Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[Madvillainy2004]

I remain surprised at all these complaints that Scottie should’ve gotten the ball more last year. He very clearly lacked the skill development to be any kind of offensive hub.

Hopefully, this year will be different. Hopefully, his handle will be tighter and he’ll be able to create a shot off the bounce. Either way, Scottie needs to earn his reps and I think he will eventually. We just have to have some patience. We drafted Scottie not Cade.

Scottie has never been a guy that's never been a first option hub even dating back to highschool and at FSU was their back up PG (tho he played a lot still). My whole thesis wasn't trying to write him off as a player. Tons of guys that had good rookie years struggled as sophomores (Ja and Tatum for a couple recent examples). But last season he just wasn't all that good with the increased opportunity. And just forcing him to be a 20 8 guy on 46-47 TS% isn't great for his development imo. Well maybe if Masai decided to tank but based on everything that's been said about the team they were trying to win and Fred/Siakam were superior offensive players last year. And they traded for more help with Yak at the deadline. So that was never in the cards anyways.

This year I expect a leap and his first preseason game was an A+ and I'm still super high on him as a prospect. I think he's the best Raps prospect since Vince Carter. But the whispers of him not working seriously enough and Masai having to talk to him made me a tad skeptical and he had long stretches of just poor play. I'm willing to put all that under the bridge and hoping his effort/conditioning is engaged enough that he takes that big 3rd year leap and it looks promising so far.

These 'whispers' came from our lazy vulture like media who quoted David Thorpe on Will Lou's show who admitted to now knowing Scottie personally or how hard he works. Also Masai had several talks with players 1v1 last season but the media pointed it out with Scottie and gave it a negative light. Everyone including Scottie wanted a better year from him last season. But last season gave me zero pause. The coaching, the leadership, the culture was rotten to the core. That's why Darko is here, Jama is back, Temple is here and Masai is doubling down on how selfish the team was. First Preseason game confirms my beliefs.

I mean that talk from Masai wasn't a positive one. It came after he got benched vs Cleveland then had his worst game ever vs the Pelicans. Having a talk that led to some "hard truths" sounds pretty negative. But in general I agree to let all that stuff go and move forward but it didn't sound like a regular 1 on 1 talk to me anyways.

[Tha Cynic]

Samson finally put his analysis for "i watched every scottie pick and roll" on video.

Watch on YouTube

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Two things stand out here.

1) The way Barnes is moving in these videos compared to how he moved in preseason makes me wonder how healthy he was last season.

2) In those pick and roll videos, he's barely actually using the pick and roll with any sort of conscious effort to create a play. In the ones where he actually used the screen and is clearly looking to attack off the pick, he looked pretty decent. Samson needs to redo this after this season when Barnes is actually trying to run the pick and roll which he clearly wasn't last year as that probably wasn't part of the Raptors offense for Barnes.

[Madvillainy2004]

Samson finally put his analysis for "i watched every scottie pick and roll" on video.

Watch on YouTube

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Really good video hoping Koloko can be healthy to be the back up center since that play had a lot of success. The fit with Yak was always questionable so they need to figure something out there. Insane amount of research must've gone into that I applaud Samson for the work.

[MoMan24]

Scottie has never been a guy that's never been a first option hub even dating back to highschool and at FSU was their back up PG (tho he played a lot still). My whole thesis wasn't trying to write him off as a player. Tons of guys that had good rookie years struggled as sophomores (Ja and Tatum for a couple recent examples). But last season he just wasn't all that good with the increased opportunity. And just forcing him to be a 20 8 guy on 46-47 TS% isn't great for his development imo. Well maybe if Masai decided to tank but based on everything that's been said about the team they were trying to win and Fred/Siakam were superior offensive players last year. And they traded for more help with Yak at the deadline. So that was never in the cards anyways.

This year I expect a leap and his first preseason game was an A+ and I'm still super high on him as a prospect. I think he's the best Raps prospect since Vince Carter. But the whispers of him not working seriously enough and Masai having to talk to him made me a tad skeptical and he had long stretches of just poor play. I'm willing to put all that under the bridge and hoping his effort/conditioning is engaged enough that he takes that big 3rd year leap and it looks promising so far.

These 'whispers' came from our lazy vulture like media who quoted David Thorpe on Will Lou's show who admitted to now knowing Scottie personally or how hard he works. Also Masai had several talks with players 1v1 last season but the media pointed it out with Scottie and gave it a negative light. Everyone including Scottie wanted a better year from him last season. But last season gave me zero pause. The coaching, the leadership, the culture was rotten to the core. That's why Darko is here, Jama is back, Temple is here and Masai is doubling down on how selfish the team was. First Preseason game confirms my beliefs.

