OT: NFL 23-24 Season thread: Football's back

[DOT]

In positive news:

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[GONYK]

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I wouldn't wish playing behind this line on anyone.

The job is the job, and everyone signs up for it knowing the risks, but I'd have a hard time looking Daniel Jones in the eye after that injury if I was on the coaching staff.

[Ghetto Gospel]

if i'm understanding this correctly, if we were to cut daniel jones after year 2, we'd have 22.2m of dead cap money? and if after year 3, we'd have 11.1m of dead cap money?

i guess that's the penance we pay for him having a 15m cap this year?

is it just me or is it crazy that we made the decision to frontload all the good cap benefits early on for a team that is clearly at least a few years away? it makes sense for actually good teams like the chiefs or eagles to do it with mahomes and hurts but us? lol?



https://overthecap.com/player/daniel-jones/7797

Don't we have about 57m in cap space next season?

57m in cap space doesn't even come close to fixing the issues on this team

[Ghetto Gospel]

coming off a season we one a road playoff game...and giving us the flexibility to franchise Saquon Barkley. I don't people realize how bad a cap position Gettleman left us in. Scheon has clearly had his faults (especially this year) and some of his draft picks but this idea he didn't come into a **** situation.

I think we all got a little giddy because this team clearly overachieved but our roster talent and cap was sh*t and signing DJ ideally helped us add more plays like Barkley (tag), Okereke, take on Wallers $ in a trade...ect. If they didn't sign DJ to a long term deal the other adds wouldn't have happend.

Now that is monday morning QBing because if you told me this season would go like this I'm sure we would have handled the cap a bit differently.

not really monday morning QBing, b/c i did note during this offseason that the 2022-2023 season only went as well as the way it did because we had the easiest schedule in the league. i did note that 40m for daniel jones is an overpay. realistically, even the most optimistic of giants fans knew we would be at least a few years away so it never made sense anyway to front load the benefit of the cap space anyway.

at the end of the day, some of the fans did get giddy, but ultimately it is the job of the GM to have a good head on his shoulders and see that last season was a bit of a fluke. our over/under on win totals per vegas was 6.5 after a 9 win season where we won a playoff game. though i guess no one could have guessed we would be THIS bad being bad shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. missing the playoffs and being not good was definitely more likely than not for this season imo

no one had it this bad. I just don't get some people though. We were one of the last 8 teams remaining. Our QB had a good year in the first year a new system. There were alternatives to Jones this offseason. And they legit thought he took steps in the right direction and he did. That can't be argued.

If you want a competent QB and your aren't at the top of the draft with a rookie scale QB you have to pay for it.

Jones has been absolutely beat up all season. That has an effect on his play, it has too (when you have no trust in your oline even when you have time when its few and far between your clock is sped up. I'm not saying he is completely absolved because he makes his bad plays but man how can we even evaluate this offense the way the oline is playing. We are talking historic levels of ineptness right now.

none of that explains why we would want to so heavily backload this deal when we are years away from competing. don't get it twisted, the post wasn't an attack on daniel jones nearly as much as it was one on schoen.

if the earliest we would be truly competitive would be 3 years down the line, why slam the hardest cap numbers into those years? why not front load the deal, ease the cap hit in the later years when we would be competitive? it's embarrassing that even knicks management got the right idea with the brunson deal and we immediately tilt into win now

[mpharris36]

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I wouldn't wish playing behind this line on anyone.

The job is the job, and everyone signs up for it knowing the risks, but I'd have a hard time looking Daniel Jones in the eye after that injury if I was on the coaching staff.

nope, and that is why I say your really can't evaluate his play. Tory Aikman said it, Kurt Warner is saying it. You take enough of those shots even when there isn't pressure your clock is already f*cked up.

Its crazy that we have been saying it, it was only a matter of time with the way they were playing that someone was going to get hurt. You can only take so many free shots. If Tyrod starts on Sunday and AT is back...I would bet Taylor doesn't make it through the game healthy.

