Busts picked top-5 in the draft

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Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#1 » by SomeBunghole » Sat Sep 16, 2023 8:41 pm

I was thinking about the draft and wanted to crunch some numbers to see how successful teams have been when it came to picking in the first 5 spots of the draft.

Why 5? Well, it's a nice round number, but it's also the lowest the team with the worst record in the league can end up with right now. It's been that way for a few years and it looks like it will be that way for a while. Top 5 is also where I think we can reasonably say you're expected to find really good players. Yes, some drafts are stronger or weaker than others, but generally, you should be drafting a stud in top 5. Hell, even if the draft is super short on talent, a smart organization will trade the pick then. Either way, you shouldn't end up with a guy you're releasing at the end of their rookie contract or trading for peanuts or generally regretting drafting a few years later.

Well, what would be a somewhat objective way of separating the studs from the duds? Well, I decided to look at Box Plus/Minus for their whole careers. I very much understand the limits and issues of the methodology. BPM is a stat that skews towards big men, it punishes younger player, especially ones on bad teams, and it punishes good players who hang around for too long at the end of their careers. I get all that, but those are issues for another thread. I've picked BPM and I'm curious to see what it tells us.

Partly because it punishes younger players, I decided that my cutoff would be the 2015 draft. Players drafted after that are still young enough to have the opportunity to both break out and fall off a cliff, potentially changing their career numbers. The start date of 1980 is pretty arbitrary. Most players drafted before 1980 I can't remember seeing play so I'm less interested, I guess.

I've chosen 0 as my cutoff. Having a positive BPM for your career makes you a stud, having a negative one makes you a dud. 0.0 is treated as positive. Obviously, this ignores different levels of busts. Some busts are -0.1 and some are -4.0 or worse. Same goes for the studs, but that isn't the point here. 0.0 is a career mark of a decent starter, so the bar is actually fairly low.

The nature of the stat itself and the sharp cutoff means there are some situations that would likely provoke heavy debate. Keith Van Horn is a stud while Rik Smits is a bust according to BPM. In both cases not my much, but still. Again, these are debates for a different thread. Len Bias is obviously a controversial one, but I've put him under busts because he didn't play a game in the league and every Celtic employee and fan wishes they'd drafted someone else(or traded the pick).

Players are also considered selections of a team they played their first NBA game for. You're the bust of the team that found you most valuable before you ever played in the league. That includes not only draft night trades, but also situations like Danny Ferry refusing to report to the Clippers and spending a whole year in Europe. No one held a gun to the Cavs' head to force them into that trade and send Ron Harper to the Clippers. Same goes for Wiggins and the Wolves. They didn't initially pick Wiggins, but they sure thought he was worth Love. Their bust, not Cavs'.

And I get that this is all relative. Some may question why Tristan Thompson is a bust, when he was the starting center on a team that went to 4 NBA finals. Well, in vacuum, that's a decent career. It looks different when you consider that he was the 4th pick. Decent starter and 6th best player on a championship team is someone you should be looking for in the late first round. Being decent at #4 isn't good enough.

That said, let's take a look at the table. I've highlighted the busts only. I put team names instead of player names, but I figure it's super easy to find who the players in question are by googling.

Image

The first thing that jumps out to me is just how many busts there have been. 42% of all players drafted in top five over a 36-year period were busts. The crazy thing is that it may actually be getting worse, statistically. In the 80s, it was 48%, in the 90s, it was only 24%, but then it starts going up again. It was 46% in the 2000s, and it's 53% in the partial sample of the 2010s. And with all the Bagleys and Fultzes and Josh Jacksons in the later part of the 2010s, it's not looking like the average will improve much.

Now, I get that some of this has to do with draft prospects being ever more raw nowadays, but you would think that improvements in scouting and player development would offset some of that.

The numbers do show that having a #1 pick is a bit more of a guarantee of finding a stud and we have fewest duds at that spot. Still, 10 out of 36 first picks in this sample were busts. That's 28% or almost 1 in 3 chance. It doesn't seem to differ by decade, either.

It's expected that #5 picks would be most likely to be busts, but I didn't expect that they'd share that dubious honour with #2 picks. That's kinda crazy, actually. 56% of all #2 picks are busts so you're actually more likely to get a bust then a stud there. It's even more shocking when you consider that only a third of #3 picks were busts. That seems like it's statistically significant and I wonder if there's a reason. Do teams tend to reach more with #2 picks? Is there more pressure there than at number 3?

