Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 8

[Frichuela]

Adding some comedy here..

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[gambitx777]

I heard bontemps say that he thinks gs could trade cp3 and stuff for holiday and I would laugh my ass off !

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[Hibachi_0]

I heard bontemps say that he thinks gs could trade cp3 and stuff for holiday and I would laugh my ass off !

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I think something like CP + Kuminga + a pick, and then sending CP elsewhere could work.

[gambitx777]

I heard bontemps say that he thinks gs could trade cp3 and stuff for holiday and I would laugh my ass off !

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I think something like CP + Kuminga + a pick, and then sending CP elsewhere could work.

I think it be smart they get a young guy and put cks and then can maybe flip CP3 somewhere for something. And just keep the shell game going.

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[gambitx777]

Something that I thought was neat. Bobby marks mentioned a loop hole in the new second apron rules. So one rule is seconds apron teams can't sign buy out players that made over mid level or something like that and they don't have exceptions available to do so. But if a player if bought out before the season starts they count as a FA and that rule doesn't apply.

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[9 and 20]

I think this is a bad deal for Milwaukee.

Denver won with one megastar and many supporters. The year before Milwaukee had strong supporters around Giannis.

A key to the Bucks was Jrue Holiday. He's better for them as a role player than Damien Lillard is as a star


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I really hope this works out for the Bucks. Giannis and Dame are super likable and great players. Also I think it's cool that a team in Wisconsin can compete with LA, Miami, etc., on star power.

[nate33]

I think this is a bad deal for Milwaukee.

Denver won with one megastar and many supporters. The year before Milwaukee had strong supporters around Giannis.

A key to the Bucks was Jrue Holiday. He's better for them as a role player than Damien Lillard is as a star


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I really hope this works out for the Bucks. Giannis and Dame are super likable and great players. Also I think it's cool that a team in Wisconsin can compete with LA, Miami, etc., on star power.

Yeah, I'll be rooting for them. Giannis and Dame are both very likeable players.

[wewillnevertank]

I think it's cool that a team in Wisconsin can compete with LA, Miami, etc., on star power.

The league is as deeply entrenched in parity as it's ever been. Major media markets haven't been inherently at an advantage for awhile. If you hit in the draft, the sky is the limit.

[gambitx777]

I think it's cool that a team in Wisconsin can compete with LA, Miami, etc., on star power.

The league is as deeply entrenched in parity as it's ever been. Major media markets haven't been inherently at an advantage for awhile. If you hit in the draft, the sky is the limit.

Good love for Boston but I felt that they didn't need to make that move. They don't have the money to keep this team together long. Now where do they flip brogdon too?

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[payitforward]

They sent R. Williams & Brogdon to Portland.

[gambitx777]

They sent R. Williams & Brogdon to Portland.

That's what I meant where does Portland flip brogdon too!

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[payitforward]

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[doclinkin]

I think it's cool that a team in Wisconsin can compete with LA, Miami, etc., on star power.

The league is as deeply entrenched in parity as it's ever been. Major media markets haven't been inherently at an advantage for awhile. If you hit in the draft, the sky is the limit.

Except that players have more power than ever to leverage their way out of a situation they don't like, and pick a team of their choice. You can say Jokic, Stef, and Giannis count as 'hit it in the draft' type players who stuck with their team, but the Durant Warriors, the South Beach Heatles, the Bubble Lakers and the Kawhi Raptors were all teams that won with stars they didn't draft. And Kawhi underscores the issue since he determined he wouldn't play anywhere but LA, so Toronto lost him. Likewise Durant went to the New York Market, LeBJ ended up in LA, didn't stay in Cleveland even after his stopover to win a hometown championship.

I think it is less about Market (otherwise the Knicks would win every year, the Wiz would be the 10th best team year after year) but more about organization. Still, market has an influence. Both media market and lifestyle. Dame was trying to join Miami, not Milwaukee. Even at the height of their dynasty, no players were forcing trades to San Antonio. Memphis has had a top winning percentage in the West and we don't see players clamoring to join the smallest market in the league.

