroit
1970 Wilt/West vs NY
1971 Frazier/Reed vs Washington

Solid list although Drexler was better than Stockton to me.

[wojoaderge]

1981 Kansas City over Phoenix

Debatable

[Doctor MJ]

T-Mac/Yao seems a likely candidate on a few occasions.

Rough truth here:

There are a number of series where you can make a solid argument that TMac & Yao were the two best basketball talents, and in all cases, they lost.

Meanwhile, in 2009 the Rockets broke through in a series where the leading scorers were:

Brandon Roy (not Houston)
LaMarcus Aldridge (not Houston)
Luis Scola (Houston)

What does it say when a team always seems to underachieve with their two superstar talents and then actually gets further when led by neither?

[LukaTheGOAT]

2021 Lakers vs Suns you could argue. Although AD didn't play the whole series.

[Owly]

T-Mac/Yao seems a likely candidate on a few occasions.

Rough truth here:

There are a number of series where you can make a solid argument that TMac & Yao were the two best basketball talents, and in all cases, they lost.

Meanwhile, in 2009 the Rockets broke through in a series where the leading scorers were:

Brandon Roy (not Houston)
LaMarcus Aldridge (not Houston)
Luis Scola (Houston)

What does it say when a team always seems to underachieve with their two superstar talents and then actually gets further when led by neither?

Perhaps nothing about the players ...

That Shane Battier (30) and Ron Artest/Metta World Peace/Metta Sandiford-Artest (29) are better "not the star" minutes leaders than David Wesley (34) and Jon Barry (35)?

That the effect of some effective McGrady defense on Nowitzki (going anecdotal here, open to it being wrong - Nowitzki definitely shot poorly) can be undone by Jason Terry shooting .606 from three. That maybe not having a starter quality 4 and losing the rebound battle could be costly in a close series.

That starting from a binary W-L team level outcome ...

Individual series are small samples.

That the truth is complex and rarely fully captured by a simplistic narrative?


fwiw ... I could imagine Yao's D being less effective in the playoffs against a team that knows this night and the next night there's going to be a giant in the paint. Still I don't think starting from 2 (pretty close) series losses (1 probably expected, the second a mild upset where after Battier, everyone in the rotations PER is sub 11, BPM is 0 or below and Luther Head is in your rotation but playing like he shouldn't be) as a sign of some great failure is ... a great process.

[Doctor MJ]

T-Mac/Yao seems a likely candidate on a few occasions.

Rough truth here:

There are a number of series where you can make a solid argument that TMac & Yao were the two best basketball talents, and in all cases, they lost.

Meanwhile, in 2009 the Rockets broke through in a series where the leading scorers were:

Brandon Roy (not Houston)
LaMarcus Aldridge (not Houston)
Luis Scola (Houston)

What does it say when a team always seems to underachieve with their two superstar talents and then actually gets further when led by neither?

Perhaps nothing about the players ...

That Shane Battier (30) and Ron Artest/Metta World Peace/Metta Sandiford-Artest (29) are better "not the star" minutes leaders than David Wesley (34) and Jon Barry (35)?

That the effect of some effective McGrady defense on Nowitzki (going anecdotal here, open to it being wrong - Nowitzki definitely shot poorly) can be undone by Jason Terry shooting .606 from three. That maybe not having a starter quality 4 and losing the rebound battle could be costly in a close series.

That starting from a binary W-L team level outcome ...

Individual series are small samples.

That the truth is complex and rarely fully captured by a simplistic narrative?


fwiw ... I could imagine Yao's D being less effective in the playoffs against a team that knows this night and the next night there's going to be a giant in the paint. Still I don't think starting from 2 (pretty close) series losses (1 probably expected, the second a mild upset where after Battier, everyone in the rotations PER is sub 11, BPM is 0 or below and Luther Head is in your rotation but playing like he shouldn't be) as a sign of some great failure is ... a great process.

