how many nba teams in history have better #4 players than the current celtics team?

[MyUniBroDavis]

In the context of #4s if you think Brown is their number 4 he clears all other ones talent wise, but his fit with Tatum isn’t the best and the “your turn my turn” stuff which probably explains his lower impact doesnt make sense when both of them choke randomly instead lmao

Lot's of players were talented [J.R. Smith was super talented, but it wasn't until he toned down and bought into a more limited role did he have success with Cleveland. The same for Wiggins, a player who is more talented than Brown and won as a 2/3/4 with GSW.

The Your Turn, My Turn strategy is just as much Brown's fault as Tatum's.

Being a decent wings defender with neutral impact is absolutely a positive, you’d rather than than a guy like Curry or Chris Paul defensively who are solid impact guys on that end but aren’t better defenders once the playoffs hit

Jaylen isn't a negative defender, of course. It comes down to positive, but for me the only reason it is positive is because of his position--and more importantly because he played with great defensive guards in Smart and White.

Most Wings have a player at the 1 or 2 who are worse defenders than them. However, Jaylen hasn't had that the past year with both White and Smart being significantly better defenders.

So, when you say "I would rather have his defense than CP3 or Curry", I agree with the caveat they aren't the same position. I prefer both Prime CP3 and 2022 Curry defense at their respective positions than Brown on the Wing, for example. The caveat here being Brown taking less primacy of the offense and returning to an All-NBA defender and he instantly vaults up to #2.

Are you comparing wolves Wiggins and denver jr smith to jaylen brown?

Browns lack of impact probably just comes down to Tatum alone being better than Tatum + brown have been, and brown lineups without Tatum not being particularly good. He’s probably a tad overrated in general.

A your turn my turn offense is fine even if it leads to a lower general offensive rtg if it leads to Higher floors or more consistency, it’s just the duo of Tatum and brown end up doing funny BS whenever it’s the worst possible time lmao

He’s generally a 25ppg scorer and 1-2% above league average TS, just had a bad season from three this year so he was only slightly above average effeciency wise, but comparing him to how Wiggins was in minessotta doesnt make sense

The fact that he isn’t a great playmaker and cant dribble a basketball means the entire “browns the best player!” Narrative the media throws around is cap and he probably wouldn’t be all too effective on his own team at least to the extent some people who stan him think he’d be

Going by positions like that makes sense if ur going perimeter vs bigs, not for a point guard vs a shooting guard.

I don’t watch the Celtics enough because **** Boston but realistically the fact that brown and Tatum together hasn’t been as good as Tatum by himself probably comes down to coaching and fit more than anything else

But if ur gonna call him #4 yeah he’s an absurd #4 in terms of his actual ability, the fit and the coaching is gonna decide the impact more than a lack of talent

I don’t think brown with all nba defense and slightly lower volume is better than jrue

[Jaivl]

Nearly every big 80s team (3-4 superteams, then the void) has 5 better players than Porzingis or Brown.
Kukoc is better as well, same with Klay or Iggy.
Fred Brown in late 70s Seattle.

off the top of my head.

[Iwasawitness]

This guy from 08?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Scalabrine#/media/File:Brian_Scalabrine_of_the_Boston_Celtics_at_NBA_Media_Day_2007.png

[Doctor MJ]

The kids don’t know:

Good call on pre-Iso Joe. If the Suns had kept their core together, stayed healthy, and doubled down on pace & space, every reason to think you're looking at a potential dynasty. Back then people were suspect, but knowing what we know now - that "pace & space" isn't a gimmick, it's literally how you have to play if you want to compete in a league that plays this way - those Suns represent possibly the biggest "What might have been..." in history.

[Colbinii]

In the context of #4s if you think Brown is their number 4 he clears all other ones talent wise, but his fit with Tatum isn’t the best and the “your turn my turn” stuff which probably explains his lower impact doesnt make sense when both of them choke randomly instead lmao

Lot's of players were talented [J.R. Smith was super talented, but it wasn't until he toned down and bought into a more limited role did he have success with Cleveland. The same for Wiggins, a player who is more talented than Brown and won as a 2/3/4 with GSW.

The Your Turn, My Turn strategy is just as much Brown's fault as Tatum's.

Being a decent wings defender with neutral impact is absolutely a positive, you’d rather than than a guy like Curry or Chris Paul defensively who are solid impact guys on that end but aren’t better defenders once the playoffs hit

Jaylen isn't a negative defender, of course. It comes down to positive, but for me the only reason it is positive is because of his position--and more importantly because he played with great defensive guards in Smart and White.

Most Wings have a player at the 1 or 2 who are worse defenders than them. However, Jaylen hasn't had that the past year with both White and Smart being significantly better defenders.

So, when you say "I would rather have his defense than CP3 or Curry", I agree with the caveat they aren't the same position. I prefer both Prime CP3 and 2022 Curry defense at their respective positions than Brown on the Wing, for example. The caveat here being Brown taking less primacy of the offense and returning to an All-NBA defender and he instantly vaults up to #2.

