Moore: Magic Need to Trade for Malcolm Brogdon

[Residual-Heat]

Im fine with how theyve handled Suggs so far. Suggs was too reckless in his first season, and he was going to get injured regardless of where he starts. I like what they did last season. Whether Suggs plays at PG or SG, I dont think matters too much. We played Oladipo at both positions. As long as he's improving its fine.

[jonbob17]

Not sure who we would give up. Seems like Portland needs to move Brogdon to get assets and clear minutes for their young guards. Don't know if would make sense to trade from our guard depth in a direct deal...and a third team contender seems like they would prefer Brogdon to our guards anyways....

I don't know...If we could move Fultz and Harris, and maybe one pic...sure...i just don't see a good match.

[Knightro]

Not sure who we would give up. Seems like Portland needs to move Brogdon to get assets and clear minutes for their young guards. Don't know if would make sense to trade from our guard depth in a direct deal...and a third team contender seems like they would prefer Brogdon to our guards anyways....

I don't know...If we could move Fultz and Harris, and maybe one pic...sure...i just don't see a good match.

Portland really wants a draft pick or multiple draft picks above all else. The players they'd be getting back are less relevant to them in this case IMO.

It would be something like Harris, Okeke and a 1st round pick for Brogdon.

[VFX]

Overall, Suggs fandom is based on things that he did against weak competition at college, where he was 3rd best player at. His legacy is half court, off glass shot.
Since his arrival in nba, he is mediocre bench player and one man tank as starter (in rookie season).

Only reason why people project him at SG is because Magic have like 12 point guards better than him, and at SG they have nobody. But that notion alone, doesn't make him shooting guard. hell, Cole is way better "shooting guard" than Sugggs.

False.

Suggs is a hard worker. He increased his draft stock in college compared to Cade and Green who were always projected highly while accomplishing less before they were drafted. Would you rather have either of those players or even Barnes? None of them would make sense in the current lineup let alone Giddey.

There’s an importance in knowing you have a guy that is going to guard the other teams best back court player whenever he’s on the floor. Don’t discount defense and plays that determine the outcome of games.

His offense became better at the end of last season when he was finally healthy for a stretch. I appreciate Orlando having players with toughness for the first time in a decade. There is a reason why every Magic trade proposal I see on the TnT thread from other fans involves him.

Jalen Suggs was overrated college point guard, who wasn't even capable playing PG there ,but instad of actually evaluating things he WAS doing he was evaluated based on things scouts/fans/GMs thought he could be doing under different circumstances.

His college team went 31-1.
He wasn't leading scorer. He wasn't second leading scorer.
He wasn't even leading assists guy , despite fact his usage was 25% compared to Nembhard's 14,7%
He didn't lead team in BPM ( he was actually 4th)
He didn't lead team in Win share ( 4th)

He shot just 33,7% for 3 ,on rather mediocre 74% FTs.

But on top of all this, they NEVER played pick&roll. And we had various , albet creative, excuses why. Real reason why was in front of us. Suggs can't play pick&roll.

In rookie year, his pick& roll percentile was epic 13th.
In sophmore year his pick&roll percentile was rather bad 53th ( if you think that's not bad, RJ Hampton was at 60 and Franz is at 58th on double of attemps).

There’s an importance in knowing you have a guy that is going to guard the other teams best back court player whenever he’s on the floor. Don’t discount defense and plays that determine the outcome of games.

Defense and guards... Jamal Murray and KCP, against Struss and Gabe Vincent in finals. Yep, i'm 100% overlooking that. Knowing best guard of a decade(s) and one of best PGs to ever play, Curry, is big defensive liability, after biggest trade of offseason is DPOY candidate for defensive liability swap, where everybody considers Bucks "winners".

His offense became better at the end of last season when he was finally healthy for a stretch.