Like, If it weren't for tech industry dollars there is no way Golden State could sell out an arena with the highest ticket prices in the league. The W's would not have been able to pay the lux tax they have carried to keep their squad together.

The Wiz always seem like a sleeping giant. This team ought to be better able to sell the opportunities of this market, but so far no. If we do hit it in the draft, the hope is we will have built enough of an organization around that player that they will attract players to join up here, rather than that guy looking around for a brighter spotlight elsewhere.

[Nigel Tufnel]

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I’m very jealous of the haul that Portland got for Dame. Must be nice not to have a general manager STUPID enough to give their star a no-trade clause.

[Kanyewest]

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I’m very jealous of the haul that Portland got for Dame. Must be nice not to have a general manager STUPID enough to give their star a no-trade clause.

Although the Suns also gave up Nurkic and Nassir Little - which seemed to net them Ayton.


This is what I believe the Wizards have gotten from the Beal trade in which they also gave up Jordan Goodwin.

Six second-round draft picks
4 first-round pick swaps from the Suns which are in 2024, 2026, 2028 and 2030
Patrick Baldwin Jr.
Jordan Poole
Ryan Rollins
2027 second-round pick from the Warriors
2030 first-round pick (top 20 protected) from the Warriors
Cash considerations (both from the Suns and Warriors)

Assuming Beal would have given up his trade clause to re-sign, it would have been better, but perhaps that is what it took for him to re-sign. I wonder if the Wizards gave Beal a wink-wink deal to re-sign in 2021 when Westrbook demanded his trade- otherwise, I doubt if Beal would have really walked away from such a massive contract.

[nate33]

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I’m very jealous of the haul that Portland got for Dame. Must be nice not to have a general manager STUPID enough to give their star a no-trade clause.

I'm impressed with Portland's patience in not kowtowing to Lillard's demand to go to the Heat. They never panicked and ultimately made a pretty good deal for themselves. We will see if they can flip Brogdon for another pick.

[payitforward]

Quite a difference between what Portland got for Dame & what we got for Brad, that's for sure!

[nate33]

Quite a difference between what Portland got for Dame & what we got for Brad, that's for sure!

To be fair, Lillard is MUCH better than Beal.

Lillard is seen as a key piece on a Final's contender. You can probably win a title with Lillard as your 2nd best player, and you can make a conference finals with Lillard as your best player.

Beal is on another tier. As the best player on his team, he doesn't even get you to the playoffs. He can probably be the 3rd best player on a contending team.

[Kanyewest]

Quite a difference between what Portland got for Dame & what we got for Brad, that's for sure!

To be fair, Lillard is MUCH better than Beal.

Lillard is seen as a key piece on a Final's contender. You can probably win a title with Lillard as your 2nd best player, and you can make a conference finals with Lillard as your best player.

Beal is on another tier. As the best player on his team, he doesn't even get you to the playoffs. He can probably be the 3rd best player on a contending team.

Lillard has been better than Beal - just not sure how strong that conference finals appearance really was. They ended up beating an OKC team where Paul George/Anthony fell apart, Westbrook did Westbrook things. Also don't think the Denver team was quite ready for primetime either, the Spurs took that Nuggets team to 7 games. Lillard did just enough in game 7 where he had 10 rebounds and 8 assists in 45 minutes but only had 13 points with 3 of 17 shooting- CJ McCollum actually had 37 points.

Then the Blazers ended up playing a Warriors team without Durant that couldn't take a single game off of them, the Warriors didn't manage to close out either the Rockets or Clippers in fewer than 6 games.

Since the KD Warriors the 2nd best players on championship team

2019 - Kyle Lowry
2020- Anthony Davis
2021 - Khris Middleton
2022- Andrew WIggins
2023 - Jamal Murray

Basically the 2nd option doesn't always have even be at a Lillard level- your star player has to be playing at a Kawhi, LeBron, Giannis, Curry, or Jokic level though.

