2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors

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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#21 » by tsherkin » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:54 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:^ now that’s some special level hating rating


You're gonna just hang that out there without support?
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#22 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Fri Sep 29, 2023 10:09 am

Raptors needed both Klay and KD to be gone to bear a Warriors team with a weak bench.

2019 Raptors are one of the weaker championship teams.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#23 » by AEnigma » Fri Sep 29, 2023 11:39 am

The Raptors were beating the Warriors in Klay’s minutes too.

Yeah, they probably do not win if Durant if there for the entire series, but they would have a substantially better shot than the Mavericks would.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#24 » by MyUniBroDavis » Fri Sep 29, 2023 2:38 pm

tsherkin wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:^ now that’s some special level hating rating


You're gonna just hang that out there without support?


The Kawhi part in the last paragraph about being a selfish guy always looking for a way out is nasty, it basically is only talking about San Antonio since obviously he did the job in Toronto and San Antonio were 100% at fault lol (I get the “oh it’s San Antonio!” And Tbf I have some insider knowledge of how it went down but yeah if 100% makes sense why kawhi left)

“He’s selfish and his teammates know this as well he’s always looking for a way out”

It read like some hater psychologist BS, so I don’t really think it justifies any sort of response other than saying it is what it is
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#25 » by OhayoKD » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:08 pm

scrabbarista wrote:I've said before: that Raps team was a juggernaut. I'm taking them over many teams better than 2011 Dallas.

But it's a fair point that Dallas wasn't really an "on paper" team who seemed to get "more than the most" out of its very considerable talent.

The raptors on paper should have been one of the best teams ever. But, like the 2015 warriors and the 2001 Lakers, they ended up looking suprsingly mortal. That being said, alot of that mortality can be put down to deceptively strong competition. The sixers were not what they really were till the end of the season and were played like a legitimate title-threat vs the nets. The Bucks were very dominant even in the first two rounds, and the warriors without kd still secured two wins vs the rockets and went ballistic vs the blazers.

Even orlando was probably better than the season-wide stats would suggest posting the best record post-asb.

On the other hand the Mavs on paper looked like a normal contender. They ended up looking like a juggernaut. Competition was maybe not as strong as the raw numbers would suggest(lakers, heat), but it's worth considering regardless
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#26 » by OhayoKD » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:13 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Now, objectively, they didn't have anything like Toronto's offense, they didn't have the same kind of in with a superstar like they seemed to with Lebron wilting in that series, they didn't leverage the 3 like a modern team and Toronto was a really, really good defense. So as you say, on paper, for sure.


When is this series being played? Because Rick Carlisle is certainly leveraging the 3 in 2019 (or later) and Toronto isn't in 2011. That's one of the issues with time machine analysis. We give the more modern team strategic advantages they would never actually have if the game was actually able to be played.

The issue is your desire to artificially make things better or worse than they actually were.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#27 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:15 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Now, objectively, they didn't have anything like Toronto's offense, they didn't have the same kind of in with a superstar like they seemed to with Lebron wilting in that series, they didn't leverage the 3 like a modern team and Toronto was a really, really good defense. So as you say, on paper, for sure.


When is this series being played? Because Rick Carlisle is certainly leveraging the 3 in 2019 (or later) and Toronto isn't in 2011. That's one of the issues with time machine analysis. We give the more modern team strategic advantages they would never actually have if the game was actually able to be played.

The issue is your desire to artificially make things better or worse than they actually were.


Hey you don't respect my posts. That's cool. I'm far from the smartest poster here.

But do me a favor and just don't quote me since I'm beneath you. I'm not here for your combative and attacking style of responding to me every time you engage. This just ain't that serious.

I'm not intentionally doing any such thing, though I understand like all of us at times I inadvertently do. But instead of addressingthe merits (or lack of) of my posts you just attack me as a poster which is middle schooly.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#28 » by tsherkin » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:21 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
tsherkin wrote:Now, objectively, they didn't have anything like Toronto's offense, they didn't have the same kind of in with a superstar like they seemed to with Lebron wilting in that series, they didn't leverage the 3 like a modern team and Toronto was a really, really good defense. So as you say, on paper, for sure.