When? He shot 42/31,7 for whole month of March. Your alleged "positive" sample includes 5 games in April, playing against deep benches. Pss don't tell anybody, but in 3 out of last 5 games, Magic faced teams without starters of opposing teams playing, witch means Suggs faced bunch of deep bench bodies,and in other 2 games where he faced *nba* competition he shot 6-15 FG on 1-8 for 3 and cumulative 1 assist. What a thrill. But hey ,he was waaaay better than Dean Wade, in 24 points beatdown of Cavs bench over Magic bench players

There is a reason why every Magic trade proposal I see on the TnT thread from other fans involves him

Same reason why for 4 years every Magic trade included Cam Reddish. People love to project previous expetations as still realistic scenario for underachiving players who they deem as cheap. Ask them will they trade lottery pick for him , like 5th pick maybe?

TOday, if you line up Josh Okogie or any other *try hard -but no talent * guard, and Suggs, you will struggle to find difference. Playing hard isn't skill. Lottery isn't there to draft for toughness and throwing yourself for a ball. For two years, he is waste of 5th overall pick. If third year changes that, cool, great for us. But let's not project him into something he isn't . To me, today, it's simply hypocritical to throw Fultz under a ringer and have blind homer spot for guard who shoots basically worst than him, and also can't dribble the ball and also can't pass. But unlike Fultz he is our own lottery investment.

You should clearly be an NBA scout with the huge sweeping proclamations on players 2 years into their careers. Why hasn't Orlando hired you yet???

Who do you like on Orlando's roster? I'm going to guess only Franz Wagner because its now safe to say he's not a "bust" 3 years in (the safest take imaginable). You are the kinda guy that thinks players are either busts or allstars.

Have you ever even made predictions prior to the draft on who you think is going to be good? Probably not because you hate the draft and the idea of developing players, but you still criticize them if they aren't elite by year 3. You should probably stop citing college stats on prospects since you don't ever have real opinions on them until 5-6 seasons after the fact when its safe to finally say they are busts and you can pull the same 3 examples out of your ass.

I'm also not reading all of your bloated examples, which is just mindless babbling 90% of the time littered with smiling emojis. Its understandable why a few people have you blocked here some of the time. You DO have good points to make when its not leaping to conclusions and dying on every hill imaginable with cherry picked examples.

[Knightro]

Can someone show me an example of a supposed point guard who couldn't dribble the ball for more than 2 seconds all of the sudden being able to learn how to navigate life as a full-time point guard in their career? That is wild.

All because a guy needs to validate his obsession over Fultz 24/7

Isn't this is precisely what rebuilding seasons are all about though?

Like there's certainly no expectation to win when you're taking. There's not even an expectation to play well candidly. It's entirely a player development thing.

If they handed the ball to Suggs in his rookie year and just said go nuts, would it really have mattered if he averaged 6 turnovers a game and they went 15-67? The possibility of those increased reps leading to a breakthrough outweighs the slop, at least IMO.

[Residual-Heat]

Can someone show me an example of a supposed point guard who couldn't dribble the ball for more than 2 seconds all of the sudden being able to learn how to navigate life as a full-time point guard in their career? That is wild.

All because a guy needs to validate his obsession over Fultz 24/7

Isn't this is precisely what rebuilding seasons are all about though?

Like there's certainly no expectation to win when you're taking. There's not even an expectation to play well candidly. It's entirely a player development thing.

If they handed the ball to Suggs in his rookie year and just said go nuts, would it really have mattered if he averaged 6 turnovers a game and they went 15-67? The possibility of those increased reps leading to a breakthrough outweighs the slop, at least IMO.

it hurts the development of other young players on the roster (WCJ, Franz mainly)

[Knightro]

it hurts the development of other young players on the roster (WCJ, Franz mainly)

That's a fair counterpoint. But I wonder how much it would have actually impacted those other guys.

Suggs started 11 games at point guard in November last season when Fultz and Anthony were both hurt and in that same stretch Franz averaged 22.4 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.2 APG on a .547/.417/.873 slash.

So clearly Suggs working on his PG game didn't impact Franz all that negatively.

[Residual-Heat]

it hurts the development of other young players on the roster (WCJ, Franz mainly)

That's a fair counterpoint. But I wonder how much it would have actually impacted those other guys.

Suggs started 11 games at point guard in November last season when Fultz and Anthony were both hurt and in that same stretch Franz averaged 22.4 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.2 APG on a .547/.417/.873 slash.

