Jordan Love Thread - All Aboard the Love Train

[ReasonablySober]

You guys are using one of the best examples of sitting ever to say that he probably should have played earlier?

[humanrefutation]

100%

We never see the case of "Wow, that guy should have been on the field sooner!" but we have a monster list of what-ifs when it comes to rookie QBs being asked to carry teams that were the absolute worst the year before.

Mahomes probably didn't need to sit behind Alex Smith for a year and Rodgers should have probably taken over for Favre in 2007.

But those are hindsight calls that we can only make because they are two of the only QBs in recent memory who actually did sit for at least a season.

I agree on Mahomes but Favre was awesome in 2007, was the only player besides Brady to get an MVP vote

Favre was very good in 2007, but Rodgers showed how good he was against the Cowboys that year and I'm convinced that if he played in the NFCCG, we go to the Super Bowl.

[humanrefutation]

You guys are using one of the best examples of sitting ever to say that he probably should have played earlier?

Rodgers had already sat for two years at that point. And I don't think Mahomes sitting for a year had a major impact on his development - that dude was bound to be a monster either way by virtue of having a great coach and lots of weapons.

[MVP2110]

Mahomes probably didn't need to sit behind Alex Smith for a year and Rodgers should have probably taken over for Favre in 2007.

But those are hindsight calls that we can only make because they are two of the only QBs in recent memory who actually did sit for at least a season.

I agree on Mahomes but Favre was awesome in 2007, was the only player besides Brady to get an MVP vote

Favre was very good in 2007, but Rodgers showed how good he was against the Cowboys that year and I'm convinced that if he played in the NFCCG, we go to the Super Bowl.

That may be true but I doubt we get to the NFCCG without Favre that season

[M-C-G]

You guys are using one of the best examples of sitting ever to say that he probably should have played earlier?

Rodgers had already sat for two years at that point. And I don't think Mahomes sitting for a year had a major impact on his development - that dude was bound to be a monster either way by virtue of having a great coach and lots of weapons.

So could be true but if bound to be a monster why didn’t he go 1.01?


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[ReasonablySober]

That's such a good point. Mahomes went earlier in the draft than anyone thought.

[humanrefutation]

You guys are using one of the best examples of sitting ever to say that he probably should have played earlier?

Rodgers had already sat for two years at that point. And I don't think Mahomes sitting for a year had a major impact on his development - that dude was bound to be a monster either way by virtue of having a great coach and lots of weapons.

So could be true but if bound to be a monster why didn’t he go 1.01?


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Just because several teams **** up by passing him up doesn't mean that the one year behind Alex Smith turned him into the best player in the NFL. Teams make mistakes all the time.

[MoMM]

It's not only about passing skills, but how to prepare for the games, how to lead a bunch of grown man instead of college kids, different tempo, etc.

I think that not starting from Year 1 really helps a lot. They have more time to learn instead of being throw into fire and having high expectations because they were a 1st round pick.

We can even see it with our own past 1st round picks, most of them were not starters and they play on way easier positions than QB (Gary, LVN this year, etc).

[MoMM]

100%

We never see the case of "Wow, that guy should have been on the field sooner!" but we have a monster list of what-ifs when it comes to rookie QBs being asked to carry teams that were the absolute worst the year before.

Mahomes probably didn't need to sit behind Alex Smith for a year and Rodgers should have probably taken over for Favre in 2007.

But those are hindsight calls that we can only make because they are two of the only QBs in recent memory who actually did sit for at least a season.

I agree on Mahomes but Favre was awesome in 2007, was the only player besides Brady to get an MVP vote

I think the point here is not that Rodgers was better than Favre or not (we are talking about a HoF), but that he was ready to start.

[Ron Swanson]

I'm not talking about guys who were overrated college prospects like Josh Rosen and Jamarcus Russell where it was clear as day that they were trash the second they stepped foot on an NFL field. I was talking about guys (Carr, Couch, RGIII) who were borderline generational QB prospects and showed big flashes early in their pro careers, but got absolutely ruined by idiot coaching staffs and terribly constructed rosters around them.

You can absolutely wreck a young QB's career by throwing him to the wolves too early. It's not just some dumb football cliche people like to throw around. I mean hell, we all saw how bad Rodgers looked in limited snaps and preseason during his rookie year (dude literally had to rework his entire mechanics). You mean to tell me he would have become the same exact player had he been forced to start Day-1 and spent the first 5-6 years of his career with like, Cleveland or those awful Niners teams before Harbaugh got there? I'm skeptical.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I agree on Mahomes but Favre was awesome in 2007, was the only player besides Brady to get an MVP vote

Favre was very good in 2007, but Rodgers showed how good he was against the Cowboys that year and I'm convinced that if he played in the NFCCG, we go to the Super Bowl.

That may be true but I doubt we get to the NFCCG without Favre that season

If that's year two of Rodgers starting I think they beat the Giants in that NFCG.

I don't have any proof but neither does anyone who claims a player would have ended up different had they sat longer or played sooner. That's the fun part about that argument is you can claim whatever you want and because we can't 'redevelop' a player you're never wrong.