Are you comparing wolves Wiggins and denver jr smith to jaylen brown?

Was I not clear enough?

I was simply using JR Smith as an example of a player who was talented, had a larger primacy of an offense but ended up winning a title as he gave up primacy and bought into a Team First mentality and expanded more effort defensively.

As for Wiggins, yeah, in a vacuum he is/was more talented than Jaylen Brown. However, his game remained relatively similar from the season he was drafted through present day. But GSW got him to buy-in as a true 3+D archetypical wing and they win a title with him not being an unstoppable force offensively, but being an integral defensive component complimenting Draymond Green.

Browns lack of impact probably just comes down to Tatum alone being better than Tatum + brown have been, and brown lineups without Tatum not being particularly good. He’s probably a tad overrated in general.

So it comes down to the Tatum line-ups and the fact that Brown simply is overrated?
So he isn't as good as a Top 10 player, right?
Is he a Top 20 player? Top 30? Top 50?
Where do we accurately put him?

That's my point. Clearly he isn't a clear-cut All-NBA guy [Top 15], but where do we then peg him?

He’s generally a 25ppg scorer and 1-2% above league average TS, just had a bad season from three this year so he was only slightly above average effeciency wise, but comparing him to how Wiggins was in minessotta doesnt make sense

I agree about comparing him to Wiggins--let's not compare him to Wiggins in Minnesota. I hope nobody is doing that here.

As for "Generally a 25 PPG scorer"...Do you know how many seasons [outside of 2023] where Jaylen Brown averaged 25 PPG? 0.

How is it that a player who has never scored 25 PPG categorized as generally a 25 PPG scorer?

I was hoping you meant post-season, but he has never averaged 25 PPG in the post-season either.

2022: +0.8 TS% on 23.6 PPG
2021: +1.4 TS% on 24.7 PPG
2020: +1.8 TS% on 20.3 PPG

There is another issue with Jaylen Brown's scoring beyond the lack-luster 3P% over the past 2 seasons. He has a pedestrian free throw rate. This is why his scoring isn't impactful or seen through the impact data or +/-. This is why he barely at league average in terms of pure scoring efficiency.

Going by positions like that makes sense if ur going perimeter vs bigs, not for a point guard vs a shooting guard.

Umm...Jaylen Brown is a Wing, yes? There are Point Guards, Wings and Bigs, right?

That's what I am trying to get at here. CP3 and Curry have magnitudes more offensive impact. If Jaylen Brown wants to be a 30%+ USG, scoring wing with middling defense and sub-par playmaking and free-throw generation, his impact is going to suffer immensely compared to if he optimized his shots, lowered his usage and bought into the idea of guarding a teams best wing for 35 Minutes per night.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Lot's of players were talented [J.R. Smith was super talented, but it wasn't until he toned down and bought into a more limited role did he have success with Cleveland. The same for Wiggins, a player who is more talented than Brown and won as a 2/3/4 with GSW.

The Your Turn, My Turn strategy is just as much Brown's fault as Tatum's.



Jaylen isn't a negative defender, of course. It comes down to positive, but for me the only reason it is positive is because of his position--and more importantly because he played with great defensive guards in Smart and White.

Most Wings have a player at the 1 or 2 who are worse defenders than them. However, Jaylen hasn't had that the past year with both White and Smart being significantly better defenders.

So, when you say "I would rather have his defense than CP3 or Curry", I agree with the caveat they aren't the same position. I prefer both Prime CP3 and 2022 Curry defense at their respective positions than Brown on the Wing, for example. The caveat here being Brown taking less primacy of the offense and returning to an All-NBA defender and he instantly vaults up to #2.

Are you comparing wolves Wiggins and denver jr smith to jaylen brown?

Was I not clear enough?

I was simply using JR Smith as an example of a player who was talented, had a larger primacy of an offense but ended up winning a title as he gave up primacy and bought into a Team First mentality and expanded more effort defensively.

As for Wiggins, yeah, in a vacuum he is/was more talented than Jaylen Brown. However, his game remained relatively similar from the season he was drafted through present day. But GSW got him to buy-in as a true 3+D archetypical wing and they win a title with him not being an unstoppable force offensively, but being an integral defensive component complimenting Draymond Green.

Browns lack of impact probably just comes down to Tatum alone being better than Tatum + brown have been, and brown lineups without Tatum not being particularly good. He’s probably a tad overrated in general.

[Top 15], but where do we then peg him?

He’s generally a 25ppg scorer and 1-2% above league average TS, just had a bad season from three this year so he was only slightly above average effeciency wise, but comparing him to how Wiggins was in minessotta doesnt make sense

I agree about comparing him to Wiggins--let's not compare him to Wiggins in Minnesota. I hope nobody is doing that here.