So clearly Suggs working on his PG game didn't impact Franz all that negatively.

Suggs may have been starting at PG, but i would say Franz and to a lesser degree Paolo were mostly running the offense.

Suggs developing into a potential PG, is not just dependent on Suggs himself IMO, but also depends on how much Paolo and Franz develop their ballhandling and playmaking. Some people are already saying "Suggs will never be a PG". Im not sure yet.

[jonbob17]

Not sure who we would give up. Seems like Portland needs to move Brogdon to get assets and clear minutes for their young guards. Don't know if would make sense to trade from our guard depth in a direct deal...and a third team contender seems like they would prefer Brogdon to our guards anyways....

I don't know...If we could move Fultz and Harris, and maybe one pic...sure...i just don't see a good match.

Portland really wants a draft pick or multiple draft picks above all else. The players they'd be getting back are less relevant to them in this case IMO.

It would be something like Harris, Okeke and a 1st round pick for Brogdon.

That sounds cheap and a deal we should consider...at the same time it would create an even bigger log jam for minutes. Fultz would have to go in this instance, I suppose another deal could be made, moving Fultz for depth or draft capital....be nice it we could just include Fultz, Harris to 3rd team and have draft picks from 3rd team go directly to Portland with matching salary...the Magic throw in the Denver pick for good measure.

Fultz Harris Denver pick for Brogdon...Maybe a PG thin team like Phoenix, Toronto, or Miami would want Fultz and or Harris.

Magic
Brogdon Cole
Suggs Black
Franz Howard/Houstan
Paolo Ingles/Isaac
WCJ Isaac/Goga

I think that adds wins this year, while getting us away from a large commitment to PG next ofseason Brogdon 2/45, while getting us 2 years of competent lead guard while we evaluate Suggs/AB. Again I guess I would assume Phoenix Toronto or Miami would prefer Brogdon to Fultz cutting us out...or beating an offer of Harris, Okeke, and a pick.

As always I guess it comes down to how married is this FO to Fultz...

[jonbob17]

The Athletic suggests JI and Cole and two second rounders.

[pepe1991]

False.

Suggs is a hard worker. He increased his draft stock in college compared to Cade and Green who were always projected highly while accomplishing less before they were drafted. Would you rather have either of those players or even Barnes? None of them would make sense in the current lineup let alone Giddey.

There’s an importance in knowing you have a guy that is going to guard the other teams best back court player whenever he’s on the floor. Don’t discount defense and plays that determine the outcome of games.

His offense became better at the end of last season when he was finally healthy for a stretch. I appreciate Orlando having players with toughness for the first time in a decade. There is a reason why every Magic trade proposal I see on the TnT thread from other fans involves him.

Jalen Suggs was overrated college point guard, who wasn't even capable playing PG there ,but instad of actually evaluating things he WAS doing he was evaluated based on things scouts/fans/GMs thought he could be doing under different circumstances.

His college team went 31-1.
He wasn't leading scorer. He wasn't second leading scorer.
He wasn't even leading assists guy , despite fact his usage was 25% compared to Nembhard's 14,7%
He didn't lead team in BPM ( he was actually 4th)
He didn't lead team in Win share ( 4th)

He shot just 33,7% for 3 ,on rather mediocre 74% FTs.

But on top of all this, they NEVER played pick&roll. And we had various , albet creative, excuses why. Real reason why was in front of us. Suggs can't play pick&roll.

In rookie year, his pick& roll percentile was epic 13th.
In sophmore year his pick&roll percentile was rather bad 53th ( if you think that's not bad, RJ Hampton was at 60 and Franz is at 58th on double of attemps).

There’s an importance in knowing you have a guy that is going to guard the other teams best back court player whenever he’s on the floor. Don’t discount defense and plays that determine the outcome of games.

Defense and guards... Jamal Murray and KCP, against Struss and Gabe Vincent in finals. Yep, i'm 100% overlooking that. Knowing best guard of a decade(s) and one of best PGs to ever play, Curry, is big defensive liability, after biggest trade of offseason is DPOY candidate for defensive liability swap, where everybody considers Bucks "winners".