Like I was saying yesterday the fact we never really see a high pick suck where he's drafted then go to another team and be a star might mean that this really doesn't matter and some guys will be good regardless and some will suck regardless.

I'll also add a rookie sitting for like 8-10 games his rookie year to learn the playbook is a lot different that a guy sitting 3 full seasons.

Do you think Jalen Hurts would have a better career if this was his first year starting? Same draft class as Love and an equally raw prospect.

Did all the QB needy teams **** up not trading for Trey Lance? If sitting makes you better he should be a really good prospect right now right?

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[MVP2110]

Favre was very good in 2007, but Rodgers showed how good he was against the Cowboys that year and I'm convinced that if he played in the NFCCG, we go to the Super Bowl.

That may be true but I doubt we get to the NFCCG without Favre that season

If that's year two of Rodgers starting I think they beat the Giants in that NFCG.

I don't have any proof but neither does anyone who claims a player would have ended up different had they sat longer or played sooner. That's the fun part about that argument is you can claim whatever you want and because we can't 'redevelop' a player you're never wrong.

Like I was saying yesterday the fact we never really see a high pick suck where he's drafted then go to another team and be a star might mean that this really doesn't matter and some guys will be good regardless and some will suck regardless.



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I guess I'm not talking about that Giants game specifically. I'm saying if Rodgers is the starter that season over Favre we likely don't even make it to the NFCCG. Favre was awesome that year, better than Rodgers was in 08 so I find it unlikely if Rodgers started a year earlier that Rodgers would take us as far as Favre did. Now I'm open to the idea that for that one specific game Rodgers would have been the better option.

[WeekapaugGroove]

That may be true but I doubt we get to the NFCCG without Favre that season

If that's year two of Rodgers starting I think they beat the Giants in that NFCG.

I don't have any proof but neither does anyone who claims a player would have ended up different had they sat longer or played sooner. That's the fun part about that argument is you can claim whatever you want and because we can't 'redevelop' a player you're never wrong.

Like I was saying yesterday the fact we never really see a high pick suck where he's drafted then go to another team and be a star might mean that this really doesn't matter and some guys will be good regardless and some will suck regardless.



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I guess I'm not talking about that Giants game specifically. I'm saying if Rodgers is the starter that season over Favre we likely don't even make it to the NFCCG. Favre was awesome that year, better than Rodgers was in 08 so I find it unlikely if Rodgers started a year earlier that Rodgers would take us as far as Favre did. Now I'm open to the idea that for that one specific game Rodgers would have been the better option.

I was more making a point that we're arguing the completely unprovable.

But man that game was hard to watch Favre who had been so good in the cold early in his career have it really impact his game that day.

It's also still super ironic how much the Rodgers pick against Detroit last year looked like that Favre pick in OT against the giants.

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[MVP2110]

If that's year two of Rodgers starting I think they beat the Giants in that NFCG.

I don't have any proof but neither does anyone who claims a player would have ended up different had they sat longer or played sooner. That's the fun part about that argument is you can claim whatever you want and because we can't 'redevelop' a player you're never wrong.

Like I was saying yesterday the fact we never really see a high pick suck where he's drafted then go to another team and be a star might mean that this really doesn't matter and some guys will be good regardless and some will suck regardless.



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I guess I'm not talking about that Giants game specifically. I'm saying if Rodgers is the starter that season over Favre we likely don't even make it to the NFCCG. Favre was awesome that year, better than Rodgers was in 08 so I find it unlikely if Rodgers started a year earlier that Rodgers would take us as far as Favre did. Now I'm open to the idea that for that one specific game Rodgers would have been the better option.

I was more making a point that we're arguing the completely unprovable.

But man that game was hard to watch Favre who had been so good in the cold early in his career have it really impact his game that day.

It's also still super ironic how much the Rodgers pick against Detroit last year looked like that Favre pick in OT against the giants.

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I'd say Jan 2022 vs SF was a better comparison. Rodgers was awesome in the 2021 season winning MVP, but then absolutely terrible in the playoff game vs SF. In both cases the old QB was great during the regular season but awful in the playoff game. Looking back on it with hindsight maybe Rodgers gives us a better chance vs NYG & Love gives us a better chance vs SF, but in both cases it'd be extremely hard to bench your MVP caliber QB in the playoffs

[M-C-G]

Rodgers had already sat for two years at that point. And I don't think Mahomes sitting for a year had a major impact on his development - that dude was bound to be a monster either way by virtue of having a great coach and lots of weapons.

So could be true but if bound to be a monster why didn’t he go 1.01?


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Just because several teams **** up by passing him up doesn't mean that the one year behind Alex Smith turned him into the best player in the NFL. Teams make mistakes all the time.

But the fact he didn't go that early, meant teams, scouts and most fans in now way believed at the time of the draft he was 'bound to be a monster'...that feels very revisionist. But to your point, knowing what we know now, I'm not sure starting or sitting would have made a difference for him but to keep that in a frame of reference he may go down as the best QB to ever play the game.

That's as atypical as guys playing as long as Brady, it is just too much of anomaly to compare to your 'typical QB'

[Matches Malone]

Read on Twitter

[Treebeard]

Read on Twitter

Does that constitute "Deed of Transfer of Ownership"?