As for "Generally a 25 PPG scorer"...Do you know how many seasons [outside of 2023] where Jaylen Brown averaged 25 PPG? 0.

How is it that a player who has never scored 25 PPG categorized as generally a 25 PPG scorer?

I was hoping you meant post-season, but he has never averaged 25 PPG in the post-season either.

2022: +0.8 TS% on 23.6 PPG
2021: +1.4 TS% on 24.7 PPG
2020: +1.8 TS% on 20.3 PPG

There is another issue with Jaylen Brown's scoring beyond the lack-luster 3P% over the past 2 seasons. He has a pedestrian free throw rate. This is why his scoring isn't impactful or seen through the impact data or +/-. This is why he barely at league average in terms of pure scoring efficiency.

Going by positions like that makes sense if ur going perimeter vs bigs, not for a point guard vs a shooting guard.

Umm...Jaylen Brown is a Wing, yes? There are Point Guards, Wings and Bigs, right?

That's what I am trying to get at here. CP3 and Curry have magnitudes more offensive impact. If Jaylen Brown wants to be a 30%+ USG, scoring wing with middling defense and sub-par playmaking and free-throw generation, his impact is going to suffer immensely compared to if he optimized his shots, lowered his usage and bought into the idea of guarding a teams best wing for 35 Minutes per night.

Was I not clear enough?

I was simply using JR Smith as an example of a player who was talented, had a larger primacy of an offense but ended up winning a title as he gave up primacy and bought into a Team First mentality and expanded more effort defensively.

As for Wiggins, yeah, in a vacuum he is/was more talented than Jaylen Brown. However, his game remained relatively similar from the season he was drafted through present day. But GSW got him to buy-in as a true 3+D archetypical wing and they win a title with him not being an unstoppable force offensively, but being an integral defensive component complimenting Draymond Green.

A few things

1. In the context of a talented player that’s doing too much, why would you mention Wiggins and then say ur not talking about Wiggins in Minnesota?

2. His average ppg over the past 3 years is literally 25.0 lol. Over the past 3 years his marks are 24.7, 23.6, and 26.6. Does it change my statement much more if I say he’s at 24 ppg lmao

3. He’s a shooting guard lol, yes of course Curry and pre Cp3 who I didn’t even mention are better offensively not a single serious human being has ever disputed that, but saying that Curry and cp3 are better for their position is largely meaningless when they’re both perimeter guys and Curry isn’t even someone that can guard quicker players. The idea of being a PG defender is relevant if ur talking about a small guy that can really guard the quicker guards in the league that might be too fast for wings but this isn’t the case, saying brown isn’t playing PG is largely meaningless when what ur saying is more so brown isn’t facilitating the offense therefore you can’t compare him defensive to specific players that do which doesn’t make sense

Again, the only reason his impact data probably isn’t good is because Tatum alone lineups kill it is because Tatum + brown lineups are simply quite good, nothing more than that.

He’s not like a top 10 top 15 guy but if ur genuinely think he’s the 4th best guy on the team that’s an absurd bar, he’s closer to a top 25 guy probably although the top is pretty stacked nowadays

Browns for sure a guy that has the talent that if he’s on his own team and used right he’d be a top 30 player, being all-NBA second team is probably BS

It’s valid that brown goes hero ball too much and has limitations that mean he’s probably not leading his own team effectively but I’m generally blaming coaching more than anything else there.

[Owly]

Are you comparing wolves Wiggins and denver jr smith to jaylen brown?

Was I not clear enough?

I was simply using JR Smith as an example of a player who was talented, had a larger primacy of an offense but ended up winning a title as he gave up primacy and bought into a Team First mentality and expanded more effort defensively.

As for Wiggins, yeah, in a vacuum he is/was more talented than Jaylen Brown. However, his game remained relatively similar from the season he was drafted through present day. But GSW got him to buy-in as a true 3+D archetypical wing and they win a title with him not being an unstoppable force offensively, but being an integral defensive component complimenting Draymond Green.

Browns lack of impact probably just comes down to Tatum alone being better than Tatum + brown have been, and brown lineups without Tatum not being particularly good. He’s probably a tad overrated in general.

[Top 15], but where do we then peg him?

He’s generally a 25ppg scorer and 1-2% above league average TS, just had a bad season from three this year so he was only slightly above average effeciency wise, but comparing him to how Wiggins was in minessotta doesnt make sense

I agree about comparing him to Wiggins--let's not compare him to Wiggins in Minnesota. I hope nobody is doing that here.

As for "Generally a 25 PPG scorer"...Do you know how many seasons [outside of 2023] where Jaylen Brown averaged 25 PPG? 0.

How is it that a player who has never scored 25 PPG categorized as generally a 25 PPG scorer?

I was hoping you meant post-season, but he has never averaged 25 PPG in the post-season either.