His offense became better at the end of last season when he was finally healthy for a stretch.

When? He shot 42/31,7 for whole month of March. Your alleged "positive" sample includes 5 games in April, playing against deep benches. Pss don't tell anybody, but in 3 out of last 5 games, Magic faced teams without starters of opposing teams playing, witch means Suggs faced bunch of deep bench bodies,and in other 2 games where he faced *nba* competition he shot 6-15 FG on 1-8 for 3 and cumulative 1 assist. What a thrill. But hey ,he was waaaay better than Dean Wade, in 24 points beatdown of Cavs bench over Magic bench players

There is a reason why every Magic trade proposal I see on the TnT thread from other fans involves him

Same reason why for 4 years every Magic trade included Cam Reddish. People love to project previous expetations as still realistic scenario for underachiving players who they deem as cheap. Ask them will they trade lottery pick for him , like 5th pick maybe?

TOday, if you line up Josh Okogie or any other *try hard -but no talent * guard, and Suggs, you will struggle to find difference. Playing hard isn't skill. Lottery isn't there to draft for toughness and throwing yourself for a ball. For two years, he is waste of 5th overall pick. If third year changes that, cool, great for us. But let's not project him into something he isn't . To me, today, it's simply hypocritical to throw Fultz under a ringer and have blind homer spot for guard who shoots basically worst than him, and also can't dribble the ball and also can't pass. But unlike Fultz he is our own lottery investment.

You should clearly be an NBA scout with the huge sweeping proclamations on players 2 years into their careers. Why hasn't Orlando hired you yet???

Who do you like on Orlando's roster? I'm going to guess only Franz Wagner because its now safe to say he's not a "bust" 3 years in (the safest take imaginable). You are the kinda guy that thinks players are either busts or allstars.

Have you ever even made predictions prior to the draft on who you think is going to be good? Probably not because you hate the draft and the idea of developing players, but you still criticize them if they aren't elite by year 3. You should probably stop citing college stats on prospects since you don't ever have real opinions on them until 5-6 seasons after the fact when its safe to finally say they are busts and you can pull the same 3 examples out of your ass.

I'm also not reading all of your bloated examples, which is just mindless babbling 90% of the time littered with smiling emojis. Its understandable why a few people have you blocked here some of the time. You DO have good points to make when its not leaping to conclusions and dying on every hill imaginable with cherry picked examples.

You should clearly be an NBA scout with the huge sweeping proclamations on players 2 years into their careers. Why hasn't Orlando hired you yet???

Because they prefer drafting busts

e). You are the kinda guy that thinks players are either busts or allstars.

OR worth investment and not worth of investment?

Have you ever even made predictions prior to the draft on who you think is going to be good? Probably not because you hate the draft and the idea of developing players, but you still criticize them if they aren't elite by year 3.

I liked Suggs before draft. But in retrospective it's clear that lot of negative stuff about him was glossed over . I really don't know how is that arguable? You drafted PG who can't dribble.

Its understandable why a few people have you blocked here some of the time.

Because people don't handle well when somebody attacks their opinion, and take it personal where in reality it's just bunch of random strangers on sports forum talking about basketball?

ou DO have good points to make when its not leaping to conclusions and dying on every hill imaginable with cherry picked examples

I already broke down (today) Suggs playtypes where SG should exceede at, and Suggs fails misserablly at everything . Maybe because he isn't good SG?

[ogmagicfan]

I might be open for trading for Brogdon, but I'm not trading anything of some value for a player who has been plagued by injuries his whole career.

If I was to send a 1st for Brogdon, itd be the Nuggets 1st. Any of our 1st are off limits.

I'm not trading Cole for Brogdon, considering he provides a similar game (more efficient but not as healthy) both suited for a 6th man role.

I'd prefer moving Fultz, Okeke & a 2nd for Brogdon

[Residual-Heat]

The Athletic suggests JI and Cole and two second rounders.

Seems fair, I wouldnt give up a 1st for Brogdon. I would only include a 1st if its for Brogdon+ Williams

[VFX]

Jalen Suggs was overrated college point guard, who wasn't even capable playing PG there ,but instad of actually evaluating things he WAS doing he was evaluated based on things scouts/fans/GMs thought he could be doing under different circumstances.

