O'Connor: The Magic Should Trade for Jrue Holiday

[thelead]

No thanks. Love Jrue but he'll be too costly and he can walk. Lets see what we have with AB.

[Def Swami]

The price is the main issue. I think Jrue Holiday the basketball player would be an amazing fit on this roster. But, for the expiring contract, I'm not sure what the price is.

[drsd]

Nobody here wanted Dame because he was 33 years old. Now people want Jrue... throwing all the same names and draft picks out as an offer. LOL

For me Simons might be MORE available because of Holiday. Portland's focus will be on getting a forward. I suspect that G-Harris, the Denver-pick and Isaac gets Simons. pepe and I would support that; but I wonder if management actually thinks "this is Isaac's year" and declines any notion of getting a new SG for the cost of Isaac.

[ogmagicfan]

Key here is: it's summer. It's either rehashed stuff or the board is dead.

Training camp is about to kick off we are about a month away from season kicking off I kinda want to get ready for that. Instead we’re talking about taking a U turn with our plan for an aging 3rd best player on a title team who will be retired in 2-3 years when Franz and Paolo hit their prime and are ready to rock and roll. I think we should focus on the players and the decisions that will need to be made to see who will be their supporting players. This trade would be perfect when we are the 4/5 seed looking to take next step.

Every time i watch Pelicans i see worst case scenario for rebuild. They are too good to not get resigned on crazy money, and not good enough to win games. Basically Pelicans are trapped between bloated salary of those two and fact they can't opt to rebuild again, after winning/trading for 1# pick, 2# pick, 2# pick.

If the Pelicans were able to stay healthy though, they would be a championship contender. It isn't about lack of talent. Only weakness they have is interior defense which is why theyre looking to move Valicuinas.

Paolo & Franz health has been good apart from the Paolo ankle injury & Franz nagging ankle.

[SOUL]

Nobody here wanted Dame because he was 33 years old. Now people want Jrue... throwing all the same names and draft picks out as an offer. LOL

For me Simons might be MORE available because of Holiday. Portland's focus will be on getting a forward. I suspect that G-Harris, the Denver-pick and Isaac gets Simons. pepe and I would support that; but I wonder if management actually thinks "this is Isaac's year" and declines any notion of getting a new SG for the cost of Isaac.

They moved Lillard so that they can rebuild with young guys, which will include Simons for now. Holiday is on the move already - they have no use for Harris or Isaac (and a pick).

[pepe1991]

but i'm terrified of idea that Franz Wagner this, Banchero next year will be making near $100M over next 6,7 years while spending years playing for nothing. What if they aren't that guys ?

I mean that's a whole diff discussion altogether right? If people are not sure about Franz or Paolo then I mean, no offense, but 99% of fans outside of contending teams would love to be in the position of finding out if Paolo or Franz are good enough to lead us

As far as Jrue goes, of course he could be useful here.. but he said he wanted to retire soon and his contract.. what are we gonna do, set off a bunch of fireworks and celebrate 7th seed and give away assets before guys are ready for deep playoff push? Timing is weird, you'd have to basically move a lot more people too.

I don't doubt our assets could acquire Jrue, but the timing of it risks some Cleveland timing where their young guys are still a bit green while Mitchell is already potentially teasing leaving next season and they'll have nothing to show for it but playoffs they probably already would've made naturally without that big move.. with a first round exit to boot.

Team will need to pull the trigger on a big move, but who and when is vital.

no offense, but 99% of fans outside of contending teams would love to be in the position of finding out if Paolo or Franz are good enough to lead us

Eh, i consider most fans in general - bit dumb and easly manipulated by media.

Go back in 2019 and you will see every single media outlet farting sunshine and rainbows in Pelicans direction as fans were debating how soon Pelicans will win title.

Even Ringer, who most people here, including me, respect as page, got sucked into that BS so you can find article named "The Zion-Era Pelicans May Be Closer to Competing Than You Think" written Jun 21, 2019, 12:51am EDT.

Fast forward, 4 years later, they are yet to make playoffs.

Could future look more brighter than this?

Read on Twitter

Than reality over years started to kick and we soon found out that Davis was actually still way more valuable than anything they got in return.

Lonzo- gone after 1 years- basically retired nowdays
Ingram- one of most overrated nba players
Hart -gone
8th pick- Jaxon Hayes - bust
17th pick- NAW- gone- bust
2021 pick- didn't convert
Dyson Daniels- apsolue bust
2023 swap- waste





I could only focus on Ingram for obvious reasons, as we talk about perception of player who puts up stats while playing for nothing. Ingram on team USA was like 12th most important body, he was overplayed by most international players in most games. Given he is 26, talking about him in context of "potential" is silly, guy is new day Mitch Richmond/Rudy Gay. Puts up stats, team never actually plays for anything, looks good in enviroment where nothing matters, most advance stats don't like him.