2022: +0.8 TS% on 23.6 PPG
2021: +1.4 TS% on 24.7 PPG
2020: +1.8 TS% on 20.3 PPG

There is another issue with Jaylen Brown's scoring beyond the lack-luster 3P% over the past 2 seasons. He has a pedestrian free throw rate. This is why his scoring isn't impactful or seen through the impact data or +/-. This is why he barely at league average in terms of pure scoring efficiency.

Going by positions like that makes sense if ur going perimeter vs bigs, not for a point guard vs a shooting guard.

Umm...Jaylen Brown is a Wing, yes? There are Point Guards, Wings and Bigs, right?

That's what I am trying to get at here. CP3 and Curry have magnitudes more offensive impact. If Jaylen Brown wants to be a 30%+ USG, scoring wing with middling defense and sub-par playmaking and free-throw generation, his impact is going to suffer immensely compared to if he optimized his shots, lowered his usage and bought into the idea of guarding a teams best wing for 35 Minutes per night.

Was I not clear enough?

I was simply using JR Smith as an example of a player who was talented, had a larger primacy of an offense but ended up winning a title as he gave up primacy and bought into a Team First mentality and expanded more effort defensively.

As for Wiggins, yeah, in a vacuum he is/was more talented than Jaylen Brown. However, his game remained relatively similar from the season he was drafted through present day. But GSW got him to buy-in as a true 3+D archetypical wing and they win a title with him not being an unstoppable force offensively, but being an integral defensive component complimenting Draymond Green.

A few things

1. In the context of a talented player that’s doing too much, why would you mention Wiggins and then say ur not talking about Wiggins in Minnesota?

2. His average ppg over the past 3 years is literally 25.0 lol. Over the past 3 years his marks are 24.7, 23.6, and 26.6. Does it change my statement much more if I say he’s at 24 ppg lmao

3. He’s a shooting guard lol, yes of course Curry and pre Cp3 who I didn’t even mention are better offensively not a single serious human being has ever disputed that, but saying that Curry and cp3 are better for their position is largely meaningless when they’re both perimeter guys and Curry isn’t even someone that can guard quicker players. The idea of being a PG defender is relevant if ur talking about a small guy that can really guard the quicker guards in the league that might be too fast for wings but this isn’t the case, saying brown isn’t playing PG is largely meaningless when what ur saying is more so brown isn’t facilitating the offense therefore you can’t compare him defensive to specific players that do which doesn’t make sense

Again, the only reason his impact data probably isn’t good is because Tatum alone lineups kill it is because Tatum + brown lineups are simply quite good, nothing more than that.

He’s not like a top 10 top 15 guy but if ur genuinely think he’s the 4th best guy on the team that’s an absurd bar, he’s closer to a top 25 guy probably although the top is pretty stacked nowadays

Browns for sure a guy that has the talent that if he’s on his own team and used right he’d be a top 30 player, being all-NBA second team is probably BS

It’s valid that brown goes hero ball too much and has limitations that mean he’s probably not leading his own team effectively but I’m generally blaming coaching more than anything else there.

I'm not seeing much in his box aggregates or his impact profile (certainly via on-off - and granting that a deep team doesn't help) that indicates he "for sure" would "be a top 30 player". He might easily be perceived as such and perhaps already is. I imagine he could bump that usage up even further in a different context, probably boosting some box aggregates. I'd like more actual production and particularly more evidence of impact on winning (and at the margins more staying on the court) to have certainty of being capable of being someone who "should" be the best player on his team (top 30).

On "the only reason..."
1) Tatum's impact signal seems much better
2) Any single reason for an impact signal being where it is would seem to disregard the number of inputs. I think at best this is clanky phrasing.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Was I not clear enough?

I was simply using JR Smith as an example of a player who was talented, had a larger primacy of an offense but ended up winning a title as he gave up primacy and bought into a Team First mentality and expanded more effort defensively.

As for Wiggins, yeah, in a vacuum he is/was more talented than Jaylen Brown. However, his game remained relatively similar from the season he was drafted through present day. But GSW got him to buy-in as a true 3+D archetypical wing and they win a title with him not being an unstoppable force offensively, but being an integral defensive component complimenting Draymond Green.



[Top 15], but where do we then peg him?



I agree about comparing him to Wiggins--let's not compare him to Wiggins in Minnesota. I hope nobody is doing that here.

As for "Generally a 25 PPG scorer"...Do you know how many seasons [outside of 2023] where Jaylen Brown averaged 25 PPG? 0.

How is it that a player who has never scored 25 PPG categorized as generally a 25 PPG scorer?

I was hoping you meant post-season, but he has never averaged 25 PPG in the post-season either.

2022: +0.8 TS% on 23.6 PPG
2021: +1.4 TS% on 24.7 PPG
2020: +1.8 TS% on 20.3 PPG

There is another issue with Jaylen Brown's scoring beyond the lack-luster 3P% over the past 2 seasons. He has a pedestrian free throw rate. This is why his scoring isn't impactful or seen through the impact data or +/-. This is why he barely at league average in terms of pure scoring efficiency.