His college team went 31-1.
He wasn't leading scorer. He wasn't second leading scorer.
He wasn't even leading assists guy , despite fact his usage was 25% compared to Nembhard's 14,7%
He didn't lead team in BPM ( he was actually 4th)
He didn't lead team in Win share ( 4th)

He shot just 33,7% for 3 ,on rather mediocre 74% FTs.

But on top of all this, they NEVER played pick&roll. And we had various , albet creative, excuses why. Real reason why was in front of us. Suggs can't play pick&roll.

In rookie year, his pick& roll percentile was epic 13th.
In sophmore year his pick&roll percentile was rather bad 53th ( if you think that's not bad, RJ Hampton was at 60 and Franz is at 58th on double of attemps).


Defense and guards... Jamal Murray and KCP, against Struss and Gabe Vincent in finals. Yep, i'm 100% overlooking that. Knowing best guard of a decade(s) and one of best PGs to ever play, Curry, is big defensive liability, after biggest trade of offseason is DPOY candidate for defensive liability swap, where everybody considers Bucks "winners".




When? He shot 42/31,7 for whole month of March. Your alleged "positive" sample includes 5 games in April, playing against deep benches. Pss don't tell anybody, but in 3 out of last 5 games, Magic faced teams without starters of opposing teams playing, witch means Suggs faced bunch of deep bench bodies,and in other 2 games where he faced *nba* competition he shot 6-15 FG on 1-8 for 3 and cumulative 1 assist. What a thrill. But hey ,he was waaaay better than Dean Wade, in 24 points beatdown of Cavs bench over Magic bench players


Same reason why for 4 years every Magic trade included Cam Reddish. People love to project previous expetations as still realistic scenario for underachiving players who they deem as cheap. Ask them will they trade lottery pick for him , like 5th pick maybe?

TOday, if you line up Josh Okogie or any other *try hard -but no talent * guard, and Suggs, you will struggle to find difference. Playing hard isn't skill. Lottery isn't there to draft for toughness and throwing yourself for a ball. For two years, he is waste of 5th overall pick. If third year changes that, cool, great for us. But let's not project him into something he isn't . To me, today, it's simply hypocritical to throw Fultz under a ringer and have blind homer spot for guard who shoots basically worst than him, and also can't dribble the ball and also can't pass. But unlike Fultz he is our own lottery investment.

You should clearly be an NBA scout with the huge sweeping proclamations on players 2 years into their careers. Why hasn't Orlando hired you yet???

Who do you like on Orlando's roster? I'm going to guess only Franz Wagner because its now safe to say he's not a "bust" 3 years in (the safest take imaginable). You are the kinda guy that thinks players are either busts or allstars.

Have you ever even made predictions prior to the draft on who you think is going to be good? Probably not because you hate the draft and the idea of developing players, but you still criticize them if they aren't elite by year 3. You should probably stop citing college stats on prospects since you don't ever have real opinions on them until 5-6 seasons after the fact when its safe to finally say they are busts and you can pull the same 3 examples out of your ass.

I'm also not reading all of your bloated examples, which is just mindless babbling 90% of the time littered with smiling emojis. Its understandable why a few people have you blocked here some of the time. You DO have good points to make when its not leaping to conclusions and dying on every hill imaginable with cherry picked examples.

You should clearly be an NBA scout with the huge sweeping proclamations on players 2 years into their careers. Why hasn't Orlando hired you yet???

Because they prefer drafting busts

e). You are the kinda guy that thinks players are either busts or allstars.

OR worth investment and not worth of investment?

Have you ever even made predictions prior to the draft on who you think is going to be good? Probably not because you hate the draft and the idea of developing players, but you still criticize them if they aren't elite by year 3.

I liked Suggs before draft. But in retrospective it's clear that lot of negative stuff about him was glossed over . I really don't know how is that arguable? You drafted PG who can't dribble.

Its understandable why a few people have you blocked here some of the time.