[Matches Malone]

Here's the full segment with more on Love.

Read on Twitter

[humanrefutation]

So could be true but if bound to be a monster why didn’t he go 1.01?


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Just because several teams **** up by passing him up doesn't mean that the one year behind Alex Smith turned him into the best player in the NFL. Teams make mistakes all the time.

But the fact he didn't go that early, meant teams, scouts and most fans in now way believed at the time of the draft he was 'bound to be a monster'...that feels very revisionist. But to your point, knowing what we know now, I'm not sure starting or sitting would have made a difference for him but to keep that in a frame of reference he may go down as the best QB to ever play the game.

That's as atypical as guys playing as long as Brady, it is just too much of anomaly to compare to your 'typical QB'

Again, the fact that people didn't recognize his talent is not really relevant to the analysis of whether he was going to become a great player. Brady was drafted in the Sixth Round and became the GOAT. JaMarcus Russell was #1 overall and bombed. You can't put a lot of stock in scouting because it gets it wrong so often and it doesn't, in any way, prove that sitting for a year is why he became great. And I used Mahomes and Rodgers as evidence of guys who could have started sooner, simply as a soft rebuttal to RS's point that we "never" see that. We do see it, but it's so very rare precisely because it's rare that these guys sit at all.

But beyond that, I think the question of sit v. start has a lot more to do with the specific developmental needs of the QB itself, rather than some generalized rule. For example both Rodgers and Love came into the league with all sorts of physical traits but with some specific mechanical and technical deficits that needed repair. In Rodgers's case, he had some of the Tedford nonsense built into his throwing mechanics that needed to be redone. In Love's case, his footwork was ****. Those three years helped them a lot (and in Love's case, it was really two years because he didn't do much of anything during his COVID-altered rookie year).

But not all QBs needed that kind of repair. Justin Herbert was a monster as a rookie. Russell Wilson was really good, too. As was Dak. Mahomes looked really good in his one game as a rookie before dropping 50 TDs in his second year. I don't think sitting any of them for a year would have had a measurable impact on their careers.

On the other hand, I think you could have sat Trubisky for a decade and that dude would have been nothing better a walking pick waiting to happen.

[ReasonablySober]

Just because several teams **** up by passing him up doesn't mean that the one year behind Alex Smith turned him into the best player in the NFL. Teams make mistakes all the time.

But the fact he didn't go that early, meant teams, scouts and most fans in now way believed at the time of the draft he was 'bound to be a monster'...that feels very revisionist. But to your point, knowing what we know now, I'm not sure starting or sitting would have made a difference for him but to keep that in a frame of reference he may go down as the best QB to ever play the game.

That's as atypical as guys playing as long as Brady, it is just too much of anomaly to compare to your 'typical QB'

Again, the fact that people didn't recognize his talent is not really relevant to the analysis of whether he was going to become a great player. Brady was drafted in the Sixth Round and became the GOAT. JaMarcus Russell was #1 overall and bombed. You can't put a lot of stock in scouting because it gets it wrong so often and it doesn't, in any way, prove that sitting for a year is why he became great. And I used Mahomes and Rodgers as evidence of guys who could have started sooner, simply as a soft rebuttal to RS's point that we "never" see that. We do see it, but it's so very rare precisely because it's rare that these guys sit at all.

But beyond that, I think the question of sit v. start has a lot more to do with the specific developmental needs of the QB itself, rather than some generalized rule. For example both Rodgers and Love came into the league with all sorts of physical traits but with some specific mechanical and technical deficits that needed repair. In Rodgers's case, he had some of the Tedford nonsense built into his throwing mechanics that needed to be redone. In Love's case, his footwork was ****. Those three years helped them a lot (and in Love's case, it was really two years because he didn't do much of anything during his COVID-altered rookie year).

But not all QBs needed that kind of repair. Justin Herbert was a monster as a rookie. Russell Wilson was really good, too. As was Dak. Mahomes looked really good in his one game as a rookie before dropping 50 TDs in his second year. I don't think sitting any of them for a year would have had a measurable impact on their careers.

On the other hand, I think you could have sat Trubisky for a decade and that dude would have been nothing better a walking pick waiting to happen.

You can believe all that, or you can believe the words from Mahomes himself, who has talked numerous times about how sitting that year helped him.

“Just in preparation, the mental side of the game, I definitely benefited,” Mahomes said. “Being able to watch how teams made adjustments, and then how we made adjustments to the defense, how we’d figure out what blitzes they were bringing, how to protect them, it definitely helped me in the game [against the Chargers]. It’s knowing how to operate the huddle, and then being able to go out there and execute the game plan how it’s supposed to be run.”

“I may have made some of them, making the throws and all that,” he said. “But there are parts now where I’m so much further ahead mentally that I’m more comfortable in the pocket, I don’t have to worry about, ‘Am I protected?’ Or if I’m hot. I know those things. … Being able to throw the ball to the right spots and trusting my o-line, it’s definitely something I’ve gained as I’ve had that last year to learn.”