But in 2016 teams tanked ofr him and in around 2018-2019 he was goldenboy of trade talks.

what are we gonna do, set off a bunch of fireworks and celebrate 7th seed and give away assets before guys are ready for deep playoff push? Timing is weird, you'd have to basically move a lot more people too.

I'm not really sure what's alternative tho. Fight for 8-10th seed with Cole, Fultz, Okeke , Harris , Ingles and than overpay Cole & Fultz to keep, or miss playoffs and still make decisions based on kind a nothing tengable?

Fultz & Cole now play for some $21-22M cumulative salary, next year, in order to keep them, you will pay them +$40M.

I don't doubt our assets could acquire Jrue, but the timing of it risks some Cleveland timing where their young guys are still a bit green while Mitchell is already potentially teasing leaving next season and they'll have nothing to show for it but playoffs they probably already would've made naturally without that big move.. with a first round exit to boot.

Cavs are awkward team who's problem is boiling down to two very fixable solutions that they don't have guts to make.
1) Allen and Mobley are Cs and can't share floor
2) Okoro is Sami Oyelye / Wes Iwundu / insert name of random usless player who's only strenght was diving for ball

By just trading one of Allen/Mobley for SF who is worth anything, they would fix majority of their problems. Instad, they keep investing into dumpster bin because he is former 5th pick. Nevermind fact he is talentless bum who only plays hard because that's only "basketball" skill he has.

And Mitchell can leave, but let's not fool ourselfs, any player at any given moment can ask for a trade.
btw he has 2 years left + 1 player's option. So even if he is leaving, they will get value in return.

That's bit different situation than Jrue. Again, i'm not really 100% on whole Jrue Holiday idea, but imo team would have benefits from proven veteran who won championship and would help Banchero and Franz and we would probably make playoffs.
I understand he can retire, but at the end of a day it boils down to decision what would you rather have:

1) Fultz + Cole, Harris this , Suggs next year being in contract years and paying them massive new deals while ,still maybe not being playoff team. Where are you going from there?
2) paying Holiday , making playoffs and clearing some roster cluster at PG-SG spots

[Skybox]

[

That's bit different situation than Jrue. Again, i'm not really 100% on whole Jrue Holiday idea, but imo team would have benefits from proven veteran who won championship and would help Banchero and Franz and we would probably make playoffs.
I understand he can retire, but at the end of a day it boils down to decision what would you rather have:

1) Fultz + Cole, Harris this , Suggs next year being in contract years and paying them massive new deals while ,still maybe not being playoff team. Where are you going from there?
2) paying Holiday , making playoffs and clearing some roster cluster at PG-SG spots

Agree with this …we seem overly concerned with the “risk” that one of our present mediocre players MIGHT turn out to be a star…so much so that we won’t make a relatively non-momentous move for players who already are better than our own guy’s upside (that they probably won’t even reach)…same thing with overvaluation of picks…what’s the TRUE likelihood that a couple of our picks (and/or Den) will actually produce a player as impactful as Jrue (even just for a year or two) or Herro, Simons, etc?

Suggs is the only guard on the roster I’d be hesitant to move…I feel like he’s got an “it” factor and toughness that’s rare.
I like Cole and expect him to improve…but to what peak?

If Jrue wasn’t absolutely opposed to ORL, you get him as an investment in Paolo & Franz…despite all of the “risks”

Really good two-way floor-spreading guards, who are old but healthy, with championship experience are rarely available. He’s also not a Dame-level superstar that will command a ridiculous all-in trade value. This doesn’t vault ORL into contention (there are NO single trades that could)…but it would vault ORL into league-wide relevance…I don’t agree with the “we’re not one move away from a ring” or “don’t cut corners “ or “develop organically” reasons to drag our feet. Really good, complementary players make each other better and winning is good.

[SOUL]

I don’t agree with the “we’re not one move away from a ring” or “don’t cut corners “ or “develop organically” reasons to drag our feet.

The reason for feet dragging is because we're not a endless well of value, less about risk or hoarding. Posters here will take a swig of any drink if it's offered in front of them. If you're giving value (which Jrue will command, not an insane amount but still good value which is finite) for a guy who may want out next year before the core of our guys are actually in contending mode, you just blew your wad for a guy who is 33 and is taxed to.. lead a bunch of 23 and under to a 6th-7th seed or something?