Because people don't handle well when somebody attacks their opinion, and take it personal where in reality it's just bunch of random strangers on sports forum talking about basketball?

ou DO have good points to make when its not leaping to conclusions and dying on every hill imaginable with cherry picked examples

I already broke down (today) Suggs playtypes where SG should exceede at, and Suggs fails misserablly at everything . Maybe because he isn't good SG?

Thats the problem. You are labeling players "busts" with 2 seasons of inconsistent playing time data on an upward trajectory. It's not a guy with 7 years in the league and multiple teams.

How is a player on a rookie deal with 2 years of contract left not "worth investment". You say the same **** about Jett Howard and Anthony Black. HOW TF would you know unless you are deriving all of your data from college and applying zero development progression? Were you looking at Franz Wagner at Michigan knowing he was going to be Orlandos best player in 2 seasons? No, you weren't. Thats why your assessments are cherry picking.

Different players develop at different timeframes. You want to make an assessment after their rookie deal? Go for it. You can convince yourself a player is trash if they are making $15-20m a year for comparison. I will definitely do that when they are making big boy money. On a rookie deal? Nah.

[SOUL]

I think Suggs will be an incredibly useful player, even if he's not what people originally predicted. Don't think him getting thoroughly exposed as a ball handler for 82 games or 2 seasons even would've necessarily been good for his development, nor do real-time reps suddenly make someone a great ball handler. That work is done over the course of the season and off season. He's decent at it now, way better than he was coming in.

Also think the timeline is split on how quickly they want this team to improve or not.. and the most lost people are the ones that want to experiment and play young guys a lot but also win at the same time, which is not how the NBA works lol. Luckily not many fall in this category.

[Bensational]

I think Suggs will be an incredibly useful player, even if he's not what people originally predicted. Don't think him getting thoroughly exposed as a ball handler for 82 games or 2 seasons even would've necessarily been good for his development, nor do real-time reps suddenly make someone a great ball handler. That work is done over the course of the season and off season. He's decent at it now, way better than he was coming in.

Also think the timeline is split on how quickly they want this team to improve or not.. and the most lost people are the ones that want to experiment and play young guys a lot but also win at the same time, which is not how the NBA works lol. Luckily not many fall in this category.

I don’t see any reason why Suggs can’t or won’t learn to slow down and control his game and the floor over his career. For me, his profile puts him on a potential spectrum of MCW - Josh Hart - Pat Bev - JRue - Chauncey. I’d value any of them on the squad.

[Residual-Heat]

Even if he doesnt become anything more than a Bruce Brown or Marcus Smart. Those are the type of players that shine in the play offs, and every team needs one of those guys. I personally believe he will be better than either of them offensively, but we'll see.

[pepe1991]

You should clearly be an NBA scout with the huge sweeping proclamations on players 2 years into their careers. Why hasn't Orlando hired you yet???

Who do you like on Orlando's roster? I'm going to guess only Franz Wagner because its now safe to say he's not a "bust" 3 years in (the safest take imaginable). You are the kinda guy that thinks players are either busts or allstars.

Have you ever even made predictions prior to the draft on who you think is going to be good? Probably not because you hate the draft and the idea of developing players, but you still criticize them if they aren't elite by year 3. You should probably stop citing college stats on prospects since you don't ever have real opinions on them until 5-6 seasons after the fact when its safe to finally say they are busts and you can pull the same 3 examples out of your ass.

I'm also not reading all of your bloated examples, which is just mindless babbling 90% of the time littered with smiling emojis. Its understandable why a few people have you blocked here some of the time. You DO have good points to make when its not leaping to conclusions and dying on every hill imaginable with cherry picked examples.

You should clearly be an NBA scout with the huge sweeping proclamations on players 2 years into their careers. Why hasn't Orlando hired you yet???

Because they prefer drafting busts

e). You are the kinda guy that thinks players are either busts or allstars.

OR worth investment and not worth of investment?

Have you ever even made predictions prior to the draft on who you think is going to be good? Probably not because you hate the draft and the idea of developing players, but you still criticize them if they aren't elite by year 3.

I liked Suggs before draft. But in retrospective it's clear that lot of negative stuff about him was glossed over . I really don't know how is that arguable? You drafted PG who can't dribble.

