Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[will]

He played 12 games last year without Fred and shot 39% from the floor. He had chances to create last year and he just couldn't.

So we're going to use that small sample size without Fred and determine that that's how he would have performed all year if he was handed the keys? And why is that some sort of indication that we were better off with Fred running the show? Fred actually shot 39% from the field for the whole season.

What kind of creation could last year's Scottie Barnes do? He couldn't score effectively at all from anywhere. And Scottie's 39% is worst because he doesn't shoot any 3s. Fred had a 54% TS and Scotties was 52% and was worst when Fred didn't play. Now if you're saying you wanted to force feed him touches and have him average like 19 8 on 48 TS% that's fine. But no increase in usage would've led to a more effective offense.

What I saw was a 2nd year kid who was fed up with him hogging the ball and playing selfish hoops. Did Scottish throw his toys out the pram?

Yeah.

That's what babies do.

What I saw was vv was absolute ass at playing any sort of team ball because he playing for his stats all season long.

[Reeko]

He played 12 games last year without Fred and shot 39% from the floor. He had chances to create last year and he just couldn't.

So we're going to use that small sample size without Fred and determine that that's how he would have performed all year if he was handed the keys? And why is that some sort of indication that we were better off with Fred running the show? Fred actually shot 39% from the field for the whole season.

What kind of creation could last year's Scottie Barnes do? He couldn't score effectively at all from anywhere. And Scottie's 39% is worst because he doesn't shoot any 3s. Fred had a 54% TS and Scotties was 52% and was worst when Fred didn't play. Now if you're saying you wanted to force feed him touches and have him average like 19 8 on 48 TS% that's fine. But no increase in usage would've led to a more effective offense.

Edit: I'll add some of Scottie's play-type stats for context.

PnR Ball Handler: 0.69 PPP 18th Percentile

Post-Up: 0.89 PPP 33rd Percentile

Isolation: 0.81 PPP 32nd Percentile

This combined with his non-existent shooting (32% from Mid-Range and awful 3 point shooting) made it really hard to build an effective offense with him being the lead guard.

I assume these are the possessions you wanted more of for him which he was pretty terrible at last year. I don't see how handing this player the keys made sense other than just for sheer volume + reps.

Yes reps, because even with Fred out there we were still bad. If we were winning I could have seen an argument for not giving him the reps because Fred was simply better. Fred's TS% is largely supported by his free throw shooting, which was really the only area that he shot well from, he shot 34% from 3 last season. Unless you just had no belief in Scottie's potential then there was really no reason not to support giving him a larger role last year.

[tsherkin]

Yes reps, because even with Fred out there we were still bad. If we were winning I could have seen an argument for not giving him the reps because Fred was simply better. Fred's TS% is largely supported by his free throw shooting, which was really the only area that he shot well from, he shot 34% from 3 last season. Unless you just had no belief in Scottie's potential then there was really no reason not to support giving him a larger role last year.

At the point where both were at last season, the difference means only so much.

Fred was at 93 TS+ and -4.1% rTS. Scottie was at 90 TS+ and -5.7% rTS. Both of them were oxygen thieves to our scoring efficiency. Both were below average at drawing fouls. Both were below average from 3 and neither showed much finishing in the middle. As you say, the main difference in efficiency is that Fred was (as ever) a very good FT shooter, while Scottie is a mediocre to acceptable FT shooter.

Given how poor both were, it would have made more sense to give Scottie more of a chance to grow and try things, for sure.

[Tha Cynic]

He played 12 games last year without Fred and shot 39% from the floor. He had chances to create last year and he just couldn't.

So we're going to use that small sample size without Fred and determine that that's how he would have performed all year if he was handed the keys? And why is that some sort of indication that we were better off with Fred running the show? Fred actually shot 39% from the field for the whole season.

What kind of creation could last year's Scottie Barnes do? He couldn't score effectively at all from anywhere. And Scottie's 39% is worst because he doesn't shoot any 3s. Fred had a 54% TS and Scotties was 52% and was worst when Fred didn't play. Now if you're saying you wanted to force feed him touches and have him average like 19 8 on 48 TS% that's fine. But no increase in usage would've led to a more effective offense.

Edit: I'll add some of Scottie's play-type stats for context.