Umm...Jaylen Brown is a Wing, yes? There are Point Guards, Wings and Bigs, right?

That's what I am trying to get at here. CP3 and Curry have magnitudes more offensive impact. If Jaylen Brown wants to be a 30%+ USG, scoring wing with middling defense and sub-par playmaking and free-throw generation, his impact is going to suffer immensely compared to if he optimized his shots, lowered his usage and bought into the idea of guarding a teams best wing for 35 Minutes per night.

Was I not clear enough?

I was simply using JR Smith as an example of a player who was talented, had a larger primacy of an offense but ended up winning a title as he gave up primacy and bought into a Team First mentality and expanded more effort defensively.

As for Wiggins, yeah, in a vacuum he is/was more talented than Jaylen Brown. However, his game remained relatively similar from the season he was drafted through present day. But GSW got him to buy-in as a true 3+D archetypical wing and they win a title with him not being an unstoppable force offensively, but being an integral defensive component complimenting Draymond Green.

A few things

1. In the context of a talented player that’s doing too much, why would you mention Wiggins and then say ur not talking about Wiggins in Minnesota?

2. His average ppg over the past 3 years is literally 25.0 lol. Over the past 3 years his marks are 24.7, 23.6, and 26.6. Does it change my statement much more if I say he’s at 24 ppg lmao

3. He’s a shooting guard lol, yes of course Curry and pre Cp3 who I didn’t even mention are better offensively not a single serious human being has ever disputed that, but saying that Curry and cp3 are better for their position is largely meaningless when they’re both perimeter guys and Curry isn’t even someone that can guard quicker players. The idea of being a PG defender is relevant if ur talking about a small guy that can really guard the quicker guards in the league that might be too fast for wings but this isn’t the case, saying brown isn’t playing PG is largely meaningless when what ur saying is more so brown isn’t facilitating the offense therefore you can’t compare him defensive to specific players that do which doesn’t make sense

Again, the only reason his impact data probably isn’t good is because Tatum alone lineups kill it is because Tatum + brown lineups are simply quite good, nothing more than that.

He’s not like a top 10 top 15 guy but if ur genuinely think he’s the 4th best guy on the team that’s an absurd bar, he’s closer to a top 25 guy probably although the top is pretty stacked nowadays

Browns for sure a guy that has the talent that if he’s on his own team and used right he’d be a top 30 player, being all-NBA second team is probably BS

It’s valid that brown goes hero ball too much and has limitations that mean he’s probably not leading his own team effectively but I’m generally blaming coaching more than anything else there.

I'm not seeing much in his box aggregates or his impact profile (certainly via on-off - and granting that a deep team doesn't help) that indicates he "for sure" would "be a top 30 player". He might easily be perceived as such and perhaps already is. I imagine he could bump that usage up even further in a different context, probably boosting some box aggregates. I'd like more actual production and particularly more evidence of impact on winning (and at the margins more staying on the court) to have certainty of being capable of being someone who "should" be the best player on his team (top 30).

On "the only reason..."
1) Tatum's impact signal seems much better
2) Any single reason for an impact signal being where it is would seem to disregard the number of inputs. I think at best this is clanky phrasing.

Yea, Tatum is a lot better

Obviously calling it the only reason is an exaggeration, another reason is because the idea he was close to Tatum was BS and he is a bit overrated with flaws that explain why when he is there alone without Tatum the offense isn’t particularly good but probably stil better than when both are gone, but you absolutely can explain impact signals looking different than expected lol, if you take every impact metric at face value you aren’t doing anything lol

I don’t think a top 30 player = a guy that is for sure even reasonably effective leading his own team. I’d argue jrue over brown probably and I don’t think he’d lead his own team either

[Owly]

A few things

1. In the context of a talented player that’s doing too much, why would you mention Wiggins and then say ur not talking about Wiggins in Minnesota?

2. His average ppg over the past 3 years is literally 25.0 lol. Over the past 3 years his marks are 24.7, 23.6, and 26.6. Does it change my statement much more if I say he’s at 24 ppg lmao

3. He’s a shooting guard lol, yes of course Curry and pre Cp3 who I didn’t even mention are better offensively not a single serious human being has ever disputed that, but saying that Curry and cp3 are better for their position is largely meaningless when they’re both perimeter guys and Curry isn’t even someone that can guard quicker players. The idea of being a PG defender is relevant if ur talking about a small guy that can really guard the quicker guards in the league that might be too fast for wings but this isn’t the case, saying brown isn’t playing PG is largely meaningless when what ur saying is more so brown isn’t facilitating the offense therefore you can’t compare him defensive to specific players that do which doesn’t make sense

Again, the only reason his impact data probably isn’t good is because Tatum alone lineups kill it is because Tatum + brown lineups are simply quite good, nothing more than that.