I mean that talk from Masai wasn't a positive one. It came after he got benched vs Cleveland then had his worst game ever vs the Pelicans. Having a talk that led to some "hard truths" sounds pretty negative. But in general I agree to let all that stuff go and move forward but it didn't sound like a regular 1 on 1 talk to me anyways.

Ya that's the same game Trent came off the bench cause a bunch of guys came back from injury and Nurse didn't want to disrupt rhythm by drastically altering lineups. The media spun it as Barnes got benched when everyone knew it was for one game. The coverage Barnes got last year was truly disgusting to witness. If Barnes was really an issue the media who targeted him would have had real ammo. Again ZERO pause from last year. It didn't sound like a regular 1v1 talk cause of how the media covered it.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It was a one on one talk. What was reported later is that Masai addressed the entire team at a later date re selfishness. Scottie definitely didn't work hard enough last summer, and Masai confirmed his approach to this summer was significantly better. Most people took it as Scottie won the ROY and thought he could just do the same and get better, whereas the expectation was that he would go put in extra work. When his skillset didn't appear to improve, the logical conclusion was that he needed those extra reps. He's not Luka, who was leading and dominating grown-a** men as a teenager. He was Cade Cunningham's hype man in high school and came off the bench at FSU. The amount of work needed to be the lead guy here requires that extra effort. Of course, some people will take things to the extreme and 'not worked hard enough' is heard as 'not worked at all.' That obviously wasn't the case. Anyway, as a Raptor fan I'm hoping it was a summer work thing and not a "I can't develop skill any further" thing, because that would suck for us.

[tsherkin]

1) The way Barnes is moving in these videos compared to how he moved in preseason makes me wonder how healthy he was last season.

2) In those pick and roll videos, he's barely actually using the pick and roll with any sort of conscious effort to create a play. In the ones where he actually used the screen and is clearly looking to attack off the pick, he looked pretty decent. Samson needs to redo this after this season when Barnes is actually trying to run the pick and roll which he clearly wasn't last year as that probably wasn't part of the Raptors offense for Barnes.

He has a nice spin away from it. He has a nice scoop layup. He doesn't pay great attention to the guy behind him when he goes toward the hoop but he passes around the rim and lobs pretty well. Jump passes are not his friend. And yeah, he doesn't bait the defender with his handle super well except when he does that in-out to hard right to left cross going toward the middle, and that's an iso move, not a way to manipulate a screen. Some interesting flashes, though. And he seems to gravitate well to the elbow and pinch post spots, where he's got some nice moves. Even in a down year, his finishing outside of the RA out to about 10 feet is reasonably good. He needs to be there more. Like, old Magic Johnson (literally, Magic under Dunleavy) sets type of thing.

[sidsid]

Samson finally put his analysis for "i watched every scottie pick and roll" on video.

Watch on YouTube

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Samson touching on both the Poetl and Schroeder problem. Although Trent isn't exactly going to shine as a screen setter. More points going towards Otto starting if he ever suits up.

But the big takeaway is the obvious goal we'd want here is more Barnes/Siakam screen action to provide the dynamism the system will likely lack. If we could just get the other shooting gravity negatives out of the way.

[Basketball_Jones]

Someone brought this up already and yes I do like the idea of starting Otto and having Dennis run the second unit so we don't have to see a damn minute of Flynn or Nowell lol. However, Masai for sure wants to see what Flynn and Nowell can do so I don't think we have the green light on that yet.

[TheGeneral99]

It was a one on one talk. What was reported later is that Masai addressed the entire team at a later date re selfishness. Scottie definitely didn't work hard enough last summer, and Masai confirmed his approach to this summer was significantly better. Most people took it as Scottie won the ROY and thought he could just do the same and get better, whereas the expectation was that he would go put in extra work. When his skillset didn't appear to improve, the logical conclusion was that he needed those extra reps. He's not Luka, who was leading and dominating grown-a** men as a teenager. He was Cade Cunningham's hype man in high school and came off the bench at FSU. The amount of work needed to be the lead guy here requires that extra effort. Of course, some people will take things to the extreme and 'not worked hard enough' is heard as 'not worked at all.' That obviously wasn't the case. Anyway, as a Raptor fan I'm hoping it was a summer work thing and not a "I can't develop skill any further" thing, because that would suck for us.

I think the issue with Scottie is that he really over exceeded expectations offensively in his rookie season that his sophomore season felt like a massive disappointment despite the fact that his production was almost the same.

95% of players that post 15, 7 and 5 in their sophomore season are usually viewed as budding all-stars.

[tsherkin]

I think the issue with Scottie is that he really over exceeded expectations offensively in his rookie season that his sophomore season felt like a massive disappointment despite the fact that his production was almost the same.