When is this series being played? Because Rick Carlisle is certainly leveraging the 3 in 2019 (or later) and Toronto isn't in 2011. That's one of the issues with time machine analysis. We give the more modern team strategic advantages they would never actually have if the game was actually able to be played.

The issue is your desire to artificially make things better or worse than they actually were.


Chuck raised a good point, though; there are things different between 2011 and 2019 which are of some consequence here. Any time you're discussing teams/players who are distant by almost a decade or more, that stuff starts to creep in. Toronto's style existed in part because of teams like the 2011 Mavs and the Spurs of the same period opening things open and using the 3 more frequently, for example. And Rick Carlisle just coached an Indiana team that was 7th the league at 37.0 3PA/g, so it's not like he's been a staunch body of resistance to 3pt shooting in this age.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#29 » by OhayoKD » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:22 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
When is this series being played? Because Rick Carlisle is certainly leveraging the 3 in 2019 (or later) and Toronto isn't in 2011. That's one of the issues with time machine analysis. We give the more modern team strategic advantages they would never actually have if the game was actually able to be played.

The issue is your desire to artificially make things better or worse than they actually were.


Hey you don't respect my posts. That's cool. I'm far from the smartest poster here.

But do me a favor and just don't quote me since I'm beneath you. I'm not here for your combative and attacking style of responding to me every time you engage. This just ain't that serious.

I'm not intentionally doing any such thing, though I understand like all of us at times I inadvertently do. But instead of addressingthe merits (or lack of) of my posts you just attack me as a poster which is middle schooly.

I am directly addressing your point. That's about as far from "i am above you" as it gets.

You routinely strawman people before insisting they don't watch the game. I'm not interested in double standards
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#30 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:24 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:The issue is your desire to artificially make things better or worse than they actually were.


Hey you don't respect my posts. That's cool. I'm far from the smartest poster here.

But do me a favor and just don't quote me since I'm beneath you. I'm not here for your combative and attacking style of responding to me every time you engage. This just ain't that serious.

I'm not intentionally doing any such thing, though I understand like all of us at times I inadvertently do. But instead of addressingthe merits (or lack of) of my posts you just attack me as a poster which is middle schooly.

I am directly addressing your point. That's about as far from "i am above you" as it gets.

You routinely strawman people before insisting they don't watch the game. I'm not interested in double standards


Find one quote of me telling another poster they don't watch the games. You can't.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#31 » by Jadoogar » Fri Sep 29, 2023 5:33 pm

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Raptors needed both Klay and KD to be gone to bear a Warriors team with a weak bench.

2019 Raptors are one of the weaker championship teams.


i hate this reasoning. KD warriors were a juggernaut, basically no team in history could beat that team when healthy. 2 MVP candidates in their prime with 2 all nba players who are perfect fits.

To say the Raptors are weak because they would have lost to that team if healthy is insane, every team would have lost to them.

Secondly, it's not like the raptors skipped the eastern conference and only played one series. They beat 2 extremely strong teams on the way to the finals.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#32 » by OhayoKD » Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:32 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Hey you don't respect my posts. That's cool. I'm far from the smartest poster here.

But do me a favor and just don't quote me since I'm beneath you. I'm not here for your combative and attacking style of responding to me every time you engage. This just ain't that serious.

I'm not intentionally doing any such thing, though I understand like all of us at times I inadvertently do. But instead of addressingthe merits (or lack of) of my posts you just attack me as a poster which is middle schooly.

I am directly addressing your point. That's about as far from "i am above you" as it gets.

You routinely strawman people before insisting they don't watch the game. I'm not interested in double standards


Find one quote of me telling another poster they don't watch the games. You can't.

Yeah okay, I misremembered. You repeatedly insisted "you don't know the player" but that is not the same. Nonetheless that is clearly more combative than what I just said and a "it is the truth" spheal in response to me pointing out you misrepresented me is as "above you" as it gets.

