2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion

[handsome salary]

Hows everyone else watching the games not on Channel 3? Did free streaming services last year at times. It was decent but not always a good experience. Used Sling for the playoffs. May go back to that to see other games too on TNT/ESPN.

[lonea]

Ayton was told to focus on defense and efficiency for 3+ years, and he was pretty damn serviceable at those things. Monty's system and our ball dominant guards wanted to take their shots, and they did. We lost when it mattered.

They had ball "dominant" guards and wings because their former #1 draft pick never fully developed offensively. Extremely efficient finisher and excellent mid range for a big - but he chose to leave it at that.

I'd argue he spent more time in the off-season playing video games than working on his handles, 3pt shot, footwork, etc. Did we ever hear him hanging with or going to one of the vaunted big man camps in the summer to improve? Nope.

Those same ball dominant guards/wings also set the table for what he did do well. With no handles, often poor hands, and unwillingness to back guys down his numbers would be different without them as the legend of "Dominayton" existed only in his head.

This wasn't some situation where the coaching staff was just like "We've got this unstoppable offensive force - let's just purposely never take advantage."

Every game Ayton has played without Booker and/or Paul refutes what you just spouted.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2023/1/1/23532574/a-booker-less-phoenix-suns-team-should-result-higher-ayton-production-potential-all-star-selection

You can't pass the ball to yourself. Dude checked out when Monty refused to change his offense, which sucked and resulted in this team losing in the post-season.

But keep crying my man, I'm sure this obsession you have with Ayton's mental state and many sins will take you far in life.

Bruh, you know why they don't pass him the pass right?

Dude got butterfingers.

You know why they don't let him have the ball right?

Dude can't dribble .

Did you watch Fiba?

Dude should have "dominated" in group play, instead he puts up mediocre stats.

[lonea]

They had ball "dominant" guards and wings because their former #1 draft pick never fully developed offensively. Extremely efficient finisher and excellent mid range for a big - but he chose to leave it at that.

I'd argue he spent more time in the off-season playing video games than working on his handles, 3pt shot, footwork, etc. Did we ever hear him hanging with or going to one of the vaunted big man camps in the summer to improve? Nope.

Those same ball dominant guards/wings also set the table for what he did do well. With no handles, often poor hands, and unwillingness to back guys down his numbers would be different without them as the legend of "Dominayton" existed only in his head.

This wasn't some situation where the coaching staff was just like "We've got this unstoppable offensive force - let's just purposely never take advantage."

Every game Ayton has played without Booker and/or Paul refutes what you just spouted.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2023/1/1/23532574/a-booker-less-phoenix-suns-team-should-result-higher-ayton-production-potential-all-star-selection

You can't pass the ball to yourself. Dude checked out when Monty refused to change his offense, which sucked and resulted in this team losing in the post-season.

But keep crying my man, I'm sure this obsession you have with Ayton's mental state and many sins will take you far in life.

Bruh, you know why they don't pass him the pass right?

Dude got butterfingers.

You know why they don't let him have the ball right?

Dude can't dribble .

[bigfoot]

Watch on YouTube

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[Fo-Real]

Question for you guys: if the Suns had this current roster last year vs the Nuggets, does the series end differently? I think we all know the answer to that. Getting there healthy is everything.


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Who knows? We haven't even seen this current team play yet. Denver was very tough last year. The games we won we barely won and the games we lost were bad. In game 5, KD was like 10-24 with 5 turnovers and Book was 8-19. In game 6, Book was 4-13 with a -27 and KD was 8-19 with 4 turnovers.

Does it surprise you? Both guys averaged 43mpg throughout the entire playoffs up to that point. Once CP3 went down, that was another ball handler down. I mean, the most scoring we got from anybody outside of KD and Book was a 22pt effort from Torrey Craig in like G1 of the 1st round.

Yep and a limited ball handler at that point in the year, we had to start having Okogie bring the ball up the court because the Monstars had stolen Chris Paul's basketball talent. He was hounded into nearly a turnover most times and would screw up the offensive set getting started.

[Fo-Real]

Too much about Ayton in here. Can a mod change the Ayton thread to read "Come one and all to praise or **** on Deandre Ayton"!!! Pre-season starts in like 3 days, we have tons of interviews, practice footage, hype for the season like you wouldnt believe but all that happens here is the last 10+ pages being 95% Deandre god damn Ayton. I wish him well but **** him.

[spanishninja]

Also he was no.2 option with our injuries for a couple months and he became a worse player because his extra shots were 40% jumpers.

this is while Mikal was greatly stepping up and developing himself as a primary option (compare January numbers for both guys). This is why I am skeptical that DA will blossom in the same way that Bridges did. There was opportunity for him to take advantage of increased usage, but he didn't succeed.

Different skillset. One guy developed his handles to the point where he can create almost anywhere on the court while the other is still on the jab step into a jump shoot routine from 2019. In today's NBA, if you can't confidently put the ball on the floor without creating a turnover, you're just going to have to be reliant on others to set you up or take whatever jump shot or put back opportunities you get.

which is why Ayton's value is inevitably going to be limited anyway, and trading him away for a better outside shooter with better handles and passing at the cost of finishing around the rim isn't necessarily as bad as a move than people say.