PnR Ball Handler: 0.69 PPP 18th Percentile

Post-Up: 0.89 PPP 33rd Percentile

Isolation: 0.81 PPP 32nd Percentile

This combined with his non-existent shooting (32% from Mid-Range and awful 3 point shooting) made it really hard to build an effective offense with him being the lead guard. Other than sheer volume + reps I don't see how more of these possessions for Scottie would've been a more effective offense. Not that Fred was good last year (He wasnt) but Scottie was also pretty terrible in some areas and had some serious warts in his game last year that had nothing to do with Fred/Nurse/Siakam.

So we actually have posters defending the guy who had a 54% TS as someone who HAD to take those shots.

And then same posters saying the 2nd year guy who had a 52% TS in a FVV/Siakam-centric offense should not be given the opportunity because he hasn't shown anything. lol

What's even more funny is that this is in a system that is actually more catered to the veteran guard who shot 54% and he was still crap and we have posters defending him as if he deserved those "reps".

Meanwhile the same posters will take the young guy who clearly DID NOT get consistent opportunity in the offense to be a lead offensive player and use poor offensive stats to show why he should not be allowed to try to be a focal point on offense.

Apparently we will also ignore that players (especially those like Barnes who have shown that he gets better as the season goes on), may actually get better with more consistent reps.

Here's a thought? How about we take the fact that one player with consistent reps was crap, and the team was crap playing that way. How about you try something different with the guy you're investing the future on and let him try to see what he can do when given consistent run? This is the real world, not NBA 2k. Players do differently in different situations. This isn't a computer program that is stagnant. I mean, even for those who live in spreadsheets they should know that machine learning has been integrated for a reason.

[Clay Davis]

So we're going to use that small sample size without Fred and determine that that's how he would have performed all year if he was handed the keys? And why is that some sort of indication that we were better off with Fred running the show? Fred actually shot 39% from the field for the whole season.

What kind of creation could last year's Scottie Barnes do? He couldn't score effectively at all from anywhere. And Scottie's 39% is worst because he doesn't shoot any 3s. Fred had a 54% TS and Scotties was 52% and was worst when Fred didn't play. Now if you're saying you wanted to force feed him touches and have him average like 19 8 on 48 TS% that's fine. But no increase in usage would've led to a more effective offense.

Edit: I'll add some of Scottie's play-type stats for context.

PnR Ball Handler: 0.69 PPP 18th Percentile

Post-Up: 0.89 PPP 33rd Percentile

Isolation: 0.81 PPP 32nd Percentile

This combined with his non-existent shooting (32% from Mid-Range and awful 3 point shooting) made it really hard to build an effective offense with him being the lead guard. Other than sheer volume + reps I don't see how more of these possessions for Scottie would've been a more effective offense. Not that Fred was good last year (He wasnt) but Scottie was also pretty terrible in some areas and had some serious warts in his game last year that had nothing to do with Fred/Nurse/Siakam.

So we actually have posters defending the guy who had a 54% TS as someone who HAD to take those shots.

And then same posters saying the 2nd year guy who had a 52% TS in a FVV/Siakam-centric offense should not be given the opportunity because he hasn't shown anything. lol

What's even more funny is that this is in a system that is actually more catered to the veteran guard who shot 54% and he was still crap and we have posters defending him as if he deserved those "reps".

Meanwhile the same posters will take the young guy who clearly DID NOT get consistent opportunity in the offense to be a lead offensive player and use poor offensive stats to show why he should not be allowed to try to be a focal point on offense.

Apparently we will also ignore that players (especially those like Barnes who have shown that he gets better as the season goes on), may actually get better with more consistent reps.

Here's a thought? How about we take the fact that one player with consistent reps was crap, and the team was crap playing that way. How about you try something different with the guy you're investing the future on and let him try to see what he can do when given consistent run? This is the real world, not NBA 2k. Players do differently in different situations. This isn't a computer program that is stagnant. I mean, even for those who live in spreadsheets they should know that machine learning has been integrated for a reason.

There are many things I'd like to say to you but I don't know how.

But you're a high rizz guy

[Los_29]

People still bringing up FVV, and also not understanding he was often the only 3p thread above the break in a dysfunctional offence, in the year of our lord 2023. I bet these ppl will still be doing it 10 years from now

But he wasn't, though, that's the thing.