Jrue is an amazing player, but everything surrounding him from his age to his contract situation to his retirement comments does not pass the test of someone you should exhaust value for - especially if player movement is at an all time high and that value you gave up may be the value that takes you out of better players against teams like OKC or HOU or DET or IND or whichever up and coming young team is collecting assets.

We've seen plenty of young teams take a stab at "legitimizing their young core" and it fail from undue pressure:

Minny trading for Gobert (Kessler already owning for Utah)
Cavs trading for Mitchell (probably worth what they gave up, but hasn't worked out yet)
Trading Oladipo/Sabonis for Ibaka (ew)
Trading Tobias Harris for Brandon Jennings (lol)
Bulls trading for Vuc
Pierce + Garnett to Brooklyn(disastrous for Nets)
Nets giving up 4 picks + Allen + LeVert for a 3rd star in Harden
Clippers trading SGA for PG
+ a lot more

It's not about those other teams winning those trades or not, because other than the Celtics having sustained success from that trade, it's not like the other teams have done anything crazy.. some are set up nicely like OKC and Utah has some interesting assets.. it's that people deluded themselves into thinking their teams had to make some sort of move when either no move or waiting for someone else probably was the play.

Some of those were immediate regrets and others took a while to see, and like I said, some of them I think are good attempts in a vacuum (getting Mitchell, PG) - most are panic moves.

[SOUL]

But it does confuse me when people are like "Here's this player I do not like and think is bad... but them + a pick + Gary Harris is worth a really good player"

[VFX]

But it does confuse me when people are like "Here's this player I do not like and think is bad... but them + a pick + Gary Harris is worth a really good player"

Does not liking a player mean they have lesser value?

Jrue is on an expiring contract and he's already talked about retiring, so how high is his value really?

[The-Stallion70]

For those of us discussing Isaac... I doubt he has much trade value at all.

[pepe1991]

I don’t agree with the “we’re not one move away from a ring” or “don’t cut corners “ or “develop organically” reasons to drag our feet.

The reason for feet dragging is because we're not a endless well of value, less about risk or hoarding. Posters here will take a swig of any drink if it's offered in front of them. If you're giving value (which Jrue will command, not an insane amount but still good value which is finite) for a guy who may want out next year before the core of our guys are actually in contending mode, you just blew your wad for a guy who is 33 and is taxed to.. lead a bunch of 23 and under to a 6th-7th seed or something?

Jrue is an amazing player, but everything surrounding him from his age to his contract situation to his retirement comments does not pass the test of someone you should exhaust value for - especially if player movement is at an all time high and that value you gave up may be the value that takes you out of better players against teams like OKC or HOU or DET or IND or whichever up and coming young team is collecting assets.

We've seen plenty of young teams take a stab at "legitimizing their young core" and it fail from undue pressure:

Minny trading for Gobert (Kessler already owning for Utah)
Cavs trading for Mitchell (probably worth what they gave up, but hasn't worked out yet)
Trading Oladipo/Sabonis for Ibaka (ew)
Trading Tobias Harris for Brandon Jennings (lol)
Bulls trading for Vuc
Pierce + Garnett to Brooklyn(disastrous for Nets)
Nets giving up 4 picks + Allen + LeVert for a 3rd star in Harden
Clippers trading SGA for PG
+ a lot more

It's not about those other teams winning those trades or not, because other than the Celtics having sustained success from that trade, it's not like the other teams have done anything crazy.. some are set up nicely like OKC and Utah has some interesting assets.. it's that people deluded themselves into thinking their teams had to make some sort of move when either no move or waiting for someone else probably was the play.

Some of those were immediate regrets and others took a while to see, and like I said, some of them I think are good attempts in a vacuum (getting Mitchell, PG) - most are panic moves.

Imo, fans and media get too cought up into "wins and loses" of trades that mean nothing.

Trying to win internet fans is like trying to win political debate against person with oppsosing opinion. It's apsolute waste of time.


There is team that in offsesason traded
9th pick from 2 years ago despite fact player was good
top 15 player at his position at age of 26
4 times allstar at age of 28

For
2 times allstar at age of 27
declining 34 years old player who shot 44% FG( 54% TS) as center
role player comming off 50,9% TS season at age of 31

Ringer described this trade as "punishment" and titled article "no fun here". Yep... That's pre-nba championship Raptors trades.

And year after "Losing two trades" Ujiri was out of sudden "mastermind".

NBA teams have no business being in business of winning internet feuds and "winning " trades. You should construct roster that makes sense, goes forward and has clear goals.