There has only been one draft where all 5 top picks were studs, so let's name those guys. In 1996, top five picks were Iverson, Camby, Shareef, Marbury, and Ray Allen. Of course, the two best players in this draft weren't even picked in top 5 and some of these top 5 guys had spotty careers, but you can see why people talk about this draft is being perhaps the best ever. You don't get a guy with a negative career BPM until Lorenzen Wright at #7.

There has not been a draft with all 5 top picks being duds, but there have been four of them where four out of five have been duds. There has only been one draft like that in the past 35 years, and that was 2006. We should really be talking about this draft as one of the worst ever. LaMarcus Aldridge is the only player in top 5 to have had anything resembling a career. Bargnani, Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas and Shelden Williams are more memes than NBA player at this point.

'85 and '86 were two unusually bad drafts back-to-back, at least if you were picking top 5. 8 of the 10 players were busts. Even the one guy in 1986 was Brad Daugherty, who was a good player but injuries ended his career at 28. Most people know how bad that draft was, but 1985 was quite bad at the top, too. Obviously, the Knicks got Ewing in the first ever lottery, and he's a legend. Then you've got Wayman Tisdale(way better singer than baller), Benoit Benjamin, Xavier McDaniel and Jon Koncak. Sure, McDaniel was an All-Star in his one good season in Seattle, but most of his career was middling. And he was a bad defender all his career, and let's remember he got picked 4th. The 6th pick in that 1985 draft was Joe Kleine, who was also really bad. The draft is made better by having Mullin, Oakley, Schrempf and Karl Malone being picked within the next 7 spots, but even that includes guys like Keith Lee and Kenny Green between them.

Finally, it's interesting to look at teams themselves. There are teams that obviously didn't have too many top 5 draft picks over the years, so there was less of a chance to select busts to begin with. Looking at you Spurs and the Lakers. There are also teams like my Jazz who have gotten absolute studs at lower picks but massively screwed up when drafting high. Kanter and Exum 3 years apart. Oh, how 2021 might have looked different if the Jazz didn't waste both those picks.

There are some crazy streaks, too. The Wolves and their three busts over 5 years from 2010-2014. The Cavs with 3 busts in 4 years over the same period but still winning a chip because LeBron decided to return. That's actually crazy. Can you imagine if they didn't take Thompson, Waiters and Bennett? Just one of those picks being better or being traded for even a borderline star might have led to LeBron staying in Cleveland until today.

The Hornets. Oh my, the Hornets. Three straight years in the mid-2000s when they had #2, #5 and #3 pick and messed up all of them. Then again in 2012 and 2013. Bulls with 5 top-5 picks between 2000 and 2006 they screwed up.

How about the Warriors being the only team to end up with two busts at #1 between 1980 and 2015? Maybe I don't begrudge them their recent success so much now that I look at that.

Same with the current champs. Look at the all duds in the 90s for the Nuggets. How about the Pacers in the late 80s? Those Reggie-led teams during the years MJ played baseball might have looked different if their haul with two #2 and a 4# pick wasn't Tisdale, Chuck Person and Smits? I've stayed away from suggesting who could've been taken by any pick in this discussion, but I'll do it now. Imagine Reggie, Malone, Mark Price and Mitch Richmond. Hell, imagine just Reggie and Karl instead of Reggie and Smits.

TL/DR: It's off season. If you don't like, there are plenty of threads about NBA players in trouble with the law, drinking in Serbia, or discussing what "World Champions" means you can read.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#2 » by cupcakesnake » Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:12 pm

2014 (Andrew Wiggins) wasn't a Wolves pick or a draft night trade. The Cavs drafted him, then Lebron James signed in free agency, and then forced the Kevin Love trade.

Maybe we would still have drafted Wiggins (he was considered the safe bet in light of Embiid's injury) but I have no idea.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#3 » by cupcakesnake » Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:14 pm

I think it's a good reminder for a lot of fans (ones who get demanding about their franchises tanking), that it's not that uncommon for a draft to have 3-4 meh picks in the top 5. It's pretty common, at least by how you're measuring it.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#4 » by SomeBunghole » Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:37 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:2014 (Andrew Wiggins) wasn't a Wolves pick or a draft night trade. The Cavs drafted him, then Lebron James signed in free agency, and then forced the Kevin Love trade.



Players are also considered selections of a team they played their first NBA game for.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#5 » by W_HAMILTON » Sat Sep 16, 2023 9:58 pm

SomeBunghole wrote:
Spoiler:
I was thinking about the draft and wanted to crunch some numbers to see how successful teams have been when it came to picking in the first 5 spots of the draft.

