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Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition

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Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#581 » by minimus » Sat Sep 16, 2023 4:55 pm

minimus wrote:IND: Towns, McLaughlin, Moore
MIN: Hield, Nembhard, Theis, Toppin, 2024 FRP, three SRPs

Why for IND: Indiana has been epitome of mediocre team. By adding Towns they can finally jump into playoff in East. Hield, Nembhard, Theis, Toppin are not needle movers for them. Turner+Towns+Haliburton+Carlisle might be a good foundation

Turner/Smith + Tshiebwe
Towns/Jackson/Walker
Mathurin/Neismith/Nwora + Brown
Brown/Moore/Sheppard + Wong
Hali/Connell/McLaughlin

Why for MIN: get future starting PG in Nembhard, an interesting PF in Toppin, expiring Hield who is also a movement shooter. Theis contract might be useful, since he has team option in 2024-25. Plus we would send Towns to East conference. Our rotation will be deep.

Gobert/Reid/Theis + Garza
Anderson/Toppin/Miller
McDaniels/Brown/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Hield
Conley/Milton/Nembhard



If Nembhard proves to be a capable starting PG, it could completely shift our development path of this organization. After 2023-24 year our roster will have A LOT of flexibility.

Garza, Topping - RFA
Anderson, Conley - UFA
Milton, Brown, Theis - team option
Hield - UFA
Minott - non-guaranteed

+ two FRPs

Gobert/Reid
Miller
McDaniels/Minott
Edwards/NAW
Nembhard




Excellent video about Nembhard. I really think he can be a special player. Imagine MCD-Edwards-Nembhard-NAW giving opponent perimeter stars 48 minutes of nightmare every game.

P.S. Coach Daniel has been a YouTube legend because he started as NBA content creator on YouTube and got position in DAL organization. I don't know whether he's still working in DAL, but this guy is good.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#582 » by KGdaBom » Sat Sep 16, 2023 10:07 pm

minimus wrote:
minimus wrote:IND: Towns, McLaughlin, Moore
MIN: Hield, Nembhard, Theis, Toppin, 2024 FRP, three SRPs

Why for IND: Indiana has been epitome of mediocre team. By adding Towns they can finally jump into playoff in East. Hield, Nembhard, Theis, Toppin are not needle movers for them. Turner+Towns+Haliburton+Carlisle might be a good foundation

Turner/Smith + Tshiebwe
Towns/Jackson/Walker
Mathurin/Neismith/Nwora + Brown
Brown/Moore/Sheppard + Wong
Hali/Connell/McLaughlin

Why for MIN: get future starting PG in Nembhard, an interesting PF in Toppin, expiring Hield who is also a movement shooter. Theis contract might be useful, since he has team option in 2024-25. Plus we would send Towns to East conference. Our rotation will be deep.

Gobert/Reid/Theis + Garza
Anderson/Toppin/Miller
McDaniels/Brown/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Hield
Conley/Milton/Nembhard



If Nembhard proves to be a capable starting PG, it could completely shift our development path of this organization. After 2023-24 year our roster will have A LOT of flexibility.

Garza, Topping - RFA
Anderson, Conley - UFA
Milton, Brown, Theis - team option
Hield - UFA
Minott - non-guaranteed

+ two FRPs

Gobert/Reid
Miller
McDaniels/Minott
Edwards/NAW
Nembhard




Excellent video about Nembhard. I really think he can be a special player. Imagine MCD-Edwards-Nembhard-NAW giving opponent perimeter stars 48 minutes of nightmare every game.

P.S. Coach Daniel has been a YouTube legend because he started as NBA content creator on YouTube and got position in DAL organization. I don't know whether he's still working in DAL, but this guy is good.

Nembhard is so good they should trade us Haliburton and keep Nembhard.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#583 » by minimus » Sun Sep 17, 2023 7:48 am

If we really want to keep Towns, here is another trade which I HATE to even think about, but... On Dec.25... It would break my heart...

TO MIN: Theis, Nembhard
TO IND: Naz Reid (cry), McLaughlin

Gobert/Towns/Theis + Garza
Towns/Anderson/Miller
McDaniels/Brown/Minott
Edwards/NAW/Moore
Conley/Milton/Nembhard

Here are some interesting videos about Nembhard.

Defense:


Offense:


Highlights:


To sum up: he is everything you want from young starting PG as defender. He is a tall for PG position, versatile, smart, hard nosed, high effort defender both on the ball and off the ball (although lacks elite quickness to be elite PoA defender). He is not ISO scorer by any means, but he is high level passer how can manipulate offense in PnR, and promising catch and shoot three point shooter.