He’s not like a top 10 top 15 guy but if ur genuinely think he’s the 4th best guy on the team that’s an absurd bar, he’s closer to a top 25 guy probably although the top is pretty stacked nowadays

Browns for sure a guy that has the talent that if he’s on his own team and used right he’d be a top 30 player, being all-NBA second team is probably BS

It’s valid that brown goes hero ball too much and has limitations that mean he’s probably not leading his own team effectively but I’m generally blaming coaching more than anything else there.

I'm not seeing much in his box aggregates or his impact profile (certainly via on-off - and granting that a deep team doesn't help) that indicates he "for sure" would "be a top 30 player". He might easily be perceived as such and perhaps already is. I imagine he could bump that usage up even further in a different context, probably boosting some box aggregates. I'd like more actual production and particularly more evidence of impact on winning (and at the margins more staying on the court) to have certainty of being capable of being someone who "should" be the best player on his team (top 30).

On "the only reason..."
1) Tatum's impact signal seems much better
2) Any single reason for an impact signal being where it is would seem to disregard the number of inputs. I think at best this is clanky phrasing.

Yea, Tatum is a lot better

Obviously calling it the only reason is an exaggeration, another reason is because the idea he was close to Tatum was BS and he is a bit overrated with flaws that explain why when he is there alone without Tatum the offense isn’t particularly good but probably stil better than when both are gone, but you absolutely can explain impact signals looking different than expected lol, if you take every impact metric at face value you aren’t doing anything lol

I don’t think a top 30 player = a guy that is for sure even reasonably effective leading his own team. I’d argue jrue over brown probably and I don’t think he’d lead his own team either

To be clear I didn't say lead. Just, theoretically there are 30 teams, so the top 30 players would in a really balanced league be the best player on a team. Lead us something different.

I don't see why perception would be a reason Brown's impact data looks so pedestrian (/"aren't good"). It might, I suppose, be a reason believers would see it as disappointing or unreflective or less than they expected.

Point of Tatum being looking much better is ... if the Tatum-Brown minutes were such a killer, why does Tatum still look so good. They've spent their careers together and both been starters since Tatum arrived. Tatum looks pretty big impact. Brown looks average. if the together were so harmful it should hurt Tatum. And if it is then isn't that ultimately an argument that 'well Tatum looks great without Brown but he's getting dragged down by the big "with Brown" minutes' i.e. an argument that damns Brown.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I'm not seeing much in his box aggregates or his impact profile (certainly via on-off - and granting that a deep team doesn't help) that indicates he "for sure" would "be a top 30 player". He might easily be perceived as such and perhaps already is. I imagine he could bump that usage up even further in a different context, probably boosting some box aggregates. I'd like more actual production and particularly more evidence of impact on winning (and at the margins more staying on the court) to have certainty of being capable of being someone who "should" be the best player on his team (top 30).

On "the only reason..."
1) Tatum's impact signal seems much better
2) Any single reason for an impact signal being where it is would seem to disregard the number of inputs. I think at best this is clanky phrasing.

Yea, Tatum is a lot better

Obviously calling it the only reason is an exaggeration, another reason is because the idea he was close to Tatum was BS and he is a bit overrated with flaws that explain why when he is there alone without Tatum the offense isn’t particularly good but probably stil better than when both are gone, but you absolutely can explain impact signals looking different than expected lol, if you take every impact metric at face value you aren’t doing anything lol

I don’t think a top 30 player = a guy that is for sure even reasonably effective leading his own team. I’d argue jrue over brown probably and I don’t think he’d lead his own team either

To be clear I didn't say lead. Just, theoretically there are 30 teams, so the top 30 players would in a really balanced league be the best player on a team. Lead us something different.

I don't see why perception would be a reason Brown's impact data looks so pedestrian (/"aren't good"). It might, I suppose, be a reason believers would see it as disappointing or unreflective or less than they expected.

Point of Tatum being looking much better is ... if the Tatum-Brown minutes were such a killer, why does Tatum still look so good. They've spent their careers together and both been starters since Tatum arrived. Tatum looks pretty big impact. Brown looks average. if the together were so harmful it should hurt Tatum. And if it is then isn't that ultimately an argument that 'well Tatum looks great without Brown but he's getting dragged down by the big "with Brown" minutes' i.e. an argument that damns Brown.

I mean if ur trying to argue that Jaylen brown being the best player on any team is unrealistic that’s just silly, this isn’t a balanced league.

I don’t know what you’re talking about with perception lol

Why would the Tatum + brown minutes drag Tatum down when it’s still overwhelmingly positive? That doesn’t even make sense. It’s just that Tatum lineups without brown ate marginally better and brown does have limitations which mean he can’t lead his own team effectively

[70sFan]

I don't think Brown is anywhere near close to top 25.

[Colbinii]

I don't think Brown is anywhere near close to top 25.

You don't think this player is Top 25?