Why 5? Well, it's a nice round number, but it's also the lowest the team with the worst record in the league can end up with right now. It's been that way for a few years and it looks like it will be that way for a while. Top 5 is also where I think we can reasonably say you're expected to find really good players. Yes, some drafts are stronger or weaker than others, but generally, you should be drafting a stud in top 5. Hell, even if the draft is super short on talent, a smart organization will trade the pick then. Either way, you shouldn't end up with a guy you're releasing at the end of their rookie contract or trading for peanuts or generally regretting drafting a few years later.

Well, what would be a somewhat objective way of separating the studs from the duds? Well, I decided to look at Box Plus/Minus for their whole careers. I very much understand the limits and issues of the methodology. BPM is a stat that skews towards big men, it punishes younger player, especially ones on bad teams, and it punishes good players who hang around for too long at the end of their careers. I get all that, but those are issues for another thread. I've picked BPM and I'm curious to see what it tells us.

Partly because it punishes younger players, I decided that my cutoff would be the 2015 draft. Players drafted after that are still young enough to have the opportunity to both break out and fall off a cliff, potentially changing their career numbers. The start date of 1980 is pretty arbitrary. Most players drafted before 1980 I can't remember seeing play so I'm less interested, I guess.

I've chosen 0 as my cutoff. Having a positive BPM for your career makes you a stud, having a negative one makes you a dud. 0.0 is treated as positive. Obviously, this ignores different levels of busts. Some busts are -0.1 and some are -4.0 or worse. Same goes for the studs, but that isn't the point here. 0.0 is a career mark of a decent starter, so the bar is actually fairly low.

The nature of the stat itself and the sharp cutoff means there are some situations that would likely provoke heavy debate. Keith Van Horn is a stud while Rik Smits is a bust according to BPM. In both cases not my much, but still. Again, these are debates for a different thread. Len Bias is obviously a controversial one, but I've put him under busts because he didn't play a game in the league and every Celtic employee and fan wishes they'd drafted someone else(or traded the pick).

Players are also considered selections of a team they played their first NBA game for. You're the bust of the team that found you most valuable before you ever played in the league. That includes not only draft night trades, but also situations like Danny Ferry refusing to report to the Clippers and spending a whole year in Europe. No one held a gun to the Cavs' head to force them into that trade and send Ron Harper to the Clippers. Same goes for Wiggins and the Wolves. They didn't initially pick Wiggins, but they sure thought he was worth Love. Their bust, not Cavs'.

And I get that this is all relative. Some may question why Tristan Thompson is a bust, when he was the starting center on a team that went to 4 NBA finals. Well, in vacuum, that's a decent career. It looks different when you consider that he was the 4th pick. Decent starter and 6th best player on a championship team is someone you should be looking for in the late first round. Being decent at #4 isn't good enough.

That said, let's take a look at the table. I've highlighted the busts only. I put team names instead of player names, but I figure it's super easy to find who the players in question are by googling.

Image

The first thing that jumps out to me is just how many busts there have been. 42% of all players drafted in top five over a 36-year period were busts. The crazy thing is that it may actually be getting worse, statistically. In the 80s, it was 48%, in the 90s, it was only 24%, but then it starts going up again. It was 46% in the 2000s, and it's 53% in the partial sample of the 2010s. And with all the Bagleys and Fultzes and Josh Jacksons in the later part of the 2010s, it's not looking like the average will improve much.

Now, I get that some of this has to do with draft prospects being ever more raw nowadays, but you would think that improvements in scouting and player development would offset some of that.

The numbers do show that having a #1 pick is a bit more of a guarantee of finding a stud and we have fewest duds at that spot. Still, 10 out of 36 first picks in this sample were busts. That's 28% or almost 1 in 3 chance. It doesn't seem to differ by decade, either.

It's expected that #5 picks would be most likely to be busts, but I didn't expect that they'd share that dubious honour with #2 picks. That's kinda crazy, actually. 56% of all #2 picks are busts so you're actually more likely to get a bust then a stud there. It's even more shocking when you consider that only a third of #3 picks were busts. That seems like it's statistically significant and I wonder if there's a reason. Do teams tend to reach more with #2 picks? Is there more pressure there than at number 3?