The idea is to put him and NAW next to Edwards and McDaniels to lock perimeter defender and on top of it continue to build a new team identity. MCD-Edwards-Nembhard-NAW as defensive unit have plethora of size, talent, skills and hustle.

We will have two axis offense Towns-Edwards with a big hope that:
- McDaniels and Nembhard provide enough shooting, spacing and passing as third options
- Miller and Minott will continue to develop and can earn minutes as athletic comboforwards
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#584 » by shrink » Sun Sep 17, 2023 1:24 pm

minimus wrote:If we really want to keep Towns, here is another trade which I HATE to even think about, but... On Dec.25... It would break my heart...

TO MIN: Theis, Nembhard
TO IND: Naz Reid (cry), McLaughlin

This could make a lot of sense. Even the required Christmas deadline.

MIN will want some time to see how Towns and Gobert work together without all the complicating factors of last season. If it’s working well, Naz is just a luxury for a team with more need for a PGotF, and Reid’s young career would grow better elsewhere.

The Pacers will also want some time to see if Jarace Walker and Jalen Smith are working, and to see if their cheap gamble on Obi Toppin improving is paying off. If not, Naz could be a good fit, not just for his play, but for his age. He’s only six months older than Walker, and over a year younger than Toppin, so he could be a better choice as a young big, locked in on a nice contract.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#585 » by Domejandro » Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:07 pm

minimus wrote:TO MIN: Theis, Nembhard
TO IND: Naz Reid (cry), McLaughlin


minimus wrote:
minimus wrote:IND: Towns, McLaughlin, Moore
MIN: Hield, Nembhard, Theis, Toppin, 2024 FRP, three SRPs


From my perspective, this is where the breakdown is.

Do you believe that Karl-Anthony Towns is only Obi Toppin (who was traded for two seconds), one first, and three seconds more valuable than Naz Reid? Also, if Andrew Nembhard is really this future star, why would Indiana trade him for Naz Reid?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#586 » by minimus » Sun Sep 17, 2023 3:51 pm

Domejandro wrote:
minimus wrote:TO MIN: Theis, Nembhard
TO IND: Naz Reid (cry), McLaughlin


minimus wrote:
minimus wrote:IND: Towns, McLaughlin, Moore
MIN: Hield, Nembhard, Theis, Toppin, 2024 FRP, three SRPs


From my perspective, this is where the breakdown is.

Do you believe that Karl-Anthony Towns is only Obi Toppin (who was traded for two seconds), one first, and three seconds more valuable than Naz Reid? Also, if Andrew Nembhard is really this future star, why would Indiana trade him for Naz Reid?


1) if Nembhard is the answer to our starting PG need, I would be perfectly fine if we trade Towns for Nembhard and mediocre assets, such as Toppin, 2024 FRP and three SRPs. Think about it as another variation of Sabonis-Haliburton trade

2) Nembhard does not need to be an established star, I believe that there are more ways to be successful than just acquire stars at every position. Guys like FVV, Lowry, Caruso all have championship rings. IND already have a star PG in Haliburton, so they might not have a big need in Nembhard. Fit IMO is more important than theoretical value of a superstar. I wonder how Dame and Harden situation will resolve. Maybe we will have more food to think about potential Towns trade. But age, contract, injuries and fit are factors as well. If Nembhard in MIN is a perfect fit, I will trade Towns. It is funny, but we traded for Gobert because it was advertised as twin towers combo that will lead us the promise land. Talent over fit. Now I want to have an ideal fit, rather than pure talent or size.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#587 » by TimberKat » Sun Sep 17, 2023 10:15 pm

minimus wrote:
Domejandro wrote:
minimus wrote:TO MIN: Theis, Nembhard
TO IND: Naz Reid (cry), McLaughlin


minimus wrote:


From my perspective, this is where the breakdown is.

Do you believe that Karl-Anthony Towns is only Obi Toppin (who was traded for two seconds), one first, and three seconds more valuable than Naz Reid? Also, if Andrew Nembhard is really this future star, why would Indiana trade him for Naz Reid?