PER: 50th
WS: 80th
WS/48: 104th
OBPM: 53rd
TS+: 223rd
FG+: 156th
Total +/-: 27th [The real kicker--he has teammates ranked 4th, 6th and 20th]
RAPTOR: 73rd
LEBRON: 86th
EPM: 45th [90th percentile]

How dare you. He ranked Top 50 in three major categories

[Owly]

Yea, Tatum is a lot better

Obviously calling it the only reason is an exaggeration, another reason is because the idea he was close to Tatum was BS and he is a bit overrated with flaws that explain why when he is there alone without Tatum the offense isn’t particularly good but probably stil better than when both are gone, but you absolutely can explain impact signals looking different than expected lol, if you take every impact metric at face value you aren’t doing anything lol

I don’t think a top 30 player = a guy that is for sure even reasonably effective leading his own team. I’d argue jrue over brown probably and I don’t think he’d lead his own team either

To be clear I didn't say lead. Just, theoretically there are 30 teams, so the top 30 players would in a really balanced league be the best player on a team. Lead us something different.

I don't see why perception would be a reason Brown's impact data looks so pedestrian (/"aren't good"). It might, I suppose, be a reason believers would see it as disappointing or unreflective or less than they expected.

Point of Tatum being looking much better is ... if the Tatum-Brown minutes were such a killer, why does Tatum still look so good. They've spent their careers together and both been starters since Tatum arrived. Tatum looks pretty big impact. Brown looks average. if the together were so harmful it should hurt Tatum. And if it is then isn't that ultimately an argument that 'well Tatum looks great without Brown but he's getting dragged down by the big "with Brown" minutes' i.e. an argument that damns Brown.

I mean if ur trying to argue that Jaylen brown being the best player on any team is unrealistic that’s just silly, this isn’t a balanced league.

I don’t know what you’re talking about with perception lol

Why would the Tatum + brown minutes drag Tatum down when it’s still overwhelmingly positive? That doesn’t even make sense. It’s just that Tatum lineups without brown ate marginally better and brown does have limitations which mean he can’t lead his own team effectively

No I'm arguing regarding him being worthy of being best player on a team, i.e. top 30. This is explicit. Actual best player on any team includes awful teams and is a different and much lower bar. It really isn’t that complex and I had thought you grasped it already but the NBA has 30 teams so the top 30 players could be considered being worthy of being the best player on a team (regardless of whether or not they happen to be, which would regard circumstance, not player goodness).

You said

Again, the only reason his impact data probably isn’t good is because Tatum alone lineups kill it is because Tatum + brown lineups are simply quite good, nothing more than that.

then

Obviously calling it the only reason is an exaggeration, another reason is because the idea he was close to Tatum was BS and he is a bit overrated

Again, I have no idea how him being overrated would cause his impact data to "probably [not be] good." The stuff regarding perception is me trying to give you an out in terms of what you said making sense. The blunter version be to question how you thought the “idea he was close to Tatum” was a reason “his impact data probably isn’t good”?

Okay so now we've gone from he's "only" getting “kill[ed]” by a fellow starters high impact without him [me: and in general] relative to their shared minutes to those shared minutes are "overwhelmingly positive". Why would "overwhelmingly positive" minutes with a star fellow starter be the only thing that makes you look like a circa neutral impact player. Maybe you're ad hoc (and without stating it) switching between net rating and on-off and assuming I'm doing the same? I don’t know but that’s the only way I can make sense of it.
When it comes down to it Boston have at the career level been +8.2 points per 100 with JT on the court than they are with him on the bench. The same stat for Brown is +0.2. Ignoring the rookie year and doing their shared career Brown’s number goes up to +1.0. Playoffs (small samples, noisy, uneven opposition etc) that goes to +5.1 JT. -4.0 Brown, -4.4 Brown in the with Tatum era.
I’m open to better metrics suggesting this is a mirage. But it seems like however one wants to slice it whilst Brown is a useful player on a good team, he has done relatively little in terms of evidencing driving impact (despite starting and I think typically finishing with someone showing much greater impact signal) in the manner someone who would “for sure” be a top 30 player.

My suspicion is this isn’t going anywhere productive at this point and I feel like I’m repeating myself so unless there’s something particularly compelling I think I’ll leave things there.

[MyUniBroDavis]

To be clear I didn't say lead. Just, theoretically there are 30 teams, so the top 30 players would in a really balanced league be the best player on a team. Lead us something different.

I don't see why perception would be a reason Brown's impact data looks so pedestrian (/"aren't good"). It might, I suppose, be a reason believers would see it as disappointing or unreflective or less than they expected.

Point of Tatum being looking much better is ... if the Tatum-Brown minutes were such a killer, why does Tatum still look so good. They've spent their careers together and both been starters since Tatum arrived. Tatum looks pretty big impact. Brown looks average. if the together were so harmful it should hurt Tatum. And if it is then isn't that ultimately an argument that 'well Tatum looks great without Brown but he's getting dragged down by the big "with Brown" minutes' i.e. an argument that damns Brown.