Its understandable why a few people have you blocked here some of the time.

Because people don't handle well when somebody attacks their opinion, and take it personal where in reality it's just bunch of random strangers on sports forum talking about basketball?

ou DO have good points to make when its not leaping to conclusions and dying on every hill imaginable with cherry picked examples

I already broke down (today) Suggs playtypes where SG should exceede at, and Suggs fails misserablly at everything . Maybe because he isn't good SG?

Thats the problem. You are labeling players "busts" with 2 seasons of inconsistent playing time data on an upward trajectory. It's not a guy with 7 years in the league and multiple teams.

How is a player on a rookie deal with 2 years of contract left not "worth investment". You say the same **** about Jett Howard and Anthony Black. HOW TF would you know unless you are deriving all of your data from college and applying zero development progression? Were you looking at Franz Wagner at Michigan knowing he was going to be Orlandos best player in 2 seasons? No, you weren't. Thats why your assessments are cherry picking.

Different players develop at different timeframes. You want to make an assessment after their rookie deal? Go for it. You can convince yourself a player is trash if they are making $15-20m a year for comparison. I will definitely do that when they are making big boy money. On a rookie deal? Nah.

If you tank whole season for player, and 2,3 years down the line that player can't even become your starter, and you aren't even that good of a team, that's a clear loss. You can try to wiggle around the label as much as you want, but fact remains.
Also, we had situation with Bamba where some of us labeled him "bust" after 1 year. Others were willing to die on his shield for additional 4 years. All of them were waste for Magic.
I've said in past and i'll repeat again, i simply don't see objective reason to "wait" for somebody for years just to become average. NBA gets 40-50 new young players every year, like 30% of players change teams every year. There is plenty of better alternatives to have.

You say the same **** about Jett Howard and Anthony Black. HOW TF would you know unless you are deriving all of your data from college and applying zero development progression?

Let's pump a breaks for a second.
I've said in past, around January, way before draft that i like Black, but that i think he would be terrible fit for us. What changed? You want me to change opinion ONLY because he is Magic player now, despite fact *NOTHING* about team's construction changed? No. I won't do that. It would be hypocritical.
Several hours before draft i wrote that imo, Black could be better SF prospect than PG anyway ( compared him with no-jumpshot Batum).

As far as Jett Howard goes, he was nobody's pick. Much like it was case with Okeke's draft. Nobody wanted him on this forum, nobody knew anything about him, nobody even considered him top 15 pick. Matter of fact, nba draft room, who lot of us visit, had him going 27th.
nba draft.net had him going 24th.

Unlike some fake "thrilled" reactions after quick googling his name, i simply, to this date, hold stand on "okey, if that was your pick, why didn't you simply trade a pick?". I had similar opinion on Okeke's selection, where with Okeke was even more outrageus, because we knew he can't play for a year. Jokes on us, he never could play in nba

Different players develop at different timeframes.

And some players don't develop at all past certain point. That's why to me, it's important to figure out fast who develops and what's most you can get from him, in terms of development AND in terms of trade value.
That goes back to Bamba debates, to me he should have been traded midway through year 2.

I simply don't understand nor will ever agree on notion every player will "Oladipo" himself into allstar after he changes team, so team in fear of looking "bad" , decides to just ride out asset(s) until they have no value left.

[Rainwater]

The seem exact reasons why Jrue wasn't traded here, Brogdon won't be traded here. This is another unrealistic dream.

[VFX]

Because they prefer drafting busts


OR worth investment and not worth of investment?



I liked Suggs before draft. But in retrospective it's clear that lot of negative stuff about him was glossed over . I really don't know how is that arguable? You drafted PG who can't dribble.


Because people don't handle well when somebody attacks their opinion, and take it personal where in reality it's just bunch of random strangers on sports forum talking about basketball?



I already broke down (today) Suggs playtypes where SG should exceede at, and Suggs fails misserablly at everything . Maybe because he isn't good SG?

Thats the problem. You are labeling players "busts" with 2 seasons of inconsistent playing time data on an upward trajectory. It's not a guy with 7 years in the league and multiple teams.