[mpharris36]

not really monday morning QBing, b/c i did note during this offseason that the 2022-2023 season only went as well as the way it did because we had the easiest schedule in the league. i did note that 40m for daniel jones is an overpay. realistically, even the most optimistic of giants fans knew we would be at least a few years away so it never made sense anyway to front load the benefit of the cap space anyway.

at the end of the day, some of the fans did get giddy, but ultimately it is the job of the GM to have a good head on his shoulders and see that last season was a bit of a fluke. our over/under on win totals per vegas was 6.5 after a 9 win season where we won a playoff game. though i guess no one could have guessed we would be THIS bad being bad shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone. missing the playoffs and being not good was definitely more likely than not for this season imo

no one had it this bad. I just don't get some people though. We were one of the last 8 teams remaining. Our QB had a good year in the first year a new system. There were alternatives to Jones this offseason. And they legit thought he took steps in the right direction and he did. That can't be argued.

If you want a competent QB and your aren't at the top of the draft with a rookie scale QB you have to pay for it.

Jones has been absolutely beat up all season. That has an effect on his play, it has too (when you have no trust in your oline even when you have time when its few and far between your clock is sped up. I'm not saying he is completely absolved because he makes his bad plays but man how can we even evaluate this offense the way the oline is playing. We are talking historic levels of ineptness right now.

none of that explains why we would want to so heavily backload this deal when we are years away from competing. don't get it twisted, the post wasn't an attack on daniel jones nearly as much as it was one on schoen.

if the earliest we would be truly competitive would be 3 years down the line, why slam the hardest cap numbers into those years? why not front load the deal, ease the cap hit in the later years when we would be competitive? it's embarrassing that even knicks management got the right idea with the brunson deal and we immediately tilt into win now

The hardest cap years aren't in years 3 and 4...its in year 2.

In year 1 they needed to bring the cap # down so they could franchise tag Barkley and add some players to the team because KG who they had to cut held a 15 MM dead cap #. Year 3 and 4 are roughly 20 MM in dead cap and 10 MM in dead cap (which is nothing if you really wanted to move on from him).

They aren't moving on from him next year. 20 MM isn't some crazy cap hit for a QB to move on from. Kenny Golladay has nearly a 15 MM cap hit this year we are managing.

[GONYK]

Read on Twitter

I wouldn't wish playing behind this line on anyone.

The job is the job, and everyone signs up for it knowing the risks, but I'd have a hard time looking Daniel Jones in the eye after that injury if I was on the coaching staff.

nope, and that is why I say your really can't evaluate his play. Troy Aikman said it, Kurt Warner is saying it. You take enough of those shots even when there isn't pressure your clock is already f*cked up.

Its crazy that we have been saying it, it was only a matter of time with the way they were playing that someone was going to get hurt. You can only take so many free shots. If Tyrod starts on Sunday and AT isn't back...I would bet Taylor doesn't make it through the game healthy.

The Giants are now on pace to give up 102 sacks this season.

[mpharris36]

I'm gonna preface this by saying our 2022 draft class sucks (and 2023 isn't off to a great start despite Anton Harrison being decent), but the Seahawks got 2 starting tackles with picks 9 and 72, y'all took 2 OL at 7 and 67

Hindsight is 2020, but you can't afford to whiff like that.

you can't whiff like that but none of it makes sense. If anything Neal was considered the safest pick because he played 3 positions well in the top conference against the best talent...when Charles Cross who many thought had highest ceiling in terms of pass pro (was in an Air Raid offense) and they didn't run a lot of NFL type stuff and there were legit concerns about his strength and ability to hold up in the run game.

Hindsight is 20/20 like you said but I don't think you would have found a single scout/decision maker that would have take Charles Cross over Evan Neal at the time.

[Strick]

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Not a Jones fan as a player but I do respect his toughness and how he handles himself for the most part. Sad stuff

Bobby Johnson still being employed is beyond me. The guy is beyond bad. I’m really at a loss for words at how bad of a coach he truly is

[DOT]

Hindsight is 20/20 like you said but I don't think you would have found a single scout/decision maker that would have take Charles Cross over Evan Neal at the time.

I mean, I don't think many people had Ekwonu over Neal either, but that's what ended up happening

Hard to say what scouts/GMs are thinking around draft time, especially since a lot of our perception is biased due to our personal takes on guys.

[Ghetto Gospel]

no one had it this bad. I just don't get some people though. We were one of the last 8 teams remaining. Our QB had a good year in the first year a new system. There were alternatives to Jones this offseason. And they legit thought he took steps in the right direction and he did. That can't be argued.