I have been thinking of Nurkic in terms of like a Vlade Divac or Brad Miller kind of guy in those 00s Sacramento teams that had Bibby and Webber, and those teams were a couple of bad calls away from probably winning the title at least once. If healthy, Nurk can definitely play that kind of role, probably even better.

[spanishninja]

Ayton was told to focus on defense and efficiency for 3+ years, and he was pretty damn serviceable at those things. Monty's system and our ball dominant guards wanted to take their shots, and they did. We lost when it mattered.

They had ball "dominant" guards and wings because their former #1 draft pick never fully developed offensively. Extremely efficient finisher and excellent mid range for a big - but he chose to leave it at that.

I'd argue he spent more time in the off-season playing video games than working on his handles, 3pt shot, footwork, etc. Did we ever hear him hanging with or going to one of the vaunted big man camps in the summer to improve? Nope.

Those same ball dominant guards/wings also set the table for what he did do well. With no handles, often poor hands, and unwillingness to back guys down his numbers would be different without them as the legend of "Dominayton" existed only in his head.

This wasn't some situation where the coaching staff was just like "We've got this unstoppable offensive force - let's just purposely never take advantage."

Every game Ayton has played without Booker and/or Paul refutes what you just spouted.

https://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2023/1/1/23532574/a-booker-less-phoenix-suns-team-should-result-higher-ayton-production-potential-all-star-selection

You can't pass the ball to yourself. Dude checked out when Monty refused to change his offense, which sucked and resulted in this team losing in the post-season.

But keep crying my man, I'm sure this obsession you have with Ayton's mental state and many sins will take you far in life.

Do they?

Ayton's Jan 2023 splits (Book missed the whole month and CP for several games too):

18/12/3 counting stats, barely upping his counting stats even with the higher usage (28%) and almost 17FGAs a game. What do you call a guy who needs 17 shots to get 18 points? hmm.

Then you look at his efficiency, which went into the toilet that month:

47% FG and 68% FT for 50% TS from a center!

and you can't say it's just because the surrounding cast was so bad because of the injuries. Mikal during that same timespan upped his game significantly, because he actually developed more of his skills since coming into the league while Ayton has basically been the same guy offensively the whole time. He isn't Dominayton anything in this league.

[Sunlight]

If Booker gets injured, it doesn't mean more points for Ayton because the Suns(Moronty) style of play doesn't support it.

[Bogyo]

Too much about Ayton in here. Can a mod change the Ayton thread to read "Come one and all to praise or **** on Deandre Ayton"!!! Pre-season starts in like 3 days, we have tons of interviews, practice footage, hype for the season like you wouldnt believe but all that happens here is the last 10+ pages being 95% Deandre god damn Ayton. I wish him well but **** him.

Amen!

[bwoolf2]

Too much about Ayton in here. Can a mod change the Ayton thread to read "Come one and all to praise or **** on Deandre Ayton"!!! Pre-season starts in like 3 days, we have tons of interviews, practice footage, hype for the season like you wouldnt believe but all that happens here is the last 10+ pages being 95% Deandre god damn Ayton. I wish him well but **** him.

Amen!

Honestly this has some how become an Ayton forum and not a Suns forum I don't get it. Weird

[enigmatics]

Too much about Ayton in here. Can a mod change the Ayton thread to read "Come one and all to praise or **** on Deandre Ayton"!!! Pre-season starts in like 3 days, we have tons of interviews, practice footage, hype for the season like you wouldnt believe but all that happens here is the last 10+ pages being 95% Deandre god damn Ayton. I wish him well but **** him.

Amen!

Honestly this has some how become an Ayton forum and not a Suns forum I don't get it. Weird

In all fairness - there's not much to discuss until we've seen this new iteration of the squad actually playing.

[enigmatics]

this is while Mikal was greatly stepping up and developing himself as a primary option (compare January numbers for both guys). This is why I am skeptical that DA will blossom in the same way that Bridges did. There was opportunity for him to take advantage of increased usage, but he didn't succeed.

Different skillset. One guy developed his handles to the point where he can create almost anywhere on the court while the other is still on the jab step into a jump shoot routine from 2019. In today's NBA, if you can't confidently put the ball on the floor without creating a turnover, you're just going to have to be reliant on others to set you up or take whatever jump shot or put back opportunities you get.

which is why Ayton's value is inevitably going to be limited anyway, and trading him away for a better outside shooter with better handles and passing at the cost of finishing around the rim isn't necessarily as bad as a move than people say.

I have been thinking of Nurkic in terms of like a Vlade Divac or Brad Miller kind of guy in those 00s Sacramento teams that had Bibby and Webber, and those teams were a couple of bad calls away from probably winning the title at least once. If healthy, Nurk can definitely play that kind of role, probably even better.