How is a player on a rookie deal with 2 years of contract left not "worth investment". You say the same **** about Jett Howard and Anthony Black. HOW TF would you know unless you are deriving all of your data from college and applying zero development progression? Were you looking at Franz Wagner at Michigan knowing he was going to be Orlandos best player in 2 seasons? No, you weren't. Thats why your assessments are cherry picking.

Different players develop at different timeframes. You want to make an assessment after their rookie deal? Go for it. You can convince yourself a player is trash if they are making $15-20m a year for comparison. I will definitely do that when they are making big boy money. On a rookie deal? Nah.

If you tank whole season for player, and 2,3 years down the line that player can't even become your starter, and you aren't even that good of a team, that's a clear loss. You can try to wiggle around the label as much as you want, but fact remains.
Also, we had situation with Bamba where some of us labeled him "bust" after 1 year. Others were willing to die on his shield for additional 4 years. All of them were waste for Magic.
I've said in past and i'll repeat again, i simply don't see objective reason to "wait" for somebody for years just to become average. NBA gets 40-50 new young players every year, like 30% of players change teams every year. There is plenty of better alternatives to have.

You say the same **** about Jett Howard and Anthony Black. HOW TF would you know unless you are deriving all of your data from college and applying zero development progression?

Let's pump a breaks for a second.
I've said in past, around January, way before draft that i like Black, but that i think he would be terrible fit for us. What changed? You want me to change opinion ONLY because he is Magic player now, despite fact *NOTHING* about team's construction changed? No. I won't do that. It would be hypocritical.
Several hours before draft i wrote that imo, Black could be better SF prospect than PG anyway ( compared him with no-jumpshot Batum).

As far as Jett Howard goes, he was nobody's pick. Much like it was case with Okeke's draft. Nobody wanted him on this forum, nobody knew anything about him, nobody even considered him top 15 pick. Matter of fact, nba draft room, who lot of us visit, had him going 27th.
nba draft.net had him going 24th.

Unlike some fake "thrilled" reactions after quick googling his name, i simply, to this date, hold stand on "okey, if that was your pick, why didn't you simply trade a pick?". I had similar opinion on Okeke's selection, where with Okeke was even more outrageus, because we knew he can't play for a year. Jokes on us, he never could play in nba

Different players develop at different timeframes.

And some players don't develop at all past certain point. That's why to me, it's important to figure out fast who develops and what's most you can get from him, in terms of development AND in terms of trade value.
That goes back to Bamba debates, to me he should have been traded midway through year 2.

I simply don't understand nor will ever agree on notion every player will "Oladipo" himself into allstar after he changes team, so team in fear of looking "bad" , decides to just ride out asset(s) until they have no value left.

You absolutely know for a fact that Suggs does not start in place of Gary Harris because Orlando’s starting point guard is incapable and unwilling of shooting a basketball. That’s the reason. Suggs was never heralded as a lights out shooter. He’s a playmaker on both sides of the court.

I’m never going to argue for Bamba. He was a stupid selection for a zillion reasons we’ve rehashed, but that’s an apples and oranges statement. A large part of the reason Bamba was a dumb selection was the roster construction based on minute distribution and their goals. Anthony Black is only a bad selection if the FO has no clear intention of him earning playing time over mediocre costly guys that have been in the league for 8 seasons.

There weren’t overreactions about Jett. I thought it was a reach but I get the idea behind the pick because of the skillset. Again, none of this matters if you have him buried so deep into the bench that you can’t accurately measure his worth. The same goes for AB.

Nobody is saying players will have an “Oladipo” season. But you are claiming players have hit their ceiling at 20, which is just a blanket r3tarded statement. You have this issue with prospects over the years. You downplay the draft and prospects to the point that your argument no longer makes sense. Everyone is drafted and develops into something. There is a grey area. Some players become Jokic and some players become Reddish. Then there is everyone serviceable in between regardless of what pick they were taken.

Jalen Suggs had a better sophomore season than Marcus Smart as a relatively equal comparison in terms of skillset. You just have no idea how to gauge prospects accurately. Your opinion is invalid from making assessments on them from my perspective.