If you want a competent QB and your aren't at the top of the draft with a rookie scale QB you have to pay for it.

Jones has been absolutely beat up all season. That has an effect on his play, it has too (when you have no trust in your oline even when you have time when its few and far between your clock is sped up. I'm not saying he is completely absolved because he makes his bad plays but man how can we even evaluate this offense the way the oline is playing. We are talking historic levels of ineptness right now.

none of that explains why we would want to so heavily backload this deal when we are years away from competing. don't get it twisted, the post wasn't an attack on daniel jones nearly as much as it was one on schoen.

if the earliest we would be truly competitive would be 3 years down the line, why slam the hardest cap numbers into those years? why not front load the deal, ease the cap hit in the later years when we would be competitive? it's embarrassing that even knicks management got the right idea with the brunson deal and we immediately tilt into win now

The hardest cap years aren't in years 3 and 4...its in year 2.

In year 1 they needed to bring the cap # down so they could franchise tag Barkley and add some players to the team because KG who they had to cut held a 15 MM dead cap #. Year 3 and 4 are roughly 20 MM in dead cap and 10 MM in dead cap (which is nothing if you really wanted to move on from him).

They aren't moving on from him next year. 20 MM isn't some crazy cap hit for a QB to move on from. Kenny Golladay has nearly a 15 MM cap hit this year we are managing.

here's the thing though, we didn't need to franchise tag barkley. we know what it is with RBs and more specifically him and the injuries. we should be looking long-term not short-term. for rb's, it is what it is, it's 1 or 2 years left of high level production left for him. that isn't our window.

daniel jones hardest cap year is year 4..? 58.6m

okay golladay has a 15m cap hit right now. really how well are we managing it? as well as we'd manage a 22m cap hit in year 3? a 11m cap hit year 4? are we going to look forward 2 years from now and say yeah schoen **** it all up for us the same way we did gettleman? it still doesn't make sense, even the knicks are more competent and forward thinking than this dumb org

[GONYK]

I'm gonna preface this by saying our 2022 draft class sucks (and 2023 isn't off to a great start despite Anton Harrison being decent), but the Seahawks got 2 starting tackles with picks 9 and 72, y'all took 2 OL at 7 and 67

Hindsight is 2020, but you can't afford to whiff like that.

you can't whiff like that but none of it makes sense. If anything Neal was considered the safest pick because he played 3 positions well in the top conference against the best talent...when Charles Cross who many thought had highest ceiling in terms of pass pro (was in an Air Raid offense) and they didn't run a lot of NFL type stuff and there were legit concerns about his strength and ability to hold up in the run game.

Hindsight is 20/20 like you said but I don't think you would have found a single scout/decision maker that would have take Charles Cross over Evan Neal at the time.

The consensus was that Icky was the best run blocker, Cross was the best pass blocker and Neal was the most well-rounded.

Schoen himself has basically said that Icky was his preference, so there was no shot at taking Cross at 7.

Should Joe have taken Ekwonu at 5 and hope KT falls to 7? That's a worthwhile question, but the NFL consensus was low on Cross and much higher on Neal. Evan was talked about as the potential #1 pick at certain points in the draft cycle.

The larger issue is that it is so difficult to evaluate linemen at the college level.

[mpharris36]

none of that explains why we would want to so heavily backload this deal when we are years away from competing. don't get it twisted, the post wasn't an attack on daniel jones nearly as much as it was one on schoen.

if the earliest we would be truly competitive would be 3 years down the line, why slam the hardest cap numbers into those years? why not front load the deal, ease the cap hit in the later years when we would be competitive? it's embarrassing that even knicks management got the right idea with the brunson deal and we immediately tilt into win now

The hardest cap years aren't in years 3 and 4...its in year 2.

In year 1 they needed to bring the cap # down so they could franchise tag Barkley and add some players to the team because KG who they had to cut held a 15 MM dead cap #. Year 3 and 4 are roughly 20 MM in dead cap and 10 MM in dead cap (which is nothing if you really wanted to move on from him).