You're quite right that an explanation of the supporting cast just being more talented is a plausible one in general.

Of course, Battier was there prior to that season, and the team had performed better in earlier regular seasons prior to Artest's arrival.

The truth is complex, and I would say that it has a lot to do with fit and strategy, but I do think when we look back we also need to understand that TMac spent most of his career, and all of his Houston career, as a negative TS Add guy. When an inefficient volume scorer goes away and a team proves surprisingly resilient, it isn't necessarily that big of a surprise.

[Doctor MJ]

2021 Lakers vs Suns you could argue. Although AD didn't play the whole series.

And of course, they were winning until AD got hurt.

[Owly]

Rough truth here:

There are a number of series where you can make a solid argument that TMac & Yao were the two best basketball talents, and in all cases, they lost.

Meanwhile, in 2009 the Rockets broke through in a series where the leading scorers were:

Brandon Roy (not Houston)
LaMarcus Aldridge (not Houston)
Luis Scola (Houston)

What does it say when a team always seems to underachieve with their two superstar talents and then actually gets further when led by neither?

Perhaps nothing about the players ...

That Shane Battier (30) and Ron Artest/Metta World Peace/Metta Sandiford-Artest (29) are better "not the star" minutes leaders than David Wesley (34) and Jon Barry (35)?

That the effect of some effective McGrady defense on Nowitzki (going anecdotal here, open to it being wrong - Nowitzki definitely shot poorly) can be undone by Jason Terry shooting .606 from three. That maybe not having a starter quality 4 and losing the rebound battle could be costly in a close series.

That starting from a binary W-L team level outcome ...

Individual series are small samples.

That the truth is complex and rarely fully captured by a simplistic narrative?


fwiw ... I could imagine Yao's D being less effective in the playoffs against a team that knows this night and the next night there's going to be a giant in the paint. Still I don't think starting from 2 (pretty close) series losses (1 probably expected, the second a mild upset where after Battier, everyone in the rotations PER is sub 11, BPM is 0 or below and Luther Head is in your rotation but playing like he shouldn't be) as a sign of some great failure is ... a great process.

You're quite right that an explanation of the supporting cast just being more talented is a plausible one in general.

Of course, Battier was there prior to that season, and the team had performed better in earlier regular seasons prior to Artest's arrival.

The truth is complex, and I would say that it has a lot to do with fit and strategy, but I do think when we look back we also need to understand that TMac spent most of his career, and all of his Houston career, as a negative TS Add guy. When an inefficient volume scorer goes away and a team proves surprisingly resilient, it isn't necessarily that big of a surprise.

When late career McGrady is replaced by more prime Battier and Artest. When the scorer and David Wesley and old Jon Barry (or Luther Head) go away ...

No McGrady wasn't an efficient shooter. But he was low turnover. And he did have a not insignificant creation burden for others. I'm not a huge booster for Houston McGrady. At the same time I'd say the Scola, Hayes, Landry, Brooks, Lowry cast had multiple bench players better than some earlier teams starters. So before kicking McGrady I'd want something more like evidence that he was a problem for these playoffs rather than someone often putting up valiant efforts on under-talented teams.

[Doctor MJ]

Perhaps nothing about the players ...

That Shane Battier (30) and Ron Artest/Metta World Peace/Metta Sandiford-Artest (29) are better "not the star" minutes leaders than David Wesley (34) and Jon Barry (35)?

That the effect of some effective McGrady defense on Nowitzki (going anecdotal here, open to it being wrong - Nowitzki definitely shot poorly) can be undone by Jason Terry shooting .606 from three. That maybe not having a starter quality 4 and losing the rebound battle could be costly in a close series.

That starting from a binary W-L team level outcome ...

Individual series are small samples.

That the truth is complex and rarely fully captured by a simplistic narrative?


fwiw ... I could imagine Yao's D being less effective in the playoffs against a team that knows this night and the next night there's going to be a giant in the paint. Still I don't think starting from 2 (pretty close) series losses (1 probably expected, the second a mild upset where after Battier, everyone in the rotations PER is sub 11, BPM is 0 or below and Luther Head is in your rotation but playing like he shouldn't be) as a sign of some great failure is ... a great process.

