Miami Heat 2023/2024 Training Camp and Regular Season Thread

[shanedude]

IDK why Heat org doesn't seem enthusiastic about Harden. Lowry, Caleb a 1st and a swap should get it done, no? Unless Morey just doesn't want to play ball with an in-conference rival and Riley. There's a chance to really raise the talent ceiling in Miami and not have it boil down to a one man Jimmy Butler show deep in the playoffs again.

Harden JRich
Herro Duncan
Jimmy JJJ
Jovic Love/Highsmith
Bam Bryant/Orlando

Can absolutely win a title. There's a chance both Herro and Harden (resigned to a short term, team friendly-ish deal) become valuable assets again, who can again be flipped for a real difference maker.

[MiamiLoyal926]

Harden has never done anything of value in the playoffs and has not been a difference maker when it comes to impacting team success on his last 2 stops(Nets and Sixers) despite having good teams around him. Just keep that in mind as we get excited about making a move like this.

[IceColdCubano]

IDK why Heat org doesn't seem enthusiastic about Harden. Lowry, Caleb a 1st and a swap should get it done, no? Unless Morey just doesn't want to play ball with an in-conference rival and Riley. There's a chance to really raise the talent ceiling in Miami and not have it boil down to a one man Jimmy Butler show deep in the playoffs again.

Harden JRich
Herro Duncan
Jimmy JJJ
Jovic Love/Highsmith
Bam Bryant/Orlando

Can absolutely win a title. There's a chance both Herro and Harden (resigned to a short term, team friendly-ish deal) become valuable assets again, who can again be flipped for a real difference maker.

Every team that Harden has been traded to didn't do anything in the playoffs, and all those wow/ooh dribbles and step backs only look cool during the regular season, but don't seem to do much else during the playoffs.

He is the Guard version of Hassan Whiteside, stat filler that means nothing and has no impact on winning.

[Daffy]

How many of you think Lowry didn’t mesh and work here because of conditioning issues? In other words, he did not like nor truly buy into the level of pressure and importance placed on meeting certain conditioning criteria. As a result, did he also fall out of favor with his teammates who do eat, sleep, sweat Heat culture?

If that was an issue for both Lowry and his teammates, how will someone like Harden mesh in this environment given the same criteria?

I'm noticing you find a negative in every possible situation for a trade.

Do you have an issue with a discussion-based question? You didn’t answer the question. Do you feel Lowry fell victim to Heat Culture, and will other players like Harden mesh or not given that same type of pressure from coaching and teammates?

I did not give my opinion whatsoever… I just asked a question regarding what we saw from Lowry and murmurs that he and Butler did not mesh as well as they thought they would. Do you guys think that was a lack of culture fit for Lowry? If so, should we be concerned the same fate would await other similar type of players. Harden just happens to be todays discussion, but my question was more centered on Lowry and the possible negative surrounding Heat Culture and it’s potential to turn certain stars off from us.

I have noticed a pattern of dismissiveness and retaliation from you Daffy towards me. It’s a shame really. Seems like logic-based discussion is frowned upon. I am not the fan boy type, my bad if that offended you. I will always approach all discussion using logic, evidence/data, and rationale. It is both the blessing and the curse of someone who studied both mathematics and data science. Feel free to add me to your foe list.

P.S. I never said I was against Harden. I think he would be a fresh dynamic this team has lacked.

It's not that serious for me to add you to the foe list. Never added anyone to it and never will. I have nothing against you at all. I just feel like every name we bring up you look for the negative outlook or impact of said move. In life most situations will undoubtedly have some kind of negative trade off if you dig and look for it. Once again it's not like I dislike you or anything like that.

I think Lowry's biggest issue here is that his mind wanted to do and be one thing while his body wouldn't or couldn't do any longer. I do think Lowry wanted to buy in and be in perfect shape etc but honestly some people's body just happen to break down differently when they reach a certain age. At this point I don't know whether Lowry became frustrated with himself or the organization because he couldn't perform to the level he wanted to or used to be able to.

Even at this state Harden still performs better than Lowry, but he could also decline just as fast which is currently happening to be honest. End of the day we're just looking for a current improvement on what we have to attempt to keep pace with the other top teams in the league. Harden does bring some of the things we were looking for in Dame such as the passing and 3pt shooting while also allowing us to keep Herro. I know Harden has never been THAT GUY to lead you to a ring but in this situation he won't have to. He'd basically he our 3rd or 4th option but an excellent facilitator for our offense which should really help elevate our overall offense.