All trades you mentioned have one thing in common. Not a single one really impacted league to a point where other team won championship because of it. And even biggest loser of them all, Nets, still menaged to scrap together solid roster and biggest winner, Celtics, never actually won anything.


Hell, i'll give you another instant internet "win" trade

Team A gives up : all nba defense first and second player, 2020 first round pick, 2024 swap rights, 2025 unprotected pick, 2026 swap rights, 2027 unprotected pick

Team B gets: 1 time allstar (age 30) , 2 times all nba defensive member


Optics say " those bum B team got played, look at hose suckers, they gave up future for who" . Wep...that's Bledsoe for Jrue Holiday trade. Bucks won championship. Pelicans won hearts of reddit fans who play playstation games and live in fantasy land.

PElicans are wet dream of 80% of fans on this forum. Ultimate all rebuild, 500000 picks team. Trouble is, picks don't play basketball and 3 things are certain in life: death, taxes and Pelicans sucking.

[JojoSlimbiid]

I don't understand this. Hasn't Jrue specifically said he is playing on his last contract in order to be with his wife who had brain cancer a few years ago?

[pepe1991]

I don't understand this. Hasn't Jrue specifically said he is playing on his last contract in order to be with his wife who had brain cancer a few years ago?

“It’s funny cause my wife and I had this conversation; I think it was two days ago. She was like, ‘Are you serious after this contract? Are you serious about retiring?’ I’m like, 'Yes, I feel very strongly about it,'” Holiday said.

His contract doesn't expire this year, he has player's option for year later, worth near $36M.


And even if he retires, you just get free $35M in books.


I haven't seen anybody yelling we should offer 12 unprotected picks for him. He should be rather cheap take. Like, Harris, Fultz, 2024 pick with some protection on it.

Odds are, Fultz, Harris ,2024 pick won't be here next year anyway

[JojoSlimbiid]

I don't understand this. Hasn't Jrue specifically said he is playing on his last contract in order to be with his wife who had brain cancer a few years ago?

“It’s funny cause my wife and I had this conversation; I think it was two days ago. She was like, ‘Are you serious after this contract? Are you serious about retiring?’ I’m like, 'Yes, I feel very strongly about it,'” Holiday said.

His contract doesn't expire this year, he has player's option for year later, worth near $36M.


And even if he retires, you just get free $35M in books.


I haven't seen anybody yelling we should offer 12 unprotected picks for him. He should be rather cheap take. Like, Harris, Fultz, 2024 pick with some protection on it.

Odds are, Fultz, Harris ,2024 pick won't be here next year anyway

So we're trading almost nothing for two years of a vet thinking about retirement while I assume wanting to play for a ring in the last two years of his career? Like the 35 in the books means nothing to me because no one of any note is signing here. There is literally no needle being moved here either way.

[SHAQ32]

What a terrible idea.

[pepe1991]

I don't understand this. Hasn't Jrue specifically said he is playing on his last contract in order to be with his wife who had brain cancer a few years ago?

“It’s funny cause my wife and I had this conversation; I think it was two days ago. She was like, ‘Are you serious after this contract? Are you serious about retiring?’ I’m like, 'Yes, I feel very strongly about it,'” Holiday said.

His contract doesn't expire this year, he has player's option for year later, worth near $36M.


And even if he retires, you just get free $35M in books.


I haven't seen anybody yelling we should offer 12 unprotected picks for him. He should be rather cheap take. Like, Harris, Fultz, 2024 pick with some protection on it.

Odds are, Fultz, Harris ,2024 pick won't be here next year anyway

So we're trading almost nothing for two years of a vet thinking about retirement while I assume wanting to play for a ring in the last two years of his career? Like the 35 in the books means nothing to me because no one of any note is signing here. There is literally no needle being moved here either way.

in economy you call those moves opportunity cost. Cost of missed opportunity.

what would you rather have:

1) two players who both can leave for nothing in a year
2) one player that can retire in a year but who is much better than those two, but with much lower chance of staying




There isn't "winning" solution here. Fultz can play himself into $25M a year contract and leave to some Spurs next year for nothing. Cole can simply become too expensive for what Magic want to pay and leave. Jrue can flat out retire.

[Skybox]

“It’s funny cause my wife and I had this conversation; I think it was two days ago. She was like, ‘Are you serious after this contract? Are you serious about retiring?’ I’m like, 'Yes, I feel very strongly about it,'” Holiday said.

His contract doesn't expire this year, he has player's option for year later, worth near $36M.


And even if he retires, you just get free $35M in books.


I haven't seen anybody yelling we should offer 12 unprotected picks for him. He should be rather cheap take. Like, Harris, Fultz, 2024 pick with some protection on it.

