Strictly Passin: Jason Kidd or Steve Nash

[mdonnelly1989]

Better Passer

My top 10 passers which includes a combination of accuracy, vision, zip and touch.

1. Magic Johnson 100 / 100
2. Steve Nash 99 / 100
3. Jason Kidd 99 / 100
4. John Stockton 99 / 100
5. Nikola Jokic 99 / 100
6. Lebron James 98 / 100
7. Larry Bird 98 / 100
8. Chris Paul 97 / 100
9. Bob Cousy 97 / 100
10. Rajon Rondo 97 / 100

H/M:
Isiah Thomas 97 / 100,
Ricky Rubio 97 / 100,
Oscar Robertson 97 / 100
Mark Jackson 96 / 100
James Harden 96 / 100
Andre Miller 96 / 100.

[Dominator83]

Kids was a better pure passer. Nash was a better shooter

[SlovenianDragon]

Kids was a better pure passer. Nash was a better shooter

Na steve nashes shooting is what made him such a lethal passer...only thing kidd did better was defense...

[sikma42]

Kidd should be over Magic as well imo.


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[cupcakesnake]

It's hard to separate passing from other skills that enhance passing (driving, scoring, size) so I don't know how "strict" we can be about passing here.

Peak Nash was a much more dangerous passer than Kidd because of how aggressive he was. Nash would force defenses to give up something good, and then hit them with a kill shot pass. Kidd showed his passing flair and vision mostly in the transition. In half-court, Kidd wasn't really tearing the defense up off the dribble (mostly because no one was afraid of his shooting or driving game), so he wasn't creating the same opportunities. Nash was a scary passing monster in the half court or in transition. Nash could get wherever he wanted to go on the court, threaten the defense, freeze the defense, and generate a rim attempt or an open 3. Nash was also ridiculously accurate with his passes, finding shooting pockets and knowing how and where guys like to catch it.

The only advantage I can see for Kidd as a passer is his size.

I have Nash, Magic, Bird, and Jokic as the best passers ever. Kidd is still amazing but I have him in the next tier.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I am not sure how you can separate passing from everything else once you get to that level.
1) "passing" is too generic as a term, there are guys who excel at different reads and different kind of passes in different ways (manipulation, speed, timing, height, precision, angles)
2) in particular for the very elite guys, so much is blended with the rest of your game that you can't really separate what is what. For instance, your scoring can open so many opportunities, as your ballhandling. And the threat of a pass will help both as well (think how Jokic can take so many dribbles in the post without being doubled, becoming unstoppable)

[cupcakesnake]

Kidd should be over Magic as well imo.


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Absolutely no chance. Make the case.
Never seen anyone get the ball so consistently into the most threatening spots on the court like Magic could. The second the defense gave something up, BOOM Magic got the ball wherever it needed to be. It's not even about the crazy assist numbers with Magic, it's that every pass was so purposeful and damaging against the defense.

[sikma42]

Kidd should be over Magic as well imo.


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Absolutely no chance. Make the case.
Never seen anyone get the ball so consistently into the most threatening spots on the court like Magic could. The second the defense gave something up, BOOM Magic got the ball wherever it needed to be. It's not even about the crazy assist numbers with Magic, it's that every pass was so purposeful and damaging against the defense.

Kidd had the best court vision I’ve ever seen and the most complete understanding of basketball. He saw .5 pass ahead more than Magic or any other player I’ve seen. I think he understood how to be extremely effective as a passer in any situation (he set screens or navigate players to set up a play 3 passes ahead). Magic was also good at this but I think Kidd was half a step better.

In order to get into court vision it would really take going through a lot of tape. I’ll try later this weekend.

I think Nash is out of the conversation due to his play in Dallas and LA. He wasn’t a savant in Dallas and I’m sure Magic or Kidd’s passing would have shown much more. Nash is a great pick and roll player, but there is more to passing than pick and roll.


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[Yoshun]

This thread seems to come up every other week.

[zero rings]

Kidd should be over Magic as well imo.