He shot 33.1% above the break in 2023. He was a threat the year before at 36.7%. In 2023, only Lebron, Max Strus and Kyle Kuzma shot WORSE above the break on 5+ 3PA/g from above the break, for what it's worth.

He has previously been a threat from there, but he was horrifically bad last year.

Fred struggled last year but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a threat. He has a track record of being a good-great high volume three point shooter. As a result teams always viewed him as a threat.

[will]

So we're going to use that small sample size without Fred and determine that that's how he would have performed all year if he was handed the keys? And why is that some sort of indication that we were better off with Fred running the show? Fred actually shot 39% from the field for the whole season.

What kind of creation could last year's Scottie Barnes do? He couldn't score effectively at all from anywhere. And Scottie's 39% is worst because he doesn't shoot any 3s. Fred had a 54% TS and Scotties was 52% and was worst when Fred didn't play. Now if you're saying you wanted to force feed him touches and have him average like 19 8 on 48 TS% that's fine. But no increase in usage would've led to a more effective offense.

Edit: I'll add some of Scottie's play-type stats for context.

PnR Ball Handler: 0.69 PPP 18th Percentile

Post-Up: 0.89 PPP 33rd Percentile

Isolation: 0.81 PPP 32nd Percentile

This combined with his non-existent shooting (32% from Mid-Range and awful 3 point shooting) made it really hard to build an effective offense with him being the lead guard. Other than sheer volume + reps I don't see how more of these possessions for Scottie would've been a more effective offense. Not that Fred was good last year (He wasnt) but Scottie was also pretty terrible in some areas and had some serious warts in his game last year that had nothing to do with Fred/Nurse/Siakam.

So we actually have posters defending the guy who had a 54% TS as someone who HAD to take those shots.

And then same posters saying the 2nd year guy who had a 52% TS in a FVV/Siakam-centric offense should not be given the opportunity because he hasn't shown anything. lol

What's even more funny is that this is in a system that is actually more catered to the veteran guard who shot 54% and he was still crap and we have posters defending him as if he deserved those "reps".

Meanwhile the same posters will take the young guy who clearly DID NOT get consistent opportunity in the offense to be a lead offensive player and use poor offensive stats to show why he should not be allowed to try to be a focal point on offense.

Apparently we will also ignore that players (especially those like Barnes who have shown that he gets better as the season goes on), may actually get better with more consistent reps.

Here's a thought? How about we take the fact that one player with consistent reps was crap, and the team was crap playing that way. How about you try something different with the guy you're investing the future on and let him try to see what he can do when given consistent run? This is the real world, not NBA 2k. Players do differently in different situations. This isn't a computer program that is stagnant. I mean, even for those who live in spreadsheets they should know that machine learning has been integrated for a reason.

I'm still keeping vv on the bench in 2K. DNP-VV.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Again, you can't make the mistake of taking scoring efficiency with role assessment. Scottie couldn't get into the paint easily, shoot off the dribble, keep his handle alive and re-set, etc. Couldn't do most of the things required to get the ball.

The Raptors were losing, but not exceptionally and they were marginally outplaying their competition throughout the year. Coming off a winning season, it wasn't a bad call to try and get back to winning basketball.

The problem was pretty straightforward, Scottie was scolded by Masai, Scottie was publicly slapped around a bit by Thad Young, Scottie was told to put in extra work by the vets who had been a part of the championship. All this stuff is hopefully water under the bridge, but last year it was part of the ill dynamic.

[HumbleRen]

Not sure why there’s a blame game going on. FVV and Scottie were both dog **** last year. Scottie was immature and FVV’s body just broke down on him. That’s why you don’t ask average players to play at an all star level, their bodies can’t maintain that level of load on them.

This whole narrative that Scottie can’t play well without Siakam or FVV is also silly.

Scottie averaged 16.5/8/3 and shot 53% from the FG without Siakam. Averaged 15.5/7.5/4 and shot 50% FG without FVV. This was his rookie year where the sample size was larger than last years sample size. Do we just throw out that data and automatically say he doesn’t play well without one of them ? Of course not.