1) if Nembhard is the answer to our starting PG need, I would be perfectly fine if we trade Towns for Nembhard and mediocre assets, such as Toppin, 2024 FRP and three SRPs. Think about it as another variation of Sabonis-Haliburton trade

2) Nembhard does not need to be an established star, I believe that there are more ways to be successful than just acquire stars at every position. Guys like FVV, Lowry, Caruso all have championship rings. IND already have a star PG in Haliburton, so they might not have a big need in Nembhard. Fit IMO is more important than theoretical value of a superstar. I wonder how Dame and Harden situation will resolve. Maybe we will have more food to think about potential Towns trade. But age, contract, injuries and fit are factors as well. If Nembhard in MIN is a perfect fit, I will trade Towns. It is funny, but we traded for Gobert because it was advertised as twin towers combo that will lead us the promise land. Talent over fit. Now I want to have an ideal fit, rather than pure talent or size.

Nembhard does not need to be an established star... seems to imply he doesn't need to "turn into" a star. So, why are we trading away a star player for a rotational player. Even if we think Nembhard is a better fit, we should get a lot more in return. Naz for Nembhard makes more sense. However, I am expecting Naz to take another step and be a key contributor off the bench this year.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#588 » by TimberKat » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:44 am

What about Klay + Kuminga + 1 future # for Towns + KA? Assuming Klay will sign 2 year extension at 30mil.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#589 » by jscott » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:47 am

TimberKat wrote:What about Klay + Kuminga + 1 future # for Towns + KA? Assuming Klay will sign 2 year extension at 30mil.

God no.

Where do you play Klay? He’s older than KAT.

Kuminga is okay but nothing to write home about and the 1st isn’t all that valuable.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#590 » by minimus » Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:14 pm

TimberKat wrote:Nembhard does not need to be an established star... seems to imply he doesn't need to "turn into" a star.


I guess it is my bad english, let say Nembhard does not need to be an established star at the moment of trade. But for sure MIN should do everything to develop him into NBA star. But it would be totally fine if Nembhard follow Kyle Lowry, Mike Conley, FVV path consistently improving from role player into NBA star. He reminds me a bit Rubio with a little less passing creativity and more shooting. If we get Nembhard AND resign Conley for one more year, it will be a perfect situation when Nembhard can learn from Conley and make a smooth transition into starting role.

TimberKat wrote:So, why are we trading away a star player for a rotational player. Even if we think Nembhard is a better fit, we should get a lot more in return.


On paper Towns should command at least a Gobert like package: 4-5 FRPs or equivalent in young players + expiring contracts. But like many posters said here «picks are overrated». If Nembhard has potential to be Kyle Lowry level PG, he is worth at least two FRPs. It was reported that Mikal Bridges is worth four late FRPs, OG Anunoby - three. Because they have bargain contracts. So a bargain contract worth at least one additional late FRP, because in theory you can use this salary space in other ways. And a overpriced contract is at least minus one FRP. It is al pure speculation, I think that:

+ Towns is a star who worth 4-5 FRPs, because of elite shooting and slashing ability, improving passing, good teammate
- minus one FRP because of his mediocre playoff performance, general maturity concerns (turnover, fouls, moving screens) and lack of defense
- minus one FRP because of supermax contract

That was my idea behind of getting Nembhard, Toppin, one FRP in next 2024 draft (not in 2025-29 years), expiring contracts (Theis, Hield).

If Nembhard is as good as advertised he complete our rebuild around Edwards and we get MCD-Edwards-Nembhard young core and can build on it. I think about it as complete cycle of development process build-test-production. Right now this cycle is not complete and lasts since Rubio was traded back in 2017. Since then we got 2.5 yrs of Teague who cant execute a simple post pass, three years of DLo and now when finally we found or ideal PG in Conley he will soon be 36 (!!!) yo veteran. It is naïve to think that:

a) he gets any better
b) it will be easy to find a replacement via draft/waive/g-league/overseas market

It means that after six seasons of rebuild we don't have a starting PG. Everything else is manageable: Gobert and Reid as C, Miller, Minott as comboforwards, Brown as shooter, NAW, Milton as comboguards.

TimberKat wrote:Naz for Nembhard makes more sense. However, I am expecting Naz to take another step and be a key contributor off the bench this year.


Unfortunately I cant see how Gobert, Towns and Reid co-exist in our roster from next season. Last year Reid and Anderson were on fire when Towns was out. This year Reid and Anderson need minutes. And I wonder if Reid + Anderson for 22 mil are much worse than Towns for 36 mil this season and Towns for 49-61 mil starting from next season.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#591 » by cmoss84 » Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:00 pm

How about a trade with Boston?