I mean if ur trying to argue that Jaylen brown being the best player on any team is unrealistic that’s just silly, this isn’t a balanced league.

I don’t know what you’re talking about with perception lol

Why would the Tatum + brown minutes drag Tatum down when it’s still overwhelmingly positive? That doesn’t even make sense. It’s just that Tatum lineups without brown ate marginally better and brown does have limitations which mean he can’t lead his own team effectively

No I'm arguing regarding him being worthy of being best player on a team, i.e. top 30. This is explicit. Actual best player on any team includes awful teams and is a different and much lower bar. It really isn’t that complex and I had thought you grasped it already but the NBA has 30 teams so the top 30 players could be considered being worthy of being the best player on a team (regardless of whether or not they happen to be, which would regard circumstance, not player goodness).

You said

Again, the only reason his impact data probably isn’t good is because Tatum alone lineups kill it is because Tatum + brown lineups are simply quite good, nothing more than that.

then

Obviously calling it the only reason is an exaggeration, another reason is because the idea he was close to Tatum was BS and he is a bit overrated

Again, I have no idea how him being overrated would cause his impact data to "probably [not be] good." The stuff regarding perception is me trying to give you an out in terms of what you said making sense. The blunter version be to question how you thought the “idea he was close to Tatum” was a reason “his impact data probably isn’t good”?

Okay so now we've gone from he's "only" getting “kill[ed]” by a fellow starters high impact without him [me: and in general] relative to their shared minutes to those shared minutes are "overwhelmingly positive". Why would "overwhelmingly positive" minutes with a star fellow starter be the only thing that makes you look like a circa neutral impact player. Maybe you're ad hoc (and without stating it) switching between net rating and on-off and assuming I'm doing the same? I don’t know but that’s the only way I can make sense of it.
When it comes down to it Boston have at the career level been +8.2 points per 100 with JT on the court than they are with him on the bench. The same stat for Brown is +0.2. Ignoring the rookie year and doing their shared career Brown’s number goes up to +1.0. Playoffs (small samples, noisy, uneven opposition etc) that goes to +5.1 JT. -4.0 Brown, -4.4 Brown in the with Tatum era.
I’m open to better metrics suggesting this is a mirage. But it seems like however one wants to slice it whilst Brown is a useful player on a good team, he has done relatively little in terms of evidencing driving impact (despite starting and I think typically finishing with someone showing much greater impact signal) in the manner someone who would “for sure” be a top 30 player.

My suspicion is this isn’t going anywhere productive at this point and I feel like I’m repeating myself so unless there’s something particularly compelling I think I’ll leave things there.

Saying that a top 30 player can be the best player on a team is utterly meaningless because it’s an unrealistic scenario. If ur saying there’s not a possible roster construction where Jaylen brown is the best player on the team that’s silly. This entire “if he’s top 30 I think he could be the best in a team and idk about that” viewpoint is silly, when you’re not mentioning guys who are in that area at all either

His impact data isn’t as good as expectations were because expectations were too high, I don’t think it was that confusing, it’s really isn’t that complex

2023
Tatum, no Brown = 122 offensive rtg, 110.4 def rtg
Tatum + brown = 120 offensive rtg, 114 def rtg
Brown + no Tatum 113.5 offensive rtg, 110.5 def rtg
No brown + Tatum = 110.5 offensive rtg, 109.4 def rtg

2022
Tatum + brown = 118.8 offensive rtg, 105 def rtg
Tatum + no brown = 117 offensive rtg, 107.5 def rtg
Brown + no Tatum = 109.5 offensive rtg, 108 def rtg
Neither = 105 offensive rtg, 113.5 def rtg

2021
Tatum + brown = 117 offensive rtg, 114.5 def rtg
Tatum no brown = 117.5 offensive rtg 114 def rtg
Brown no Tatum = 111 offensive rtg, 111.5 def rtg
Neither = 104 offensive rtg, 109 defensive rtg

Tatum minutes without brown being good means his “off court” isn’t gonna be good, their minutes together are slightly worse, brown minutes without Tatum are somewhat mediocre and minutes neither of them play are generally quite bad. There’s absolutely no reason this would hurt Tatum if you understand how this works


It’s not that Tatum + brown minutes are bad it’s that they are overall slightly worse than Tatum minutes alone

If Tatum didn’t exist brown absolutely would have a better impact profile, better counting numbers, and his team would be much worse. The idea that you can parse an individuals specific contribution in a tandem based lineup based on their contributions individually outside of that tandem is probably flawed in general


Maybe you can argue the entirety of the offense of brown + Tatum lineups is entirely based on tatum, but given how much brown does contribute volume wise in those lineups and the fact that the actual difference is pretty minuscule offensively, that doesn’t really make much sense

Once you look into his actual lineup data, you see they actually do, so decently well when he’s on the court, just they generally do better than you’d expect when he’s off of it as well, and that is entirely due to minutes without brown, and with Tatum.