On this very subject, you described "time-machines" as "fanfiction" repeatedly while also side-stepping the relevant points while calling the approach "the lowest of the low".

Keep doing that kind of thing if you want, but do not turn around and pretend me more directly critiquing your approach without theatrics or embellishment is somehow

A. More combative
B. Not addressing your points
C. "above you"  

I do not respect when people apply different rules for themselves than others
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#33 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:40 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:I am directly addressing your point. That's about as far from "i am above you" as it gets.

You routinely strawman people before insisting they don't watch the game. I'm not interested in double standards


Find one quote of me telling another poster they don't watch the games. You can't.

Yeah okay, I misremembered. You repeatedly insisted "you don't know the player" but that is not the same. Nonetheless that is clearly more combative than what I just said and a "it is the truth" spheal in response to me pointing out you misrepresented me is as "above you" as it gets.

On this very subject, you described "time-machines" as "fanfiction" repeatedly while also side-stepping the relevant points while calling the approach "the lowest of the low".

Keep doing that kind of thing if you want, but do not turn around and pretend me more directly critiquing your approach without theatrics or embellishment is somehow

A. More combative
B. Not addressing your points
C. "above you"  

I do not respect when people apply different rules for themselves than others


I have zero issues when people call out my arguments as lacking merit. You did not do that. You accused me of something very specific I clearly wasn't doing itt. I even made it clear I wasn't choosing Dallas over Toronto or even taking a dog in that fight. I was just pointing out that looking at the history of the 11 Mavs I'd not be comfortable dismissing them.

And in the post you quoted where tsherkin implied they are at a disadvantage of the 3's I simply asked a follow up question about when the game takes place.

And yes time machines aren't real and are stupid. I stand by that. I don't tell posters who use them that they are stupid. But I'm willing to tell them that approach is flawed imo.

And then in your rebuttal you just made up an attack on me. Then you've had to backtrack. Again--my points? Go hard at them. I'm willing to debate. I'm willing to admit when I get things wrong.

But to say I'm trying to make someone artificially better in a thread where I'm clearly not. Or to accuse me of telling others to watch the game falsely? It's lame.

Not beneath me. I'm not above anyone and I have my own argumentative flaws as you are happy to point out. I acknowledge all the time my biases and weak areas on this board. But again,there are posters here I don't respect and so I ignore them. You should do the same to me.

I don't ignore you because despite your aggressive style you clearly have plenty of good substance to provide. You just haven't chosen to here. Instead launching an attack for perceived previous offenses.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#34 » by OhayoKD » Fri Sep 29, 2023 7:57 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Find one quote of me telling another poster they don't watch the games. You can't.

Yeah okay, I misremembered. You repeatedly insisted "you don't know the player" but that is not the same. Nonetheless that is clearly more combative than what I just said and a "it is the truth" spheal in response to me pointing out you misrepresented me is as "above you" as it gets.

On this very subject, you described "time-machines" as "fanfiction" repeatedly while also side-stepping the relevant points while calling the approach "the lowest of the low".

Keep doing that kind of thing if you want, but do not turn around and pretend me more directly critiquing your approach without theatrics or embellishment is somehow

A. More combative
B. Not addressing your points
C. "above you"  

I do not respect when people apply different rules for themselves than others


I have zero issues when people call out my arguments as lacking merit. You did not do that. You accused me of something very specific I clearly wasn't doing itt. I even made it clear I wasn't choosing Dallas over Toronto or even taking a dog in that fight. I was just pointing out that looking at the history of the 11 Mavs I'd not be comfortable dismissing them.

Literally check what i replied to. "they would not have taken shots in 2011", iow let's make the raptors a worse team than they were.

Iow, "artificially making things worse". I directly took issue with a --point you made-- and i criticized the underlying approach(One you have explicitly and aggressively advocated for) behind it. Why was the response "you don't respect me".

And yes time machines aren't real and are stupid. I stand by that. I don't tell posters who use them that they are stupid. But I'm willing to tell them that approach is flawed imo.