95% of players that post 15, 7 and 5 in their sophomore season are usually viewed as budding all-stars.

Yeah but usually they look better in the doing beyond just the volume. As a rookie, and not a featured one, being that inefficient is usually a problem. Typical rookie inefficacy comes from shouldering too much of a load. Scottie was 4th/5th among starters in volume last year, depending on who was healthy at the time, and despite that, really looked fairly unimpressive (specifically as a scoring threat) due to his poor shooting.

But in his second season, when what happened was his efficiency tanked and his raw assists went up, what were people to think? He was among the worst in the league in terms of scoring efficiency among guys getting consequential possessions. And that's even before factoring that league-average efficiency rose like 1.5% between 2022 and 2023, so had he even stood still, he'd have looked worse, but he dropped below his rookie efficiency, creating this exaggerated problem for using him in a scoring possession.

But some of that might be him being young and learning exactly what kind of work he needs to put into this in order to maintain/improve. It sounds like that message was received. Now we just have to see if he has the ability to develop his game. Because he got worse last year, assist production notwithstanding, he's got an uphill battle in terms of league perception, and also in terms of how the fanbase is going to see him. Guys with weak skills and loads of physical tools are a dime a dozen. Scottie's got some passing magic in him, but if he doesn't tighten his handle and improve his shooting, he won't be a worthwhile choice in whom to invest a lot of possessions, so we need to see that change this season to at least some extent. A sign of progression/development. And not just back to where he was last year, either.

[Madvillainy2004]

Someone brought this up already and yes I do like the idea of starting Otto and having Dennis run the second unit so we don't have to see a damn minute of Flynn or Nowell lol. However, Masai for sure wants to see what Flynn and Nowell can do so I don't think we have the green light on that yet.

I've always liked Porters game dating back to his Wizards years but he just isn't healthy enough to worth investing time as a starter. Odds are he's gonna play 30-40 games if we're lucky.

[Vampirate]

Samson finally put his analysis for "i watched every scottie pick and roll" on video.

Watch on YouTube

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Two things stand out here.

1) The way Barnes is moving in these videos compared to how he moved in preseason makes me wonder how healthy he was last season.

2) In those pick and roll videos, he's barely actually using the pick and roll with any sort of conscious effort to create a play. In the ones where he actually used the screen and is clearly looking to attack off the pick, he looked pretty decent. Samson needs to redo this after this season when Barnes is actually trying to run the pick and roll which he clearly wasn't last year as that probably wasn't part of the Raptors offense for Barnes.

Barnes disappointing second season was just a perfect storm.

1. Since he was the rookie of the year, there's more film and scouting on him for opposing defenses
2. He was more raw in his 2nd year and didn't have the skill set (shooting) to score easily
3. He came in injured which just compounded things for months as it most likely affected his foot speed
4. The roster is not really built for him to shine as he's not the focal point and overlapping skillset (lack of shooting)
5. Nurse pretty much ran everyone into the ground, even FVV wasn't really happy as he said after every loss Nurse would unload into the roster. (Nurse is a playoff coach, not a development one)
6. The FVV headache

[Basketball_Jones]

Someone brought this up already and yes I do like the idea of starting Otto and having Dennis run the second unit so we don't have to see a damn minute of Flynn or Nowell lol. However, Masai for sure wants to see what Flynn and Nowell can do so I don't think we have the green light on that yet.

I've always liked Porters game dating back to his Wizards years but he just isn't healthy enough to worth investing time as a starter. Odds are he's gonna play 30-40 games if we're lucky.

Yeah it was hilarious that Nurse already ran him into the ground 9 games into the season lol

[tsherkin]

Barnes disappointing second season was just a perfect storm.

1. Since he was the rookie of the year, there's more film and scouting on him for opposing defenses
2. He was more raw in his 2nd year and didn't have the skill set (shooting) to score easily
3. He came in injured which just compounded things for months as it most likely affected his foot speed
4. The roster is not really built for him to shine as he's not the focal point and overlapping skillset (lack of shooting)
5. Nurse pretty much ran everyone into the ground, even FVV wasn't really happy as he said after every loss Nurse would unload into the roster. (Nurse is a playoff coach, not a development one)
6. The FVV headache

I think a lot of this boils down to "he can't shoot, and it caused problems because he doesn't have tier one athleticism."

The other stuff is more peripheral than anything else, though health can obviously impact training time and all that. Guys who have one or the other are usually able to adapt better by year two. Guys who have neither obviously struggle. He also traded some of his short middies for 3s in his second season, and that predictably didn't do him any favors.

[will]

Scottish, bayyybeeeee!

I believe in your, Scottish. Don't let THEY take you down.

[HumbleRen]

Samson finally put his analysis for "i watched every scottie pick and roll" on video.

