2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion

[bwgood77]

if this team played in any other city i would absolutely hate them and root adamantly against them, they have some of the least likeable players in the league for me, from KD's hyper sensitivity and immaturity that leads to him fighting with teenage fans on social media, Nurkic who was clowning the suns for being the nets 2.0, to now the most unlikeable player in the league in Allen. furthermore it does nothing for me to build like this, its had a lot to do with why i hated the Lakers, Warriors, and Yankees, just outspend, no need to develop players and let them grow, just go shopping every year...

whatever though, most of you will be fine with it as long as they win, me it will feel hollow even if they do and i am less excited for this team then any in recent memory

You're not alone.

21 team was great and we should have been able to see them grow together, with CP maybe taking a back seat or maybe even traded eventually.

Trading Ayton was a must. It was over for both sides. But this return feels like another failure in the Ayton Suns story. Even his trade is disappointing.

I will be rooting for this team because it's the Suns...but they've butchered what was a fun and complete team to root for. And in my opinion a better TEAM than this collection of players. We'll see...

Great points by both. Totally agree with hating the team if it wasn't Suns and your points, CK, about the young 21 team being great and could have grown together for years with some very likable guys. And yes, they were a better "team" and more fun to root for. Now we are an old team with 3 alpha dogs, injury prone players, some on their last legs, with minimum guys behind them mostly.

I really wish we hadn't made that finals run so early. Even just getting to the playoffs that year and going 7 games in the first round would have been a big step forward to where we had been. But when a bar gets set too high too quickly, everything is over scrutinized, expectations are through the roof and unrealistic. Most players hit their prime around 27-28, and Bridges just turned 27 as well as Cam, and then Ayton just turned 25. I like Beal though...but he is 30 and has been injured a bit the last few years. Nurkic 29. KD will be 35 in a couple of days. Nurkic and KD avg about 35-40 games a year the last 4 years.

[bwgood77]

From Sham’s article in The Athletic:

“League sources say the Suns, with their sights set on Nurkić and other roster depth, were planning to be a part of trades with the Bucks, Nets or Heat.

The Blazers began discussing the framework of the Suns’ involvement with the Ayton-for-Nurkić swap in mid-July but needed two months to find the third team for Lillard and ensure that they wouldn’t be entering the luxury tax given Ayton is on a max salary.

Interesting to hear who the Suns would have gotten from the Nets had a Nets deal went through. Fairly confident the Suns would have gotten Caleb Martin from the Heat as opposed to getting Grayson Allen. Perhaps Royce O'Neal from the Nets? Finney-Smith would have been a dream, but I doubt the Nets would have given him up. Kind of annoyed the Nets didn't pull the trigger for Lillard, as I think that would have been a very fun team to watch.

Yeah, I would have loved to see him on the Nets too. I know Dame loves Bridges, but just thinking about Dame/Bridges/Cam/DFS/Claxton would have been fun to watch. They probably would have given up Dinwiddie, some of our firsts and maybe Cam Thomas/Lonnie Walker or something. Seems like they could have made a better offer, though Portland probably figures they will be able to get something very good for Jrue. They should be able to get Herro for him. But there are several teams after him.

[lilfishi22]

Ayton fans will never get it. No one really wanted to sign him to the max, no one really wanted to give up any value for him. Truth is a hard pill to swallow I guess.

Then.... you....keep....him.

Giving him away for bum like Nurk and much less paying for the honor is stupid. Something 1 of the haters would do here.

It was a silly move.

The silly move wasn’t trading Ayton. The silly move wasn’t trading Ayton for Nurkic. The silly move was helping the Bucks get Lillard and now probably Clippers, Warriors or Lakers getting Jrue.
How dumb can you be to do that?

Nah the silly move was not drafting Jokic when we had the chance in 2014 which actually did lead to the Nuggets winning the 2023 NBA championship.

[bwgood77]

Ya I think people underestimate the injuries for Nurk he is a big with significant leg and feet issues going into his 30s that usually isn't a positive for movement when you are already not very athletic.