[shanedude]

IDK why Heat org doesn't seem enthusiastic about Harden. Lowry, Caleb a 1st and a swap should get it done, no? Unless Morey just doesn't want to play ball with an in-conference rival and Riley. There's a chance to really raise the talent ceiling in Miami and not have it boil down to a one man Jimmy Butler show deep in the playoffs again.

Harden JRich
Herro Duncan
Jimmy JJJ
Jovic Love/Highsmith
Bam Bryant/Orlando

Can absolutely win a title. There's a chance both Herro and Harden (resigned to a short term, team friendly-ish deal) become valuable assets again, who can again be flipped for a real difference maker.

Every team that Harden has been traded to didn't do anything in the playoffs, and all those wow/ooh dribbles and step backs only look cool during the regular season, but don't seem to do much else during the playoffs.

He is the Guard version of Hassan Whiteside, stat filler that means nothing and has no impact on winning.

Yes, because Hassan Whiteside is a top 75 all time, MVP, 7 time all NBA caliber player No one is asking him to be our best player, He can be 3rd behind Jimmy and Bam.

[fishfuego.]

Harden has never done anything of value in the playoffs and has not been a difference maker when it comes to impacting team success on his last 2 stops(Nets and Sixers) despite having good teams around him. Just keep that in mind as we get excited about making a move like this.

I wouldn’t trade anything other than Lowry for Harden.
Let the youngins get actual game form and experience, while keeping the core and play for the near future, possibly something at the trade deadline.
A team can’t make it to the finals every single year, and the Bucks have a small window, so it’s not like they are this Warriors type of long term dynasty. Boston is the team to future plan against due to the amount of young talent in the East, while Denver in the entire league lol.

So let the Heat be competitive while developing, and play Jimmy less to conserve wear and tear.

I would personally support this mini rebuild without losing the competitive spirit.

[Daffy]

Harden has never done anything of value in the playoffs and has not been a difference maker when it comes to impacting team success on his last 2 stops(Nets and Sixers) despite having good teams around him. Just keep that in mind as we get excited about making a move like this.

I wouldn’t trade anything other than Lowry for Harden.
Let the youngins get actual game form and experience, while keeping the core and play for the near future, possibly something at the trade deadline.
A team can’t make it to the finals every single year, and the Bucks have a small window, so it’s not like they are this Warriors type of long term dynasty. Boston is the team to future plan against due to the amount of young talent in the East, while Denver in the entire league lol.

So let the Heat be competitive while developing, and play Jimmy less to conserve wear and tear.

I would personally support this mini rebuild without losing the competitive spirit.

To be fair I'm not even sure how long Boston will be able to have this team for. If I remember correctly they're over the 2nd apron so that team probably has a window of 2 years to win a ring. Also Horford is old and finding a replacement that does what he does won't be easy.

[VaDe255]

I don't know why so many keep pushing this Harden deal.
- There is no good way to match salaries
- 76ers do not want to improve their rivals
- He isn't a cultural fit and could screw up the mood in the locker room

There are far more realistic options. I named one (get Tyus + expirings for Lowry + 24 pick), which has none of these problems and at this point in their careers has about the same impact.

They also have no pressure to do anything and can just wait.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Y’all are confused as hell about Harden lol dude is and has been way better than you all are saying.

[IceColdCubano]

IDK why Heat org doesn't seem enthusiastic about Harden. Lowry, Caleb a 1st and a swap should get it done, no? Unless Morey just doesn't want to play ball with an in-conference rival and Riley. There's a chance to really raise the talent ceiling in Miami and not have it boil down to a one man Jimmy Butler show deep in the playoffs again.

Harden JRich
Herro Duncan
Jimmy JJJ
Jovic Love/Highsmith
Bam Bryant/Orlando

Can absolutely win a title. There's a chance both Herro and Harden (resigned to a short term, team friendly-ish deal) become valuable assets again, who can again be flipped for a real difference maker.

Every team that Harden has been traded to didn't do anything in the playoffs, and all those wow/ooh dribbles and step backs only look cool during the regular season, but don't seem to do much else during the playoffs.

He is the Guard version of Hassan Whiteside, stat filler that means nothing and has no impact on winning.

Yes, because Hassan Whiteside is a top 75 all time, MVP, 7 time all NBA caliber player No one is asking him to be our best player, He can be 3rd behind Jimmy and Bam.

My comment was in reference to his production vs his impact, obviously Harden has done the stats stuffing to a greater degree. As a guard he also way better scorer than most which is why he holds an MVP. outside of that you can't say he is conductive to winning.