You're quite right that an explanation of the supporting cast just being more talented is a plausible one in general.

Of course, Battier was there prior to that season, and the team had performed better in earlier regular seasons prior to Artest's arrival.

The truth is complex, and I would say that it has a lot to do with fit and strategy, but I do think when we look back we also need to understand that TMac spent most of his career, and all of his Houston career, as a negative TS Add guy. When an inefficient volume scorer goes away and a team proves surprisingly resilient, it isn't necessarily that big of a surprise.

When late career McGrady is replaced by more prime Battier and Artest. When the scorer and David Wesley and old Jon Barry (or Luther Head) go away ...

No McGrady wasn't an efficient shooter. But he was low turnover. And he did have a not insignificant creation burden for others. I'm not a huge booster for Houston McGrady. At the same time I'd say the Scola, Hayes, Landry, Brooks, Lowry cast had multiple bench players better than some earlier teams starters. So before kicking McGrady I'd want something more like evidence that he was a problem for these playoffs rather than someone often putting up valiant efforts on under-talented teams.

Re: McGrady replaced by... Well first off, they didn't replace him. They were supposed to be a part of his supporting cast. He got injured, and the team overperformed.

Re: late career McGrady vs more prime Battier & Artest. Just for perspective:

McGrady was born in 1979.
Battier was born in 1978.
Artest was born in 1979.

I won't disagree that McGrady aged more poorly than the other two though.

Re: Before kicking McGrady I'd want something more like evidence. Fair enough.

[Owly]

You're quite right that an explanation of the supporting cast just being more talented is a plausible one in general.

Of course, Battier was there prior to that season, and the team had performed better in earlier regular seasons prior to Artest's arrival.

The truth is complex, and I would say that it has a lot to do with fit and strategy, but I do think when we look back we also need to understand that TMac spent most of his career, and all of his Houston career, as a negative TS Add guy. When an inefficient volume scorer goes away and a team proves surprisingly resilient, it isn't necessarily that big of a surprise.

When late career McGrady is replaced by more prime Battier and Artest. When the scorer and David Wesley and old Jon Barry (or Luther Head) go away ...

No McGrady wasn't an efficient shooter. But he was low turnover. And he did have a not insignificant creation burden for others. I'm not a huge booster for Houston McGrady. At the same time I'd say the Scola, Hayes, Landry, Brooks, Lowry cast had multiple bench players better than some earlier teams starters. So before kicking McGrady I'd want something more like evidence that he was a problem for these playoffs rather than someone often putting up valiant efforts on under-talented teams.

Re: McGrady replaced by... Well first off, they didn't replace him. They were supposed to be a part of his supporting cast. He got injured, and the team overperformed.

Re: late career McGrady vs more prime Battier & Artest. Just for perspective:

McGrady was born in 1979.
Battier was born in 1978.
Artest was born in 1979.

I won't disagree that McGrady aged more poorly than the other two though.

Re: Before kicking McGrady I'd want something more like evidence. Fair enough.

Replace regarded wing minutes.

Sure. But reality is McGrady hitting 30 PER, 10 BPM etc at 23, by 2009 (perhaps 2008 RS too?) he's broken down and circa neutral by the Reference composites (BPM a touch more bullish at 2.3 - impact-side PI googlesites has him positive at 0.9 perhaps partially thinking he's probably still who he was, on-off is -2.3 but with tough competition on the wings). Being without that McGrady wasn't a huge cost because he's a shell of what he was. The team happen to get through one round in significant part because they have many more competent players than before.

[One_and_Done]

If they're out injured, eg the Rockets/Lakers series, that ish don't count.