Suns don't need an athletic big. They need an actual big up who can be a present in the paint, like posting up and grabbing boards...

Suns have enough scorers and don't need the big to score.

This is the exact reason Bogut worked out for the Warriors

I've seen Bogut mentioned a couple of times. Bogut was a great player, #1 pick, phenomenal defender, very smart player. Nurkic is not Bogut.

[matt131]

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Wonder what we would have done had Dame been granted his wish to rescind his trade request. Who is taking Ayton off our hands at that point?

[bwgood77]

Blazers needed the Suns to facilitate trading Dame. One could argue that Ayton had to be traded eventually, after everything that happened or that his value wasn't exactly sky-high. But what we got for him is hot garbage - Nurkic will be barely playable in PO, just wait and see; Keon is a frontrunner for next waive, Little is like 10th or 11th guy in rotation level; Allen is yet another end of the bench guy and an absolute prick.

We made a trade that was instant quality downgrade for us and at the same helped other contender. If the idea was just to dump Ayton, they could've at least scoop a second round pick or two in the process. This is bad on so many levels.

This Ishbia guy built a fantastically dysfunctional team that'll take years (which we don't have) to gel into something meaningful. But it's okay, he can start anew and completely overhaul the whole roster in a year, but this time not forgetting to also ship Booker and the ballboy. That sounds really fun.

It will be hard to overhaul the roster for awhile. At least we have our draft pick next year. Hopefully we have some good scouts given we have no young players/development players. I wonder if we will use those 2nds we did get or use them in trade.

[bwgood77]

I think enough time has passed for people to vent about the trade. Let's try to move into a positive direction. It's making this place toxic

Good luck it's been toxic why most posters left

I haven't been here as much, but hasn't this trade only been a day? Enough time passed? Think about how long we talk about some things? People are still bring up Luka.

We did make one great trade this summer, but it was a no brainer and easy given Beal had a no trade clause so they had to trade him to us for whatever they could get. That is the biggest silver lining for this offseason for me. Two trades i didn't like, ESPECIALLY the KD one, not only Bridges/Cam pieces, but also all those unprotected firsts, leading also to the loss of GoK.

I don't really care about this one as much, though I don't think people realize that some of the main things people complained about with Ayton are worse with Nurkic (not finishing at rim, turnovers, wanting more touches), plus he can's shoot free throws or stay healthy.

[bwgood77]

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Couple of nice passes there, especially the first one. David is the best Suns twitter analyst....or actually Suns "analyst" period.

[bwgood77]

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David always has some smart points but I really think this trade was far far more about removing Ayton and his contact than it was about who they got back.

It's really as simple as they didn't believe in him anymore and I suspect that includes guys like Booker and KD. It's also about breaking that max contract slot into 3 smaller contracts. You can have 3 max guys and find a way to get under the second apron, it's pretty much impossible with 4. So this off-season they chose Beal taking that slot over Ayton. Well see if it's the right move. I also think it gives them more lineup and offensive freedom because there was a level of minutes and involvement you felt DA needed. If Nurk wants to complain they can tell him to **** off much easier and his contact is also easier to trade if you had to.

Sent from my SM-F731U using RealGM mobile app

Yes, I think it was several factors...the apron, avoiding the tax/repeater tax in future, and I think Book wanted him gone, and if that's the case, there is no choice. KD hasn't been around long enough to have that big of an opinion I don't think. CP3 probably did before he left though.

[sunsbum]

Blazers needed the Suns to facilitate trading Dame. One could argue that Ayton had to be traded eventually, after everything that happened or that his value wasn't exactly sky-high. But what we got for him is hot garbage - Nurkic will be barely playable in PO, just wait and see; Keon is a frontrunner for next waive, Little is like 10th or 11th guy in rotation level; Allen is yet another end of the bench guy and an absolute prick.

We made a trade that was instant quality downgrade for us and at the same helped other contender. If the idea was just to dump Ayton, they could've at least scoop a second round pick or two in the process. This is bad on so many levels.