They aren't moving on from him next year. 20 MM isn't some crazy cap hit for a QB to move on from. Kenny Golladay has nearly a 15 MM cap hit this year we are managing.

here's the thing though, we didn't need to franchise tag barkley. we know what it is with RBs and more specifically him and the injuries. we should be looking long-term not short-term. for rb's, it is what it is, it's 1 or 2 years left of high level production left for him. that isn't our window.

daniel jones hardest cap year is year 4..? 58.6m

okay golladay has a 15m cap hit right now. really how well are we managing it? as well as we'd manage a 22m cap hit in year 3? a 11m cap hit year 4? are we going to look forward 2 years from now and say yeah schoen **** it all up for us the same way we did gettleman? it still doesn't make sense, even the knicks are more competent and forward thinking than this dumb org

why are you worried about the year 4 cap # though. His dead money for year 4 is 11 MM which is peanuts. They can easily add an extension or void years to bring that down if they were really in a pinch contract wise. I wouldn't worry anything about a raw cap figure 3 years down the road in football.

His dead money is all they are on the books for.

And who didn't want to bring back Barkley? For a team devoid of offensive talent he was the best skill position player and a big part of the offense...sure you can't pay RB's long term but what other options did you want...just move of from Barkley and then let Daniel Jones play with no one on the offensive side of the ball with talent?

They signed DJ long term so they could free up money short term to continue to build on last year. After a playoff win on the road I don't see how you just say last year was a complete fluke and tear it all down. That was never an option. Now this year has been a disaster and we expected some levels of regression but man you can't run a team like that...hey we won 9 games and won a road playoff game but lets tear it down and move on from everyone that got us there? That was never going to be the plan.

[MrDollarBills]

if i'm understanding this correctly, if we were to cut daniel jones after year 2, we'd have 22.2m of dead cap money? and if after year 3, we'd have 11.1m of dead cap money?

i guess that's the penance we pay for him having a 15m cap this year?

is it just me or is it crazy that we made the decision to frontload all the good cap benefits early on for a team that is clearly at least a few years away? it makes sense for actually good teams like the chiefs or eagles to do it with mahomes and hurts but us? lol?



https://overthecap.com/player/daniel-jones/7797

Don't we have about 57m in cap space next season?

57m in cap space doesn't even come close to fixing the issues on this team

Absolutely correct.

First of all, rebuilding the offensive line will have to come through the draft, not free agency...and so far, outside of JMS, I have concerns that Schoen doesn't know how to scout and evaluate these players. All of his lineman suck balls except for JMS, who is a rookie and is still pending evaluation.

[mpharris36]

I'm gonna preface this by saying our 2022 draft class sucks (and 2023 isn't off to a great start despite Anton Harrison being decent), but the Seahawks got 2 starting tackles with picks 9 and 72, y'all took 2 OL at 7 and 67

Hindsight is 2020, but you can't afford to whiff like that.

you can't whiff like that but none of it makes sense. If anything Neal was considered the safest pick because he played 3 positions well in the top conference against the best talent...when Charles Cross who many thought had highest ceiling in terms of pass pro (was in an Air Raid offense) and they didn't run a lot of NFL type stuff and there were legit concerns about his strength and ability to hold up in the run game.

Hindsight is 20/20 like you said but I don't think you would have found a single scout/decision maker that would have take Charles Cross over Evan Neal at the time.

The consensus was that Icky was the best run blocker, Cross was the best pass blocker and Neal was the most well-rounded.

Schoen himself has basically said that Icky was his preference, so there was no shot at taking Cross at 7.

Should Joe have taken Ekwonu at 5 and hope KT falls to 7? That's a worthwhile question, but the NFL consensus was low on Cross and much higher on Neal. Evan was talked about as the potential #1 pick at certain points in the draft cycle.

To be fair Ekwonu hasn't looked very good either from what I have seen/read, The OL position just seems so difficult to get right. You just can't throw top draft choices at them and assume it will get fixed. There needs to be a total revamp of the system/scheme/coaching.

Neal might have to kick down to guard and might be a very valuable guard. Its not idea but then you would need to have to find a RT again. And most importantly you need to have AT back healthy...he shifts everything...you don't have to chip on his side you don't have to slide the protection to his side because he has the back side of Daniel Jones covered...it changed everything we wanted to do.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Don't we have about 57m in cap space next season?

57m in cap space doesn't even come close to fixing the issues on this team

Absolutely correct.