There has only been one draft where all 5 top picks were studs, so let's name those guys. In 1996, top five picks were Iverson, Camby, Shareef, Marbury, and Ray Allen. Of course, the two best players in this draft weren't even picked in top 5 and some of these top 5 guys had spotty careers, but you can see why people talk about this draft is being perhaps the best ever. You don't get a guy with a negative career BPM until Lorenzen Wright at #7.

There has not been a draft with all 5 top picks being duds, but there have been four of them where four out of five have been duds. There has only been one draft like that in the past 35 years, and that was 2006. We should really be talking about this draft as one of the worst ever. LaMarcus Aldridge is the only player in top 5 to have had anything resembling a career. Bargnani, Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas and Shelden Williams are more memes than NBA player at this point.

'85 and '86 were two unusually bad drafts back-to-back, at least if you were picking top 5. 8 of the 10 players were busts. Even the one guy in 1986 was Brad Daugherty, who was a good player but injuries ended his career at 28. Most people know how bad that draft was, but 1985 was quite bad at the top, too. Obviously, the Knicks got Ewing in the first ever lottery, and he's a legend. Then you've got Wayman Tisdale(way better singer than baller), Benoit Benjamin, Xavier McDaniel and Jon Koncak. Sure, McDaniel was an All-Star in his one good season in Seattle, but most of his career was middling. And he was a bad defender all his career, and let's remember he got picked 4th. The 6th pick in that 1985 draft was Joe Kleine, who was also really bad. The draft is made better by having Mullin, Oakley, Schrempf and Karl Malone being picked within the next 7 spots, but even that includes guys like Keith Lee and Kenny Green between them.

Finally, it's interesting to look at teams themselves. There are teams that obviously didn't have too many top 5 draft picks over the years, so there was less of a chance to select busts to begin with. Looking at you Spurs and the Lakers. There are also teams like my Jazz who have gotten absolute studs at lower picks but massively screwed up when drafting high. Kanter and Exum 3 years apart. Oh, how 2021 might have looked different if the Jazz didn't waste both those picks.

There are some crazy streaks, too. The Wolves and their three busts over 5 years from 2010-2014. The Cavs with 3 busts in 4 years over the same period but still winning a chip because LeBron decided to return. That's actually crazy. Can you imagine if they didn't take Thompson, Waiters and Bennett? Just one of those picks being better or being traded for even a borderline star might have led to LeBron staying in Cleveland until today.

The Hornets. Oh my, the Hornets. Three straight years in the mid-2000s when they had #2, #5 and #3 pick and messed up all of them. Then again in 2012 and 2013. Bulls with 5 top-5 picks between 2000 and 2006 they screwed up.

How about the Warriors being the only team to end up with two busts at #1 between 1980 and 2015? Maybe I don't begrudge them their recent success so much now that I look at that.

Same with the current champs. Look at the all duds in the 90s for the Nuggets. How about the Pacers in the late 80s? Those Reggie-led teams during the years MJ played baseball might have looked different if their haul with two #2 and a 4# pick wasn't Tisdale, Chuck Person and Smits? I've stayed away from suggesting who could've been taken by any pick in this discussion, but I'll do it now. Imagine Reggie, Malone, Mark Price and Mitch Richmond. Hell, imagine just Reggie and Karl instead of Reggie and Smits.

TL/DR: It's off season. If you don't like, there are plenty of threads about NBA players in trouble with the law, drinking in Serbia, or discussing what "World Champions" means you can read.


Wait, are you putting Emeka Okafor as a bust?

He didn't turn out to be as good as everyone hoped and I know he had his injury problems, but he won his class's Rookie of the Year and was a damn good player for a while there.

If you are going to list him as a bust, seems like that whole board would just about be lit up like a Christmas tree with busts.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#6 » by Richard4444 » Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:37 pm

WIggins is not a bust.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#7 » by zero rings » Sat Sep 16, 2023 11:50 pm

Richard4444 wrote:WIggins is not a bust.


The Wolves traded him for D'Angelo Russell and had to pay a first for the privilege.

Bust.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#8 » by ItsDanger » Sun Sep 17, 2023 12:01 am

47% of teams don't even make the playoffs. 73% aren't playing by 2nd round. Sure there are busts but consider the alternative.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#9 » by SomeBunghole » Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:46 am

W_HAMILTON wrote:Wait, are you putting Emeka Okafor as a bust?


It's not about where I put him, it's where BPM puts him.