This Ishbia guy built a fantastically dysfunctional team that'll take years (which we don't have) to gel into something meaningful. But it's okay, he can start anew and completely overhaul the whole roster in a year, but this time not forgetting to also ship Booker and the ballboy. That sounds really fun.

It will be hard to overhaul the roster for awhile. At least we have our draft pick next year. Hopefully we have some good scouts given we have no young players/development players. I wonder if we will use those 2nds we did get or use them in trade.

If I were the Suns I'd try to parlay this years first into a couple or three 2nds.

[garrick]

The Ayton trade is a little disappointing as I was hoping they would hold onto him. I like Nurkic, Allen in the deal. However Ayton was not a complete flop as a Sun and being a #1 draft pick. The Suns did make the Finals with him on the roster. That's more you can claim than some #1 picks. Ultimately the Suns decided to end the Ayton experiment and yes it was likely a salary related move along with maybe Ayton wanted out. Still it's not like the Suns did not have some success with Ayton picked at #1, they did. So should they have picked Doncic, yes, but Ayton was not a total bust is what I am trying to say. He is still a developing player. If he winds up putting up Drob stats than Blazers got a steal. Suns though are in win now mode they don't want to keep developing a player.

Also it's been well known that James Jones just doesn't like developing players and he prefers to stack his teams with more proven vets and with his complete overhaul of the roster we have completely gotten rid of our young core sans Booker and filled it with mostly vets.

Even the rookies he drafted he chose older players who did 4 years in college like Bridges, Cam and Stix & he seems to not have the patience to get a project player that needs a significant amount of development.

Time will tell if JJ's approach was the right one I guess.

[bwgood77]

Blazers needed the Suns to facilitate trading Dame. One could argue that Ayton had to be traded eventually, after everything that happened or that his value wasn't exactly sky-high. But what we got for him is hot garbage - Nurkic will be barely playable in PO, just wait and see; Keon is a frontrunner for next waive, Little is like 10th or 11th guy in rotation level; Allen is yet another end of the bench guy and an absolute prick.

We made a trade that was instant quality downgrade for us and at the same helped other contender. If the idea was just to dump Ayton, they could've at least scoop a second round pick or two in the process. This is bad on so many levels.

This Ishbia guy built a fantastically dysfunctional team that'll take years (which we don't have) to gel into something meaningful. But it's okay, he can start anew and completely overhaul the whole roster in a year, but this time not forgetting to also ship Booker and the ballboy. That sounds really fun.

It will be hard to overhaul the roster for awhile. At least we have our draft pick next year. Hopefully we have some good scouts given we have no young players/development players. I wonder if we will use those 2nds we did get or use them in trade.

If I were the Suns I'd try to parlay this years first into a couple or three 2nds.

I don't think we can trade it, and we are a couple of injuries from being an 8 seed or so, so it could be a pick in the mid teens.

[matt131]

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Jake Fischer:
“We also discussed Boston’s chances at acquiring “Jrue Detective,” as well as Phoenix’s ongoing interest in Pacers guard T.J. McConnell, per sources.”

[Steve Nashidis]

Why the Suns helped Bucks to be contenders ? There is no way Bucks getting Lillard without the Suns. We trade Ayton for a worst package from a possible trade with Indiana or OKC. 2 of the 4 players are going to be cutted so giving Camara for nothing is also a negative point.

Nurkic has health issues but he fits better to the screening, fighting, rebounding and finishing role than Ayton. Still remember Ayton's inability to catch the ball many times under the basket.

Another thing in my mind is that when Blazzers trade Jrue Holiday to a team, there will be another contender against us. Maybe Celtics get him.

We still lack of a veteran playmaker. I think to get one before late November. All champions team need a veteran pg , no matter what.

A good point for Ishbia is that he knows how to get things done on trades. Maybe it is the first trade that we have a theoretical negative point in his era, but Suns roster is much better than the running champion trip back in 2021.

Sorry for my english. Greetings from Greece

[Saberestar]

Why the Suns helped Bucks to be contenders ? There is no way Bucks getting Lillard without the Suns. We trade Ayton for a worst package from a possible trade with Indiana or OKC. 2 of the 4 players are going to be cutted so giving Camara for nothing is also a negative point.