You do so with dramatically more aggression than what I offered here with a post that is substantively identical. Notice how I didn't respond with "look you dont respect me but why quote me"?
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#35 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:28 pm

OhayoKD wrote:Literally check what i replied to. "they would not have taken shots in 2011", iow let's make the raptors a worse team than they were.


I wasn't trying to make the Raptors worse lol. I was just pointing out 3-pt volume increased across the league over that 8 year span. That's simply a historical fact. And since I am anti-time machine if that Raptors team was moved to 2011 I'd have them be moved there in a reasonable fashion where they aren't 8 years strategically ahead of the rest of the league. Just as I pointed out Dallas wouldn't be 8 years behind. And we know Rick Carlisle's approach in 2019 because he was still coaching in the league.

You just have issues with me from other posts and so jumped in adding nothing to the discussion but a personal critique of me. So yeah I took issue with that. :D
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#36 » by Wallace_Wallace » Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:41 pm

IIRC, 2011 Mavs' main contributors were:
Dirk Nowitzki, Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Deshawn Stevenson, JJ Barea, Peja Stojakovic (Butler was hurt)

2019 Raptors:
Kawhi Leonard, Pascal Siakam, Kyle Lowry, Serge Ibaka, Marc Gasol, FVV, Danny Green, Norman Powell.

Dirk defenders should be Siakam (primary), Ibaka (secondary) & Leonard (emergency). The matchup between Nowitzki and Siakam is interesting, Nowitzki may struggle at first, but I do believe he will figure out as the game go along. Siakam was fearless that postseason; he drove the ball right at Draymond Green, who turned back the clock a little after KD's calf injury, and was successful at doing so. Tyson Chandler would deter some of the dribble drives, which unfortunately could lead to second chance opportunities if the Mavs do not gang rebound.

OTOH, Shawn Marion might be the only defender who is matching up with Leonard. The Mavericks' zone was a key to success against the Heat, however, Lowry, FVV, Green as well as Leonard himself are capable shooters who could cause issues with the zone defense.

Raptors should win due to their athleticism at each position (besides Gasol), but the Mavs should squeeze out some victories due to clutch execution. I would say Raptors in 7?
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#37 » by One_and_Done » Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:50 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:^ now that’s some special level hating rating


You're gonna just hang that out there without support?


The Kawhi part in the last paragraph about being a selfish guy always looking for a way out is nasty, it basically is only talking about San Antonio since obviously he did the job in Toronto and San Antonio were 100% at fault lol (I get the “oh it’s San Antonio!” And Tbf I have some insider knowledge of how it went down but yeah if 100% makes sense why kawhi left)

“He’s selfish and his teammates know this as well he’s always looking for a way out”

It read like some hater psychologist BS, so I don’t really think it justifies any sort of response other than saying it is what it is

You lost me at San Antonio being at fault for Kawhi leaving. I had Toronto taking this easily, but thar is purest tripe and whatever inside knowledge you think you have is clearly an agenda.

The story from Kawhi's camp was all over the place. It changed constantly, but the original claim was the Spurs misdiagnosed him. We can now see the Spurs diagnosis of a degenerative condition he'd just have to load manage moving forward was 100% correct. Kawhi meanwhile went to 7 doctors until he could find one who told him what he wanted to hear; that he'd be fine if he just sat out. How did that work out? Was he fine? Of course not. The Raptors and Clippers load managed him since then, and he's had increasingly more injuries... just like the Spurs told him. Which always made sense, because the Spurs have a great rep and seem unlikely to screw a diagnosis up.

Later other purported reasons were floated in the media, each more silly than the last (e.g. Kawhi is mad they didn't pay Jon Simmons, the team will lose alot of talent if he goes!). One rumour that came out of the SA media, which I did give credence to, was they refused to give his uncle GM powers; and lo and behold it came out when he left Toronto that his uncle had made all sorts of similar crazy demands.

He went to Toronto, who gave him everything he wanted, won a title, and still left.