And yes, even if it was down to simply my opinion, he was a bust. #2 pick who played in 7 playoff games and who never became more than a solid role player.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#10 » by PapaBear53 » Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:00 am

How is Darrell Griffith. the consensus college player of the year who had a solid 10 year NBA career with 37 playoff game appearances, a bust (#2, 1980)?
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#11 » by Roger Murdock » Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:27 am

Tristan Thompson is not a bust

Jalil Okafor is a bust




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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#12 » by xxSnEaKyPxx » Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:32 am

I think your definition of bust and my definition of bust are very different.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#13 » by Infinite Llamas » Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:36 am

SomeBunghole wrote:
cupcakesnake wrote:2014 (Andrew Wiggins) wasn't a Wolves pick or a draft night trade. The Cavs drafted him, then Lebron James signed in free agency, and then forced the Kevin Love trade.



Players are also considered selections of a team they played their first NBA game for.


Billy Owens first game was with Golden State though.

Enes Freedom and Derrick Williams are switched too.

This list is wild and why we shouldn’t overrate analytics and accept them for everything. In what universe are guys like Antonio McDyess, Jeff Green, Jim Jackson, Juwan Howard and Abdul-Rauf considered busts and someone like Antonio Daniels isn’t?? What did someone like Dunleavy, D-Lo and Shawn Bradley do that those other guys I mentioned didn’t do? Wiggins was the second best player on a championship team lol.

We just have different definitions of busts
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#14 » by DemHeavyHands » Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:36 am

If TT is a bust then so is Bogut imo
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#15 » by MrGoat » Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:37 am

cupcakesnake wrote:2014 (Andrew Wiggins) wasn't a Wolves pick or a draft night trade. The Cavs drafted him, then Lebron James signed in free agency, and then forced the Kevin Love trade.

Maybe we would still have drafted Wiggins (he was considered the safe bet in light of Embiid's injury) but I have no idea.


Wiggins was one of the top 5 most hyped prospects since LeBron, he was a consensus #1 pick. That certainly played a factor in the Wolves being willing to trade Love for him. There were much higher hopes for Wiggins at the time, which is why he's still considered a draft bust even though he eventually turned out to be a good high level role player when put in a good situation.
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#16 » by Lalouie » Sun Sep 17, 2023 4:42 am

if a lottery can't make today's nba he must really sukkk
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#17 » by meekrab » Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:18 am

PapaBear53 wrote:How is Darrell Griffith. the consensus college player of the year who had a solid 10 year NBA career with 37 playoff game appearances, a bust (#2, 1980)?

Well college player of the year is irrelevant and he was a shooting guard who couldn't shoot. (.509 career TS% on very high usage)
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#18 » by MrGoat » Sun Sep 17, 2023 6:48 am

PapaBear53 wrote:How is Darrell Griffith. the consensus college player of the year who had a solid 10 year NBA career with 37 playoff game appearances, a bust (#2, 1980)?


Missed a whole year despite only lasting 10. Never averaged even 20 PPG in a playoff run and declined pretty fast after his first five seasons (injury). Not a terrible career but for a #2 pick that would be considered somewhat of a bust
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#19 » by BruttoNostra » Sun Sep 17, 2023 8:44 am

SomeBunghole wrote:TL/DR: It's off season. If you don't like, there are plenty of threads about NBA players in trouble with the law, drinking in Serbia, or discussing what "World Champions" means you can read.

OP, this is a perfect example of a thread that makes me open RealGM forums everyday. Nice job!

Now, people who are questioning some bust names here - did you read the whole post? Are you new to basketball advanced stats? There is not a single all-in-one advanced stat that's perfect. Some will overrate offensive players, some struggle with normalising minutes playing etc - bottom line, RPM probably does the job in 90% of the cases, and it's enough for some bigger picture analysis (not even saying it's the best stat - just that it's good enough) - yes, maybe some of the busts in the OP's list are questionable and maybe it misses some reallife busts with a low positive RPM, but it doesn't change the bigger picture of ~1/3 of 1st picks or ~40% of top-5 picks being busts, and that was the goal of the post, I think.
Other possibility would be getting over all those 36*5=180 players and what - voting for each one of them if he's a bust?
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Re: Busts picked top-5 in the draft 

Post#20 » by Pachinko_ » Sun Sep 17, 2023 9:37 am

If you go and sort players by minutes per game and keep only the ones that are rotation players (ie they average something like 20 mins or so) and look where they have been drafted. You'll find that most lottery picks are not even rotation players within a 10 year span from their draft year.

Drafting is an extremely unreliable way to rebuild, you can tank for years and years and have little to nothing to show for it. But to be fair the alternatives are also very difficult, basically you have to fleece somebody in a trade.

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