Nurkic has health issues but he fits better to the screening, fighting, rebounding and finishing role than Ayton. Still remember Ayton's inability to catch the ball many times under the basket.

Another thing in my mind is that when Blazzers trade Jrue Holiday to a team, there will be another contender against us. Maybe Celtics get him.

We still lack of a veteran playmaker. I think to get one before late November. All champions team need a veteran pg , no matter what.

A good point for Ishbia is that he knows how to get things done on trades. Maybe it is the first trade that we have a theoretical negative point in his era, but Suns roster is much better than the running champion trip back in 2021.

Sorry for my english. Greetings from Greece

Personally I am not sure that current Lillard makes the Bucks better than with Holiday.

Holiday is the best perimeter defender in the NBA IMO. No Smart, No Mikal, No Brooks...it's Holiday.

The guy can make your life hell with his tough defense and we saw it in the Finals. He really bothered Book and CP3.

Lillard is an amazing offensive player but he is a below average defender. That's gonna be a factor, we will see.

Regarding Camara, we needed to trade him because the Blazers wanted him. And we aren't gonna cut 2 players from the trade, we are gonna waive (presumably) Wainright and Keon Johnson.

[Mulhollanddrive]

Don't like Bucks getting Payne for free either, imagine he plays against us in the finals with Lillard and they beat us and we made that happen. And even if Holiday goes East there's a good chance we strengthened one of those 2 teams who make finals.

Holiday is very underrated, he's Chris Paul-like but younger. With better +/- numbers than Giannis or Middleton. Because even if his shooting isn't great he still gets a 3 or 4 to 1 assist ratio in playoffs and is the best guard defender against superstars in playoffs which makes his floor still able to high impact his team. The more I think about it the less I think Lillard for Holiday, Allen is a slam dunk for them as Lillard teams always struggle with defense and Bucks may have a bit of our problem scoring 125 but getting beaten by 130.

If a team like GSW, Lakers or Clippers get Holiday (and stay healthy) they would be the team I would want to avoid most. Holiday (or Lillard) would have been a perfect fit on our team but we made our bed with Beal.

[Saberestar]

Don't like Bucks getting Payne for free either, imagine he plays against us in the finals with Lillard and they beat us and we made that happen. And even if Holiday goes East there's a good chance we strengthened one of those 2 teams who make finals.

Holiday is very underrated, he's Chris Paul-like but younger. With better +/- numbers than Giannis or Middleton. Because even if his shooting isn't great he still gets a 3 or 4 to 1 assist ratio in playoffs and is the best guard defender against superstars in playoffs which makes his floor still able to high impact his team. The more I think about it the less I think Lillard for Holiday, Allen is a slam dunk for them as Lillard teams always struggle with defense and Bucks may have a bit of our problem scoring 125 but getting beaten by 130.

If a team like GSW, Lakers or Clippers get Holiday (and stay healthy) they would be the team I would want to avoid most. Holiday (or Lillard) would have been a perfect fit on our team but we made our bed with Beal.

My biggest nightmare is the Nuggets somehow someway getting Holiday. That would be a game changer addition.

[Fifii]

I read that Siakam doesn’t want sign extension with Toronto , so maybe we should wait to TD and try trade Ayton for Siakam ?

[Fo-Real]

People were talking at the end of the year about the Bucks possibly in store to go some toxic stuff. Giannis has been kinda cold on them and his name has been mentioned all summer as the next possible super star that changes teams. Now hearing they didn't even talk to him about ditching Jrue and getting Dame. Also the reports are out that Dame tried to back out of his request when he realized he wasn't gonna get to go to the heat and the Blazers were like "**** YOU, this cant be fixed". Its almost like they sent him to a possibly toxic situation out of spite........ MAYBE

[sunskerr]

Oh no I was worried Boston would be after Jrue right when I heard he was a floater in the trade bound for another destination. Looks like my fears have come true. Boston will be favorites if they get him without much alteration to their current team.

Hope to god he doesn't come west though to a top team.