[doclinkin]

Relevant to the small market big market conversation.

Interesting conversation on the CBA and lux tax/apron.

The teams who don't participate in the arms race are going to cash in mightily over the few couple years from lux tax disbursements.

David Aldridge:
I was concerned after the Warriors got Kevin Durant in 2016, because so many teams’ decision-makers seemed so resigned to Golden State dominating that they didn’t seem very enthusiastic about challenging them. Only Morey and the Rockets dug in and gave it a shot. And, if you go back and look at that Houston-Dubs West finals in 2018, sometimes you’re amazed that the Rockets didn’t win it. Houston missed 27 straight 3-pointers in Game 7 and still could have pulled it out.

This summer is the antithesis of that 2016 offseason. First, the Suns quickly agreed to take on the remaining three years of guaranteed money — $150.6 million — of Beal’s contract, along with the likely $57.1 million Beal will get in his option year of 2026-27. That was on top of the outlay for the last three years ($153.5 million) of KD’s extension, along with another $6 million in incentives, and the $222.6 million extension for Devin Booker that kicks in after this upcoming season. Yes, Phoenix gets some relief down the road from trading Deandre Ayton to Portland for Jusuf Nurkić, but Mat Ishbia’s going to be paying more tax than Enron (whoops, too soon?) for a good long while.

Then, Milwaukee went all-in on Lillard, knowing that if the deal achieves its primary goal of getting Antetokounmpo to sign a rest-of-my-prime extension next summer, the tax implications in three years, when Lillard is making $63 million(!!), are staggering. Now, there’s Boston, which just gave Jaylen Brown a $300 million extension this summer, will have to give even more to Jayson Tatum within the next couple of years, gave Kristaps Porziņģis a two-year, $60 million extension and will now be on the clock to give Holiday a new deal next year.

NBA business reporter Mike Vorkunov:
It’s so true. If there was any concern the new CBA and its avatar of destruction, the second apron, were going to lead to some mass de-escalation, this offseason has shown just the opposite. NBA contenders are leaning into the risk. It’s really a beautiful thing to see.

Whatever concerns management might have about paying increasing luxury-tax multipliers or frozen picks kind of get muted when Antetokounmpo lays down the gauntlet as he did. Then that has a tack-on effect of pushing other teams in the East further in. I’m sure the Bucks didn’t like to see Holiday head right back to a team it might meet in the Eastern Conference finals next spring, but the Celtics surely had to feel some pressure to make another move to keep up. As all-in as they were before, it gets diluted if it no longer makes you as competitive against your best competition.

John Hollinger:
I think part of the reason, ironically, is the new CBA. If you’re a tax team and you want to make an all-in trade, you had do it right now — before future picks get put in jail, starting in 2025, and before the rules against aggregating multiple salaries come into play next summer. Additionally, the trade rules almost incentivize these teams to have at least one whale salary, because you can aggregate down but not up. In other words, trading Lillard’s monstrous salary in two years for two smaller ones is still possible if you’re the Bucks, but the same trade won’t be allowed in the opposite direction.

That said, I think DA hit on the bigger underlying reason that so many teams are pushing chips in right now: the perception that it’s wide open, and thus that a “one piece away” type move is even possible. When the KD-era Warriors were roaming the Earth, that was a much more difficult proposition for a front office to talk itself (and ownership) into.

Finally, kudos to these teams —Milwaukee, Phoenix and Boston — that have been willing to spend themselves deep into the tax to go for it. Assuming Holiday extends his contract with the Celtics, all three are going to be very pricey rosters two or three years down the line, and the tax penalties under this new CBA are even harsher. These aren’t New York/L.A. situations when they can offset the tax because their home arena prints money; they’re knowingly taking a hit in the hope that a flag flies forever.