First of all, rebuilding the offensive line will have to come through the draft, not free agency...and so far, outside of JMS, I have concerns that Schoen doesn't know how to scout and evaluate these players. All of his lineman suck balls except for JMS, who is a rookie and is still pending evaluation.

i mean it doesn't have to. it depends.

the chiefs offensive line right now features 2 OTs that they just got this year, donovan smith and jawaan taylor and an OG they got a couple years back from the patriots, joe thuney. previously before donovan smith and jawaan taylor it was andrew wylie (free agent) and orlando brown (trade). the chiefs seem to be doing fine with only 2 drafted OL.

[MrDollarBills]

Read on Twitter

Not a Jones fan as a player but I do respect his toughness and how he handles himself for the most part. Sad stuff

Bobby Johnson still being employed is beyond me. The guy is beyond bad. I’m really at a loss for words at how bad of a coach he truly is

Props to Ezeudu for owning his error, and to Danny for still being a supportive teammate after the fact. Hopefully this experience pushes Ezeudu to becoming a better lineman as his career goes on.

This situation is just messed up.

[Ghetto Gospel]

The hardest cap years aren't in years 3 and 4...its in year 2.

In year 1 they needed to bring the cap # down so they could franchise tag Barkley and add some players to the team because KG who they had to cut held a 15 MM dead cap #. Year 3 and 4 are roughly 20 MM in dead cap and 10 MM in dead cap (which is nothing if you really wanted to move on from him).

They aren't moving on from him next year. 20 MM isn't some crazy cap hit for a QB to move on from. Kenny Golladay has nearly a 15 MM cap hit this year we are managing.

here's the thing though, we didn't need to franchise tag barkley. we know what it is with RBs and more specifically him and the injuries. we should be looking long-term not short-term. for rb's, it is what it is, it's 1 or 2 years left of high level production left for him. that isn't our window.

daniel jones hardest cap year is year 4..? 58.6m

okay golladay has a 15m cap hit right now. really how well are we managing it? as well as we'd manage a 22m cap hit in year 3? a 11m cap hit year 4? are we going to look forward 2 years from now and say yeah schoen **** it all up for us the same way we did gettleman? it still doesn't make sense, even the knicks are more competent and forward thinking than this dumb org

why are you worried about the year 4 cap # though. His dead money for year 4 is 11 MM which is peanuts. They can easily add an extension or void years to bring that down if they were really in a pinch contract wise. I wouldn't worry anything about a raw cap figure 3 years down the road in football.

His dead money is all they are on the books for.

And who didn't want to bring back Barkley? For a team devoid of offensive talent he was the best skill position player and a big part of the offense...sure you can't pay RB's long term but what other options did you want...just move of from Barkley and then let Daniel Jones play with no one on the offensive side of the ball with talent?

They signed DJ long term so they could free up money short term to continue to build on last year. After a playoff win on the road I don't see how you just say last year was a complete fluke and tear it all down. That was never an option. Now this year has been a disaster and we expected some levels of regression but man you can't run a team like that...hey we won 9 games and won a road playoff game but lets tear it down and move on from everyone that got us there? That was never going to be the plan.

there were plenty of guys in the "RB's don't matter camp" that didn't want to or care if we brought back barkley. when you combine that with what was obviously a talent devoid roster yeah i think quite a number of us were comfortable taking it slow with a rebuild.

idk a lot of people saw last year as a fluke. they also saw the vikings as a fluke. did anyone truly believe the vikings were a 13 win team? you just have to think a little. it's the GM's JOB to see that we are not a good team. maybe it should have been the plan. this is just going to set us back even further

[mpharris36]

Schoen better pivot...no one expected this bad of an outcome to start the year...but you cant sit on your hands since the trade deadline happens bein a few weeks. We likely will be 1-7 or 2-6 (if we are lucky) at that point...you can't stand pat.

Barkley, Adoree Jackson, Leonard Williams, anyone with any sort of value that isn't in the long term plans needs to be traded for additional draft capital and you need to start prepping for the 2024 draft. I know it sucks to give up on a year that early but it has to be done as this situation has become untenable

[DOT]

This is supposed to be a good year for OL in the draft

Again, I don't do much scouting until the season is over, but I know the kid Fashanu from Penn State was supposed to be a top pick last year but decided to return to school, and I've heard Joe Alt is pretty good too, and it's supposed to be decently deep

Still hard to judge this far out, obviously.