However my take here is not about not wanting Harden on the team, I think if hes your 3rd/4th best player he will do just fine. If we can find ways to hide, Lowry's, Herro's, & Duncan's terrible perimeter defense I don't see why we couldn't do it for Harden. My take is that unfortunately the Heat Front office don't hold high regard for Harden or else they would have gone after him in the many times he was out there looking to relocated. I think because of this, they would be unwilling to give much, at least not enough to entice the 76r's to give him up to a rival. Lowry & Duncan do not make 76rs better, therefore its a hard point to push. They would want serviceable players like Caleb Martin, but I don't believe they would give him up.

[fishfuego.]

Harden has never done anything of value in the playoffs and has not been a difference maker when it comes to impacting team success on his last 2 stops(Nets and Sixers) despite having good teams around him. Just keep that in mind as we get excited about making a move like this.

I wouldn’t trade anything other than Lowry for Harden.
Let the youngins get actual game form and experience, while keeping the core and play for the near future, possibly something at the trade deadline.
A team can’t make it to the finals every single year, and the Bucks have a small window, so it’s not like they are this Warriors type of long term dynasty. Boston is the team to future plan against due to the amount of young talent in the East, while Denver in the entire league lol.

So let the Heat be competitive while developing, and play Jimmy less to conserve wear and tear.

I would personally support this mini rebuild without losing the competitive spirit.

To be fair I'm not even sure how long Boston will be able to have this team for. If I remember correctly they're over the 2nd apron so that team probably has a window of 2 years to win a ring. Also Horford is old and finding a replacement that does what he does won't be easy.

Yup you’re right.
As I was posting I remembered that Boston will not be the same long term.

But I’m curious to see what the young players can deliver, if their value increases, and what opportunities arrive in the future.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

[fishfuego.]

Y’all are confused as hell about Harden lol dude is and has been way better than you all are saying.

Well you said it “ has been”.

[DayofMourning]

Been on the Harden bandwagon since day 1. Me and Bish.

I've gotten over the Lilard fiasco,

I've endured the Holiday tragedy,

But this Harden thing might break me DOM

Yeah buddy.

Will probably start watching pickle ball myself.

Only so much a person can endure.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Y’all are confused as hell about Harden lol dude is and has been way better than you all are saying.

Well you said it “ has been”.

And “is”

[MiamiLoyal926]

I'm noticing you find a negative in every possible situation for a trade.

Do you have an issue with a discussion-based question? You didn’t answer the question. Do you feel Lowry fell victim to Heat Culture, and will other players like Harden mesh or not given that same type of pressure from coaching and teammates?

I did not give my opinion whatsoever… I just asked a question regarding what we saw from Lowry and murmurs that he and Butler did not mesh as well as they thought they would. Do you guys think that was a lack of culture fit for Lowry? If so, should we be concerned the same fate would await other similar type of players. Harden just happens to be todays discussion, but my question was more centered on Lowry and the possible negative surrounding Heat Culture and it’s potential to turn certain stars off from us.

I have noticed a pattern of dismissiveness and retaliation from you Daffy towards me. It’s a shame really. Seems like logic-based discussion is frowned upon. I am not the fan boy type, my bad if that offended you. I will always approach all discussion using logic, evidence/data, and rationale. It is both the blessing and the curse of someone who studied both mathematics and data science. Feel free to add me to your foe list.

P.S. I never said I was against Harden. I think he would be a fresh dynamic this team has lacked.

It's not that serious for me to add you to the foe list. Never added anyone to it and never will. I have nothing against you at all. I just feel like every name we bring up you look for the negative outlook or impact of said move. In life most situations will undoubtedly have some kind of negative trade off if you dig and look for it. Once again it's not like I dislike you or anything like that.

I think Lowry's biggest issue here is that his mind wanted to do and be one thing while his body wouldn't or couldn't do any longer. I do think Lowry wanted to buy in and be in perfect shape etc but honestly some people's body just happen to break down differently when they reach a certain age. At this point I don't know whether Lowry became frustrated with himself or the organization because he couldn't perform to the level he wanted to or used to be able to.

Even at this state Harden still performs better than Lowry, but he could also decline just as fast which is currently happening to be honest. End of the day we're just looking for a current improvement on what we have to attempt to keep pace with the other top teams in the league. Harden does bring some of the things we were looking for in Dame such as the passing and 3pt shooting while also allowing us to keep Herro. I know Harden has never been THAT GUY to lead you to a ring but in this situation he won't have to. He'd basically he our 3rd or 4th option but an excellent facilitator for our offense which should really help elevate our overall offense.

I would say that when truly analyzing a situation, it is important to put on a scale both the good and the bad that comes with said situation to find that balance and thus identify the true center of what said player should be worth to us and what we should be offering for them.