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Absolutely no chance. Make the case.
Never seen anyone get the ball so consistently into the most threatening spots on the court like Magic could. The second the defense gave something up, BOOM Magic got the ball wherever it needed to be. It's not even about the crazy assist numbers with Magic, it's that every pass was so purposeful and damaging against the defense.

Kidd had the best court vision I’ve ever seen and the most complete understanding of basketball. He saw .5 pass ahead more than Magic or any other player I’ve seen. I think he understood how to be extremely effective as a passer in any situation (he set screens or navigate players to set up a play 3 passes ahead). Magic was also good at this but I think Kidd was half a step better.

In order to get into court vision it would really take going through a lot of tape. I’ll try later this weekend.

I think Nash is out of the conversation due to his play in Dallas and LA. He wasn’t a savant in Dallas and I’m sure Magic or Kidd’s passing would have shown much more. Nash is a great pick and roll player, but there is more to passing than pick and roll.


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I don't know how Kidd can be considered a better passer when he flat out didn't create as many good looks. Magic and Nash could bend the defense with their scoring in a way Kidd couldn't, and they were serving up layups all game because of it.

[sikma42]

Absolutely no chance. Make the case.
Never seen anyone get the ball so consistently into the most threatening spots on the court like Magic could. The second the defense gave something up, BOOM Magic got the ball wherever it needed to be. It's not even about the crazy assist numbers with Magic, it's that every pass was so purposeful and damaging against the defense.

Kidd had the best court vision I’ve ever seen and the most complete understanding of basketball. He saw .5 pass ahead more than Magic or any other player I’ve seen. I think he understood how to be extremely effective as a passer in any situation (he set screens or navigate players to set up a play 3 passes ahead). Magic was also good at this but I think Kidd was half a step better.

In order to get into court vision it would really take going through a lot of tape. I’ll try later this weekend.

I think Nash is out of the conversation due to his play in Dallas and LA. He wasn’t a savant in Dallas and I’m sure Magic or Kidd’s passing would have shown much more. Nash is a great pick and roll player, but there is more to passing than pick and roll.


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I don't know how Kidd can be considered a better passer when he flat out didn't create as many good looks. Magic and Nash could bend the defense with their scoring in a way Kidd couldn't, and they were serving up layups all game because of it.

Outside of the offense in Phx, Nash wasn’t doing that. He also looked like a deer in headlights in LA. Kidd looks like a savant in every single offense he has played in, including team USA.

If Lebron wanted to, he could have stepped into Nash’s spot in Phx and been a “better” passer if we are looking at using their scoring talents to create opportunities.


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[cupcakesnake]

Kidd should be over Magic as well imo.


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Absolutely no chance. Make the case.
Never seen anyone get the ball so consistently into the most threatening spots on the court like Magic could. The second the defense gave something up, BOOM Magic got the ball wherever it needed to be. It's not even about the crazy assist numbers with Magic, it's that every pass was so purposeful and damaging against the defense.

Kidd had the best court vision I’ve ever seen and the most complete understanding of basketball. He saw .5 pass ahead more than Magic or any other player I’ve seen. I think he understood how to be extremely effective as a passer in any situation (he set screens or navigate players to set up a play 3 passes ahead). Magic was also good at this but I think Kidd was half a step better.

In order to get into court vision it would really take going through a lot of tape. I’ll try later this weekend.

I think Nash is out of the conversation due to his play in Dallas and LA. He wasn’t a savant in Dallas and I’m sure Magic or Kidd’s passing would have shown much more. Nash is a great pick and roll player, but there is more to passing than pick and roll.


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You're right that any seriously conclusive assessment of passing has to be film based. What kinds of passes can they throw, in what situations, how often did they miss passes, etc.

I do agree with you that Kidd's vision is second to none. He combined that with really quick hands. I just think his other limitations prevented his passing game from being that dangerous. His inability to threaten defenses made him more "crafty" than dangerous in the half court. If there was an opening, Kidd would hit that opening, but he didn't create openings on his own like Magic, Nash, or Jokic.