[Tha Cynic]

You can't talk about role assessment without actually seeing him in a different role consistently. That's why teams trade older guys and open up spots for the younger guys to try.

Also, analysis can't be based on just seeing what a guy does sporadically once in a while and only taking the negative while in a system that wasn't suited for him. If you did want to use small samples, then you could easily look at the spurts that Barnes had and say he is the best on the team at taking over and running the team, but narratives don't allow that take, and instead focus on only the passive times when they're playing FVV/Siakam ball. It's very easy to flip these arguments.

This year will give a much better assessment.

The whole scolded thing didn't seem to phase Masai. His focus the two times he spoke to the media have been more about "Selfish" play and that doesn't seem to include Barnes. I'll take what Masai says over media narratives, especially considering he focused more on the coach and two veterans which most who have been watching also identified last season. These things do carry onto the court and fans who watch his team regularly can see the disconnect.

The Thad and Barnes thing were non issues as said by both. An older guy who's a career role player trying to nag a young guy in today's world won't work lol. This isn't the 90s. You can't choose one time you see a player talking to another guy during shootaround and tell him to focus. No one is fully focused all shootaround lol.

[tsherkin]

Fred struggled last year but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a threat. He has a track record of being a good-great high volume three point shooter. As a result teams always viewed him as a threat.

A season-long issue with getting it done made him less of a threat than he'd been at any other point in his career. It definitely altered how teams had to view him. There is a degree of "is this still true" when looking at a player. Prey upon their injury or their advancing age, etc. You need to be aware of and adaptable to changes in order to best take advantage of a player/team's weaknesses, even if they only exist inside a given frame of time.

Again, you can't make the mistake of taking scoring efficiency with role assessment. Scottie couldn't get into the paint easily, shoot off the dribble, keep his handle alive and re-set, etc. Couldn't do most of the things required to get the ball.

Yeah, he was a raw 21 year-old with no jumper in his second season, so situations like that shouldn't be super surprising. He's definitely a dude riding on his physical tools right now. He seems like he's busting hump to improve, of course, which is a great sign, but we've seen this movie many times over the years with many different prospects. The only real difference is whether or not this time it pans out.

Lacking certain tools, his scoring efficiency is going to be weak and he wasn't going to earn a ton of trust as far as the types of possessions he'd get a lot. It's unsurprising that Nurse didn't want to ram him the ball, even though it would have been a good idea. As you say, though, they were trying to win. This year, fresh coach, fresh start, sounds like a pretty upbeat off-season for Scottie. New opportunities to see what he's got and maybe some room for that growth we all want to see.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Not sure why there’s a blame game going on. FVV and Scottie were both dog **** last year. Scottie was immature and FVV’s body just broke down on him. That’s why you don’t ask average players to play at an all star level, their bodies can’t maintain that level of load on them.

This whole narrative that Scottie can’t play well without Siakam or FVV is also silly.

Scottie averaged 16.5/8/3 and shot 53% from the FG without Siakam. Averaged 15.5/7.5/4 and shot 50% FG without FVV. This was his rookie year where the sample size was larger than last years sample size. Do we just throw out that data and automatically say he doesn’t play well without one of them ? Of course not.

This is a new one.

[HumbleRen]

Not sure why there’s a blame game going on. FVV and Scottie were both dog **** last year. Scottie was immature and FVV’s body just broke down on him. That’s why you don’t ask average players to play at an all star level, their bodies can’t maintain that level of load on them.

This whole narrative that Scottie can’t play well without Siakam or FVV is also silly.

Scottie averaged 16.5/8/3 and shot 53% from the FG without Siakam. Averaged 15.5/7.5/4 and shot 50% FG without FVV. This was his rookie year where the sample size was larger than last years sample size. Do we just throw out that data and automatically say he doesn’t play well without one of them ? Of course not.

This is a new one.

I mean ****, he been a shell of himself after he made that all star campaign for those 3-4 months.

His trainer literally said he had to get hip surgery after that season.

[Los_29]

Not sure why there’s a blame game going on. FVV and Scottie were both dog **** last year. Scottie was immature and FVV’s body just broke down on him. That’s why you don’t ask average players to play at an all star level, their bodies can’t maintain that level of load on them.