Out: Rudy and WMJ
In: Brogdon and White
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#592 » by Klomp » Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:50 pm

I don't really want to be right, but there's a tiny part of me that wonders if we have not extended Jaden McDaniels in order to retain maximum flexibility because of the situations around Lillard, Harden, etc.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#593 » by shrink » Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:43 pm

Klomp wrote:I don't really want to be right, but there's a tiny part of me that wonders if we have not extended Jaden McDaniels in order to retain maximum flexibility because of the situations around Lillard, Harden, etc.

You’re talking poison pill here?

For salary-matching purposes, if a player is traded between the time his rookie contract is extended and the following July 1 (when that extension takes effect), the player’s incoming value for the receiving team is the average of his current-year salary and the annual salary in each year of his extension.

His current team, on the other hand, simply treats his current-year salary as the outgoing figure for matching purposes.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#594 » by shrink » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:06 am

Browsing the internet today, and saw a couple fake trades for Naz Reid from some bigger sources.

Naz to Spurs for Devonte’ Graham and a 2025 SAS 1st

Naz to Lakers for Gabe Vincent and Cam Reddish
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#595 » by Klomp » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:39 am

shrink wrote:
Klomp wrote:I don't really want to be right, but there's a tiny part of me that wonders if we have not extended Jaden McDaniels in order to retain maximum flexibility because of the situations around Lillard, Harden, etc.

You’re talking poison pill here?

For salary-matching purposes, if a player is traded between the time his rookie contract is extended and the following July 1 (when that extension takes effect), the player’s incoming value for the receiving team is the average of his current-year salary and the annual salary in each year of his extension.

His current team, on the other hand, simply treats his current-year salary as the outgoing figure for matching purposes.

Well that, but also a trade restriction comes once ink is put to paper...

We have limited "trade chips." However much we want to keep him as fans, crazy things happen and you need valuable trade assets in order to seize it when those moments come.

In terms of trade value per salary dollar, McDaniels has to be one of the best ones out there at the moment. In regards to Portland specifically, that value inside a PNW native would probably be tempting.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#596 » by Klomp » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:40 am

shrink wrote:Browsing the internet today, and saw a couple fake trades for Naz Reid from some bigger sources.

Naz to Spurs for Devonte’ Graham and a 2025 SAS 1st

Naz to Lakers for Gabe Vincent and Cam Reddish

I get that Minnesota needs a "PG of the future" but are either Graham or Vincent even better options than Shake Milton?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#597 » by Neeva » Tue Sep 19, 2023 12:54 am

Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:Browsing the internet today, and saw a couple fake trades for Naz Reid from some bigger sources.

Naz to Spurs for Devonte’ Graham and a 2025 SAS 1st

Naz to Lakers for Gabe Vincent and Cam Reddish

I get that Minnesota needs a "PG of the future" but are either Graham or Vincent even better options than Shake Milton?


Definitely not , but that SAS first could be a gold mine though, if it’s lightly protected.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#598 » by andyhop » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:37 am

TimberKat wrote:What about Klay + Kuminga + 1 future # for Towns + KA? Assuming Klay will sign 2 year extension at 30mil.


Why are the Wolves sending out the 2 best players in a deal when they are trying to win now?
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#599 » by TimberKat » Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:50 am

andyhop wrote:
TimberKat wrote:What about Klay + Kuminga + 1 future # for Towns + KA? Assuming Klay will sign 2 year extension at 30mil.


Why are the Wolves sending out the 2 best players in a deal when they are trying to win now?

Because I got tired of waiting for the season to start and tired of bad trade ideas. The rationale is Klay gives you the good DLo of last year, Kuminga is a younger upgrade at pfd. You also get a trade chip. With Conley at PG, this is a big upgrade of last year's team when Towns was out. Also, near the value of Towns for Lillard.
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Re: Trade Talk (Part Thirteen): 2023 Offseason Edition 

Post#600 » by KGdaBom » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:55 am

Neeva wrote:
Klomp wrote:
shrink wrote:Browsing the internet today, and saw a couple fake trades for Naz Reid from some bigger sources.

Naz to Spurs for Devonte’ Graham and a 2025 SAS 1st

Naz to Lakers for Gabe Vincent and Cam Reddish

I get that Minnesota needs a "PG of the future" but are either Graham or Vincent even better options than Shake Milton?


Definitely not , but that SAS first could be a gold mine though, if it’s lightly protected.

No protection whatsoever.

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