Buh buh buh bingo!

Glad I'm not alone on this and someone else can see it too. Trying to compare Nurk to Ayton in a 1:1 fashion is a complete waste of time. They have two totally difference skill sets, not to mention one is about to take those skillsets to a team that has no pedigree whatsoever - the other (Nurk) is now going to be playing with KD, Book, Beal, and a litany of skilled 3pt shooters. Having the five spot be able to facilitate the offense is going to open things up in ways Suns fans have not seen.

[sunsbum]

What’s not to get about conversation around the most polarizing player in suns history?

Edit:Some of you still talk about Haliburton every chance you get and the dude never even put on a suns jersey. I won’t even bring up the Jalen smith fans that quietly tucked their jerseys in the hope chest down in the basment.

[sunsbum]

What’s not to get about conversation around the most polarizing player in suns history? Edit:Some of you still talk about Haliburton every chance you get and the dude never even put on a suns jersey. I won’t even bring up the Jalen smith fans that quietly tucked their jerseys in the hope chest down in the basment.

[WeekapaugGroove]

If Booker gets injured, it doesn't mean more points for Ayton because the Suns(Moronty) style of play doesn't support it.

**** I think Monty actually ran too damn much O in the post and mid range, two places DA wants to play.

Mike Ds brother had a good rant about this a couple years ago.

https://x.com/ByCraigMeyer/status/814343009244483585?s=20

Sent from my SM-F731U using RealGM mobile app

[spanishninja]

If Booker gets injured, it doesn't mean more points for Ayton because the Suns(Moronty) style of play doesn't support it.

what do you mean by this? in January while Book was out the whole month, Ayton had 3.5 extra FGAs a game compared to the season as a whole. The trouble is his efficiency sank with the increased usage (which is what will happen in Portland) and that's why he ended up still averaging only 18 PPG that month.

and if your argument is that Monty needed to prioritize getting HIM more touches in particular compared to everybody else, then I ask...why? You don't prioritize a finisher over playmakers for touches. This isn't the 90s when forcefeeding a guy down low is the best option on offense. Bigs like Giannis, Embiid, Jokic even Sabonis don't need you to "feed" them to produce. Billups won't be doing that for him either.

[sunsbum]

If Booker gets injured, it doesn't mean more points for Ayton because the Suns(Moronty) style of play doesn't support it.

what do you mean by this? in January while Book was out the whole month, Ayton had 3.5 extra FGAs a game compared to the season as a whole. The trouble is his efficiency sank with the increased usage (which is what will happen in Portland) and that's why he ended up still averaging only 18 PPG that month.

and if your argument is that Monty needed to prioritize getting HIM more touches in particular compared to everybody else, then I ask...why? You don't prioritize a finisher over playmakers for touches. This isn't the 90s when forcefeeding a guy down low is the best option on offense. Bigs like Giannis, Embiid, Jokic even Sabonis don't need you to "feed" them to produce. Billups won't be doing that for him either.

The FG% dropped probably because the defense was key'd in on him with book being out I'd imagine. I never really thought about it but it will be interesting to see Ayton play a full season with out the gravity of Paul and Booker. People keep blaming them for the style of offense that wasn't conducive to DA's style of play but how much credit are we not giving them for things like pulling their defenders away from him etc.

[Slim Charless]

What’s not to get about conversation around the most polarizing player in suns history?

Edit:Some of you still talk about Haliburton every chance you get and the dude never even put on a suns jersey. I won’t even bring up the Jalen smith fans that quietly tucked their jerseys in the hope chest down in the basment.

"wHy Do pEoPle kEeP cAlLiNg mE oUt aBoUt mY AytoN obSesSioN?!?!11?1!!

"iTz NoT fairZ!!!!1!1"





Calm down the whining little one, and maybe talk about Suns related topics. That, or go do more filthy stuff to pigs.

[spanishninja]

If Booker gets injured, it doesn't mean more points for Ayton because the Suns(Moronty) style of play doesn't support it.

what do you mean by this? in January while Book was out the whole month, Ayton had 3.5 extra FGAs a game compared to the season as a whole. The trouble is his efficiency sank with the increased usage (which is what will happen in Portland) and that's why he ended up still averaging only 18 PPG that month.

and if your argument is that Monty needed to prioritize getting HIM more touches in particular compared to everybody else, then I ask...why? You don't prioritize a finisher over playmakers for touches. This isn't the 90s when forcefeeding a guy down low is the best option on offense. Bigs like Giannis, Embiid, Jokic even Sabonis don't need you to "feed" them to produce. Billups won't be doing that for him either.

The FG% dropped probably because the defense was key'd in on him with book being out I'd imagine. I never really thought about it but it will be interesting to see Ayton play a full season with out the gravity of Paul and Booker. People keep blaming them for the style of offense that wasn't conducive to DA's style of play but how much credit are we not giving them for things like pulling their defenders away from him etc.

yeah that will be interesting. time will tell whether DA was hurt by, or actually benefited from, playing around our stars.