This whole narrative that Scottie can’t play well without Siakam or FVV is also silly.

Scottie averaged 16.5/8/3 and shot 53% from the FG without Siakam. Averaged 15.5/7.5/4 and shot 50% FG without FVV. This was his rookie year where the sample size was larger than last years sample size. Do we just throw out that data and automatically say he doesn’t play well without one of them ? Of course not.

This is a new one.

I mean ****, he been a shell of himself after he made that all star campaign for those 3-4 months.

His trainer literally said he had to get hip surgery after that season.

This is interesting. What did his trainer say and where did you read this?

[sbsat]

Not sure why there’s a blame game going on. FVV and Scottie were both dog **** last year. Scottie was immature and FVV’s body just broke down on him. That’s why you don’t ask average players to play at an all star level, their bodies can’t maintain that level of load on them.

This whole narrative that Scottie can’t play well without Siakam or FVV is also silly.

Scottie averaged 16.5/8/3 and shot 53% from the FG without Siakam. Averaged 15.5/7.5/4 and shot 50% FG without FVV. This was his rookie year where the sample size was larger than last years sample size. Do we just throw out that data and automatically say he doesn’t play well without one of them ? Of course not.

Wow I actually agree with you here, never thought that would happen.

I think FVV showed up out of shape last year (looks the same this year) which contributed to him breaking down. He should've learned from Lowry and how the changes he made to his fitness prolonged his career and increased his effectiveness.

[Madvillainy2004]

This is a new one.

I mean ****, he been a shell of himself after he made that all star campaign for those 3-4 months.

His trainer literally said he had to get hip surgery after that season.

This is interesting. What did his trainer say and where did you read this?

I don't think the level Fred was playing at was the problem per say moreso the team had virtually no back up point guard and a terrible bench. So I know it's taboo to say but the team actually played better with him on the court verse off it. Which gets back to Masai asking for wins and not giving the coaching staff the tools for it. Especially when the alternatives are fringe nba players like Flynn, dowtin, and Dalano.

[Los_29]

Fred struggled last year but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t a threat. He has a track record of being a good-great high volume three point shooter. As a result teams always viewed him as a threat.

A season-long issue with getting it done made him less of a threat than he'd been at any other point in his career. It definitely altered how teams had to view him. There is a degree of "is this still true" when looking at a player. Prey upon their injury or their advancing age, etc. You need to be aware of and adaptable to changes in order to best take advantage of a player/team's weaknesses, even if they only exist inside a given frame of time.

Again, you can't make the mistake of taking scoring efficiency with role assessment. Scottie couldn't get into the paint easily, shoot off the dribble, keep his handle alive and re-set, etc. Couldn't do most of the things required to get the ball.

Yeah, he was a raw 21 year-old with no jumper in his second season, so situations like that shouldn't be super surprising. He's definitely a dude riding on his physical tools right now. He seems like he's busting hump to improve, of course, which is a great sign, but we've seen this movie many times over the years with many different prospects. The only real difference is whether or not this time it pans out.

Lacking certain tools, his scoring efficiency is going to be weak and he wasn't going to earn a ton of trust as far as the types of possessions he'd get a lot. It's unsurprising that Nurse didn't want to ram him the ball, even though it would have been a good idea. As you say, though, they were trying to win. This year, fresh coach, fresh start, sounds like a pretty upbeat off-season for Scottie. New opportunities to see what he's got and maybe some room for that growth we all want to see.

He had some months last year where he nailed around 3 threes a game at 36-38%. Teams respected his shot all year. A couple dreadful months shooting the ball does not erase 4 years of good-great three point shooting.

[HumbleRen]

This is a new one.

I mean ****, he been a shell of himself after he made that all star campaign for those 3-4 months.

His trainer literally said he had to get hip surgery after that season.

This is interesting. What did his trainer say and where did you read this?

I'm glad Nurse is gone, he was 100% playing these guys through injuries.

[ItsDanger]

I don't believe the hip surgery was ever announced publicly in summer 2022 from brief online search. Hmmm

[HumbleRen]

I don't believe the hip surgery was ever announced publicly in summer 2022 from brief online search. Hmmm

His camp kept it a secret. Shady stuff from them but understandable considering he was in a contract year.