Harden fills some definite needs and does those things well. He also does have weaknesses and also does some things that are anti-Heat. Other things to consider is that he is currently an expiring contract, which is both good and bad depending how much you invest for him in assets and what we plan on doing with him down the road. What will he expect from us to consider extending? Will he want to just walk this summer? Will he continue to pout like he has on his last 3 teams? How much is all that smoke worth to us? Does he fit with how Spo wants to use our current team? Will Harden fit well next to Herro or get in the way of building Herro’s game and reputation? Could he help Herro grow by teaching him a thing or two or will he taint the waters and be a bad influence for someone like Herro?

I may come off negative, but all I do is try to see both sides of the coin. I will admit that the super fan boys sometimes have me having to lean in on the flip side of their narratives to help create a balanced view in here, which is why my contributions also take the opposite, or as you put it, “negative” side. My goal is for us to always find and settle on the true center of what makes sense.

[IceColdCubano]

Do you have an issue with a discussion-based question? You didn’t answer the question. Do you feel Lowry fell victim to Heat Culture, and will other players like Harden mesh or not given that same type of pressure from coaching and teammates?

I did not give my opinion whatsoever… I just asked a question regarding what we saw from Lowry and murmurs that he and Butler did not mesh as well as they thought they would. Do you guys think that was a lack of culture fit for Lowry? If so, should we be concerned the same fate would await other similar type of players. Harden just happens to be todays discussion, but my question was more centered on Lowry and the possible negative surrounding Heat Culture and it’s potential to turn certain stars off from us.

I have noticed a pattern of dismissiveness and retaliation from you Daffy towards me. It’s a shame really. Seems like logic-based discussion is frowned upon. I am not the fan boy type, my bad if that offended you. I will always approach all discussion using logic, evidence/data, and rationale. It is both the blessing and the curse of someone who studied both mathematics and data science. Feel free to add me to your foe list.

P.S. I never said I was against Harden. I think he would be a fresh dynamic this team has lacked.

It's not that serious for me to add you to the foe list. Never added anyone to it and never will. I have nothing against you at all. I just feel like every name we bring up you look for the negative outlook or impact of said move. In life most situations will undoubtedly have some kind of negative trade off if you dig and look for it. Once again it's not like I dislike you or anything like that.

I think Lowry's biggest issue here is that his mind wanted to do and be one thing while his body wouldn't or couldn't do any longer. I do think Lowry wanted to buy in and be in perfect shape etc but honestly some people's body just happen to break down differently when they reach a certain age. At this point I don't know whether Lowry became frustrated with himself or the organization because he couldn't perform to the level he wanted to or used to be able to.

Even at this state Harden still performs better than Lowry, but he could also decline just as fast which is currently happening to be honest. End of the day we're just looking for a current improvement on what we have to attempt to keep pace with the other top teams in the league. Harden does bring some of the things we were looking for in Dame such as the passing and 3pt shooting while also allowing us to keep Herro. I know Harden has never been THAT GUY to lead you to a ring but in this situation he won't have to. He'd basically he our 3rd or 4th option but an excellent facilitator for our offense which should really help elevate our overall offense.

I would say that when truly analyzing a situation, it is important to put on a scale both the good and the bad that comes with said situation to find that balance and thus identify the true center of what said player should be worth to us and what we should be offering for them.

Harden fills some definite needs and does those things well. He also does have weaknesses and also does some things that are anti-Heat. Other things to consider is that he is currently an expiring contract, which is both good and bad depending how much you invest for him in assets and what we plan on doing with him down the road. What will he expect from us to consider extending? Will he want to just walk this summer? Will he continue to pout like he has on his last 3 teams? How much is all that smoke worth to us? Does he fit with how Spo wants to use our current team? Will Harden fit well next to Herro or get in the way of building Herro’s game and reputation? Could he help Herro grow by teaching him a thing or two or will he taint the waters and be a bad influence for someone like Herro?

I may come off negative, but all I do is try to see both sides of the coin. I will admit that the super fan boys sometimes have me having to lean in on the flip side of their narratives to help create a balanced view in here, which is why my contributions also take the opposite, or as you put it, “negative” side. My goal is for us to always find and settle on the true center of what makes sense.

I find myself doing the same thing man, way too many half glass full people here the moment a name is being talked about that could potentially come our way. I find myself always arguing the other side of the coin.

[3ammy3uck3ts]

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[3ammy3uck3ts]

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[RexBoyWonder]

I don't see the point in selling future assets (draft picks or young players) for short term rentals of old guys unless they really give you a great chance to compete.

Harden doesn't give a great chance to compete, and he's about to drop off a cliff if he hasn't already.

Rather save the assets and roll the dice on Mitchell in a year. (he'll get traded once he doesn't extend, he's an expiring after next year)