Odds are, Fultz, Harris ,2024 pick won't be here next year anyway

So we're trading almost nothing for two years of a vet thinking about retirement while I assume wanting to play for a ring in the last two years of his career? Like the 35 in the books means nothing to me because no one of any note is signing here. There is literally no needle being moved here either way.

in economy you call those moves opportunity cost. Cost of missed opportunity.

what would you rather have:

1) two players who both can leave for nothing in a year
2) one player that can retire in a year but who is much better than those two, but with much lower chance of staying




There isn't "winning" solution here. Fultz can play himself into $25M a year contract and leave to some Spurs next year for nothing. Cole can simply become too expensive for what Magic want to pay and leave. Jrue can flat out retire.

there's more...analyzing trades as win/lose in a vacuum is flawed in that even one year of a championship caliber star guard could have much more impact on the POSITIVE development of other young players - particularly the two that matter most, not to mention the potential impact for a guy like Suggs and/or Black to learn at Jrue's side...There's also an element of "addition by subtraction" in our backcourt - too many guys who deserve a long look and not enough minutes-it's not a luxury, it's a chemistry curse and a waste of a season(s).

Plus, there's a LOT of money at stake. It's not written in stone that he leaves (or that, if he does, it's not a sign and trade) - he might love the coach, love the environment and the community. From all accounts, Jrue is a high-character, low profile guy, he might actually like it here. If he does leave or retire - hey we tried. Running it back with our lovable losers isn't trying anything and it only compounds when we re-sign them for the money a good player commands because we hope they'll get good. Worst scenario we have cap space and a year of improved production and development of other players seeing what it's like to play with a winner.

As I said in an earlier post, if we don't think we can keep good players without shackles or get good players without a strait jacket, we probably should move the franchise elsewhere. Jrue could be a big step in our franchise being taken seriously again.

[Audi]

“It’s funny cause my wife and I had this conversation; I think it was two days ago. She was like, ‘Are you serious after this contract? Are you serious about retiring?’ I’m like, 'Yes, I feel very strongly about it,'” Holiday said.

His contract doesn't expire this year, he has player's option for year later, worth near $36M.


And even if he retires, you just get free $35M in books.


I haven't seen anybody yelling we should offer 12 unprotected picks for him. He should be rather cheap take. Like, Harris, Fultz, 2024 pick with some protection on it.

Odds are, Fultz, Harris ,2024 pick won't be here next year anyway

So we're trading almost nothing for two years of a vet thinking about retirement while I assume wanting to play for a ring in the last two years of his career? Like the 35 in the books means nothing to me because no one of any note is signing here. There is literally no needle being moved here either way.

in economy you call those moves opportunity cost. Cost of missed opportunity.

what would you rather have:

1) two players who both can leave for nothing in a year
2) one player that can retire in a year but who is much better than those two, but with much lower chance of staying




There isn't "winning" solution here. Fultz can play himself into $25M a year contract and leave to some Spurs next year for nothing. Cole can simply become too expensive for what Magic want to pay and leave. Jrue can flat out retire.

True. All bad scenario possibilities. It's just that only one of those bad outcomes would almost certainly be exacerbated by losing additional assets in the form of pick(s).

[Skybox]

So we're trading almost nothing for two years of a vet thinking about retirement while I assume wanting to play for a ring in the last two years of his career? Like the 35 in the books means nothing to me because no one of any note is signing here. There is literally no needle being moved here either way.

in economy you call those moves opportunity cost. Cost of missed opportunity.

what would you rather have:

1) two players who both can leave for nothing in a year
2) one player that can retire in a year but who is much better than those two, but with much lower chance of staying




There isn't "winning" solution here. Fultz can play himself into $25M a year contract and leave to some Spurs next year for nothing. Cole can simply become too expensive for what Magic want to pay and leave. Jrue can flat out retire.

True. All bad scenario possibilities. It's just that only one of those bad outcomes would almost certainly be exacerbated by losing additional assets in the form of pick(s).

that's true...upside/downside, risk/reward are all there. We just disagree on the depth of the downside vs the potential success, I guess. Jrue might not be the ideal move, but some of us think the backcourt, as presently constructed, needs a shakeup...we are way too deep with prospects and not sure if there's even an NBA starter among them. There's certainly a degree of risk in culling the herd for the sake of clarity but there's danger in being indecisive and vision-less and letting it ride as is too.

The only saving grace is none of them are getting paid significant starter money (but two are up for it soon). I wouldn't pay any of them until they separate from the pack and they clearly haven't (enough) IMO.