Taking Nash "out of the conversation" is not something I agree with obviously. Sure he didn't get to dominate the ball in Dallas, but he was still a monstrously efficient passer in his role. He has 4 really good passing season in Dallas, and then 8 years of passing dominance in Phoenix. Sure he doesn't have Kidd's career longevity, but I don't think that's the question here (though you can value that as heavily as you want). I also disagree strongly with you labelling Nash as a pure pick & roll point guard. Yes Phoenix ran a lot of pick & roll to best utilize Amar'e, but there's endless footage of Nash creating assist opportunities out of all kinds of play types. Amar'e missed plenty of time with injury and Nash never slowed down a bit. Nash could probe the defense out of isolation all day, "Nash" the baseline, find cutters and open 3s. Yes his pick & roll work was as good as it gets, but there's no evidence that he was overly reliant on that or restricted by it.

[Mr B]

Kids was a better pure passer. Nash was a better shooter

Na steve nashes shooting is what made him such a lethal passer...only thing kidd did better was defense...

Defense, rebounding, and passing Kidd was far superior to Nash.

[cupcakesnake]

Outside of the offense in Phx, Nash wasn’t doing that. He also looked like a deer in headlights in LA. Kidd looks like a savant in every single offense he has played in, including team USA.

If Lebron wanted to, he could have stepped into Nash’s spot in Phx and been a “better” passer if we are looking at using their scoring talents to create opportunities.

I can't really take these things seriously. Nash's body broke down in LA and you're acting like his struggles were based on... fear? being overwhelmed? At age 39... like sure it would have been cool if Nash had an amazing run in LA but instead that whole team was hurt (Kobe, Nash, Dwight). Using this as useful Nash analysis feels disigenuous. It's like saying Shaq sucked because of his time in Boston or Hakeem wasn't a good defender because of how he looked in Toronto.

You underrate Nash's Dallas tenure. He didn't get the ball in his hands as much because those Mavs liked to load up on guys who did stuff with the ball (Dirk, Finley, Van Exel, the Twans, etc.)... Nash did some great work in Dallas, but sometimes had to get out of the way.

Nash was also an incredible passer for team Canada if you're going to cite Kidd's team USA playing a smaller role on a stacked team.

[NZB2323]

Why is Stockton 4th? He has 3,715 more assists than Kidd and 5,471 more assists than Nash.

[Frank Dux]

I gotta go with Nash. Those Phoenix teams were offensive juggernauts due to Nash’s passing.

[sikma42]

Kids was a better pure passer. Nash was a better shooter

Na steve nashes shooting is what made him such a lethal passer...only thing kidd did better was defense...

Defense, rebounding, and passing Kidd was far superior to Nash.

Also basketball intelligence, especially controlling tempo and managing games.


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[DC_Melo]

Some of their career passing metrics are eerily close…

Assists
Nash: 8.5
Kidd: 8.7

Turnovers
Nash: 2.9
Kidd: 2.9

A/TO
Nash: 2.93
Kidd 3.0

I’m sure there’s much deeper analysis you can dive into for passing metrics, but from watching them play, I give Nash the edge.

Both were excellent on the break, but in the halfcourt is where Nash had the advantage IMO. In halfcourt sets, the majority of kidd’s assists appear to come off set plays and dribble penetration kick outs. Which he did very well. But Anytime he drove the line, you could count on a shot or kick out.

Nash did much of the same; but also added an element of creativity that Kidd didn’t have. He loved to probe the defense for a quick shot or assist before going into a set (a key component of SSOL offense), and had the dribble discipline to drive the lane and keep his dribble alive if he didn’t like his shooting and passing options. This caused the already collapsing defenses to become further disorganized, often resulting in a delayed pass to a wide open teammate.

Nash was able to manipulate defenses into giving him better passing lanes when the initial options weren’t good. He also had better hands, which allowed him to pass the ball at almost any point in his dribble, with either hand.

Of course, that’s just what I remember seeing. I don’t have any data to support those observations

[GSWFan1994]

This thread seems to come up every other week.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Why is Stockton 4th? He has 3,715 more assists than Kidd and 5,471 more assists than Nash.

because who cares about who has the most career assists?