According to how good Stockton fans retroactively rate him, it must have happened to him and Malone like 7 times lol.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Someone might argue 2014 WCF

[1993Playoffs]

Stockton/Malone more than a few

[f4p]

T-Mac/Yao seems a likely candidate on a few occasions.

Rough truth here:

There are a number of series where you can make a solid argument that TMac & Yao were the two best basketball talents, and in all cases, they lost.

well, while it seems like they were together a long time, they only played in 2 series. they were injured in the regular season in 2006, yao missed the playoffs in 2008 and tmac missed in 2009. and tmac pretty much wiped the floor with prime dirk nowitzki in 2005 so not sure what more realistically he could have done.

Meanwhile, in 2009 the Rockets broke through in a series where the leading scorers were:

Brandon Roy (not Houston)
LaMarcus Aldridge (not Houston)
Luis Scola (Houston)

What does it say when a team always seems to underachieve with their two superstar talents and then actually gets further when led by neither?

if you mean, were post 2005 tmac and yao true superstars who could lead you to a title? no. yao had way too many limitations in a zone defense world that prevented him from posting up and tmac wasn't what he was post-2005 (and he loved contested 20 foot jumpers). if you mean why did they win later and not before, well for the same reason duncan/ginobili/parker were getting worked over in the late 2000's and then broke through again later. because the two teams added a ton of talent around the stars. and yao was very much the rockets best player in the 2009 playoffs, not luis scola.

the 2007 rockets had a playoff game where only 2 guys outside of yao and tmac scored, making them the only team ever to have a playoff game where only 4 players scored. and those players scored 17 combined points. then in short order, the rockets added:

aaron brooks - with a late 1st round pick
kyle lowry - for rafer alston (played one more year)
shane battier - for a 7th pick (was there in 2007 but not 2005)
ron artest - for a late 1st round pick
luis scola - for spanoulis (never played again in the nba)
carl landry - for the last pick of the 1st round or 1st pick of the 2nd round, i forget
chuck hayes - undrafted free agent (was there in 2007 but not 2005)
dikembe mutombo - minimum contract

in other words, with basically no assets, the rockets added a group of scoring guards and forwards and defensive wings and bigs that could have probably won 40+ games by itself. unfortunately, that group never played a playoff game with tmac, deke got hurt in the 1st round, and they played all of 9 games with yao. like most post-1995 rockets stories, it ends with "...and then he/they got injured".

Re: McGrady replaced by... Well first off, they didn't replace him. They were supposed to be a part of his supporting cast. He got injured, and the team overperformed.

well we didn't really overperform. we just performed. that group above plus yao felt like they should have beaten portland.

[Wigginstime]

1994: Payton/Kemp lose to 8 seed Denver Nuggets
1995: Payton/Kemp lose to Lakers

[rk2023]

2004 Kobe/O'Neal vs Detroit
1996 Stockton/malone vs Seatle
1995 Kemp/Payton vs Lakers
1993 Stockton/Malone vs Seatle
1992 Stockton/Malone vs Portland
1991 Stockton/Malone vs Portland
1990 Stockton/Malone vs Phoenix
1990 Magic/Worthy vs Phoenix
2021 Lebron/Davis vs Phoenix
2014 Durant/Westbrook vs San Antonio
2005 Wade/O'Neal vs Detroit
1970 Wilt/West vs NY
1971 Frazier/Reed vs Washington

I would take Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, and Terry Porter over Stockton peak for peak but that's just me.

[tsherkin]

T-Mac/Yao seems a likely candidate on a few occasions. Is there a stipulation they have to have been healthy at the time?

Vince/Tmac Raptors lost to Sprewell/Houston Knicks though tbf they were incredibly young.

McGrady wasn't a top-2 player in that series, nor that season, though. He would eventually become such, but Allan Houston was a better player than McGrady at that stage, AND T Mac sucked ass in that series. Antonio Davis was better than McGrady in that series, and you could at least make arguments for Larry Johnson and Marcus Camby (again, in the series, not so much on the season).