Kawhi decided he wanted to play in LA for lifestyle reasons. Period. There was nothing the Spurs could have done to be LA, so how can that be their fault? They won 67 and 61 games the last 2 seasons he actually played there, and were looking competetive against the GOAT team Warriors until Kawhi was hurt. Kawhi lost money not signing the super max in SA, he then lost money again leaving Toronto. He didn't care, because he was set on LA.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#38 » by OhayoKD » Fri Sep 29, 2023 8:56 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:Literally check what i replied to. "they would not have taken shots in 2011", iow let's make the raptors a worse team than they were.


I wasn't trying to make the Raptors worse lol. I was just pointing out 3-pt volume increased across the league over that 8 year span. That's simply a historical fact. And since I am anti-time machine if that Raptors team was moved to 2011 I'd have them be moved there in a reasonable fashion where they aren't 8 years strategically ahead of the rest of the league.

In other words you want to artificially make one team better and one team worse. You take issue with time-machines because that artifical process is skipped. I criticized it and you decided to derail.

By comparison:
Spoiler:
Texas Chuck wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:
Time machines don't exist. So if you are going to have a player from the 60's playing in the 20's then you have to have them born 60 years later.

Sentence one does not logically lead to sentence two. Some people just like comparing players as they are. It requires some projection, but it is a more direct comparison. You can also make it not modernist by doing projections across time as opposed to a period but if people want to fine-tune it for the most talented iteration of the league, that's completely fair.

I'm not understanding why "put them through birth again and presume where that leads" would be neccesary for a time-machine comp or how that actually ahcives anything when whatever you assume is basically just a fan-fiction. Maybe just respect other people's appraoches? "Relative to era" is not inherently more legitimate, nor is it more "fair". And it is an indirect comparison because you are adding a middle-man in terms of "era".

Everything is a result of context, you picking and choosing where individuals deserve credit is completely arbitrary. To the credit of time-machine comparers, they are actually discarding the man-made distinction between "what i did" and "what circumstance allowed me to do" and just comparing things as they are


All that sounds great and all. Except every single time machine poster really is just modern players are better, older players suck. Because they ignore all the context that allows for the modern player to succeed in ways the older player could never.

I mean there was no advantage to shooting with range. There wasn't the ability to have private jets and 10 deep coaching staffs with that many skills coaches and team psychologists and paychecks that allow you to hire private chefs and trainers and take wine baths in hyperbaric chambers and and and.

They don't get to have learned what Bill Russell innovated and David Robinson built upon. They don't have the offensive schemes that have been developed over time. The guards don't get to carry on literally every dribble. They do have to deal with racism much worse than what still sadly exists today.

You simply can't compare apples to apples and think you are doing anything. I agree that having them born 60 years later or earlier is equally fan fiction. For instance many of the biracial players can never actually even exist in that scenario. And many of the best athletes probably choose baseball instead. It's all conjecture and thus of limited value.

But time machine is the lowest of the low. Because its all with an enormous built in bias on top of the already enormous built-in bias that exists with the majority of posters. And its just utterly illogical because there is no fan fiction that even makes that possible.

So yeah I'm always going to speak out against it because its conjecture built on the worst possible premise. Nothing good comes from it.

Here is you doing the same thing substnatively(with the opposite position) except it's far more aggressive/combative and it doesn't actually address anything i originally said(ia longer version of what you deemed a personal attack here).

"criticize time-machines" -> going hard at points
"criticize era adjustment" -> combative and personal

:-?
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#39 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:12 pm

I stand behind that "gotcha" post, but okay.
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Re: 2011 Mavericks vs 2019 Raptors 

Post#40 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Sep 29, 2023 9:34 pm

Djoker wrote:Who wins the series between them?


In general these questions are a bit like guns vs knives to me.

Old teams playing against more recent teams are bringing knives to a gun fight, and will quickly (pace) get shot from range (space).

Obviously if you're talking about an elite team from the past against a bad team from the present that changes things, but old teams are at a massive strategic disadvantage.
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