Watch on YouTube

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Two things stand out here.

1) The way Barnes is moving in these videos compared to how he moved in preseason makes me wonder how healthy he was last season.

2) In those pick and roll videos, he's barely actually using the pick and roll with any sort of conscious effort to create a play. In the ones where he actually used the screen and is clearly looking to attack off the pick, he looked pretty decent. Samson needs to redo this after this season when Barnes is actually trying to run the pick and roll which he clearly wasn't last year as that probably wasn't part of the Raptors offense for Barnes.

Barnes disappointing second season was just a perfect storm.

1. Since he was the rookie of the year, there's more film and scouting on him for opposing defenses
2. He was more raw in his 2nd year and didn't have the skill set (shooting) to score easily
3. He came in injured which just compounded things for months as it most likely affected his foot speed
4. The roster is not really built for him to shine as he's not the focal point and overlapping skillset (lack of shooting)
5. Nurse pretty much ran everyone into the ground, even FVV wasn't really happy as he said after every loss Nurse would unload into the roster. (Nurse is a playoff coach, not a development one)
6. The FVV headache

I think a lot of people underestimate how really raw Scottie is.

His physical tools and high level of basketball feel have really masked it. He might be the rawest rookie of the year in like 15 + years.

[tsherkin]

His physical tools and high level of basketball feel have really masked it. He might be the rawest rookie of the year in like 15 + years.

I don't know about THAT; there have been plenty of guys drafted with basically only physical tools and no skills in that time frame. Scottie's above that level based on his passing and his short game. Even this past season, he had reasonable touch on those short hooks.

But yes, he's very raw. He lacks range and his handle needs work and so on and so forth. Plenty of things fairly reasonable for his particular development arc. Year 2 was disappointing, but it did highlight his skill deficiencies. He's not a polished guy. We're watching stuff that used to happen in college, though there he'd be more like a junior going into his senior season, or something similar. So if we view this from a historical context, we should be watching him hopefully turn into something a little more polished and successful this year, maybe. This year or next year are basically the big ones, but we do need to see something this year. Much after that, and we're talking about the likelihood of him truly developing into what we want dropping off precipitously.

[TheGeneral99]

Two things stand out here.

1) The way Barnes is moving in these videos compared to how he moved in preseason makes me wonder how healthy he was last season.

2) In those pick and roll videos, he's barely actually using the pick and roll with any sort of conscious effort to create a play. In the ones where he actually used the screen and is clearly looking to attack off the pick, he looked pretty decent. Samson needs to redo this after this season when Barnes is actually trying to run the pick and roll which he clearly wasn't last year as that probably wasn't part of the Raptors offense for Barnes.

Barnes disappointing second season was just a perfect storm.

1. Since he was the rookie of the year, there's more film and scouting on him for opposing defenses
2. He was more raw in his 2nd year and didn't have the skill set (shooting) to score easily
3. He came in injured which just compounded things for months as it most likely affected his foot speed
4. The roster is not really built for him to shine as he's not the focal point and overlapping skillset (lack of shooting)
5. Nurse pretty much ran everyone into the ground, even FVV wasn't really happy as he said after every loss Nurse would unload into the roster. (Nurse is a playoff coach, not a development one)
6. The FVV headache

I think a lot of people underestimate how really raw Scottie is.

His physical tools and high level of basketball feel have really masked it. He might be the rawest rookie of the year in like 15 + years.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Barnes is raw in some areas, but he has good ball handling for his size, a decent post-game with very good hook shots, can finish with either hand, makes good use of the backboard, has a soft touch and lay-up package around the basket, and while not a good shooter, he's better than expected.

Obviously he needs to tighten his handle, tighten his jumper, develop a mid-range game and improve his outside shooting, but I wouldn't say he's incredibly raw.

Guys like Simmons, Wiggins, Michael Carter Williams, Griffin, Amare etc. were just as raw as Barnes.

[HumbleRen]

Barnes disappointing second season was just a perfect storm.

1. Since he was the rookie of the year, there's more film and scouting on him for opposing defenses
2. He was more raw in his 2nd year and didn't have the skill set (shooting) to score easily
3. He came in injured which just compounded things for months as it most likely affected his foot speed
4. The roster is not really built for him to shine as he's not the focal point and overlapping skillset (lack of shooting)
5. Nurse pretty much ran everyone into the ground, even FVV wasn't really happy as he said after every loss Nurse would unload into the roster. (Nurse is a playoff coach, not a development one)
6. The FVV headache

I think a lot of people underestimate how really raw Scottie is.

His physical tools and high level of basketball feel have really masked it. He might be the rawest rookie of the year in like 15 + years.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Barnes is raw in some areas, but he has good ball handling for his size, a decent post-game with very good hook shots, can finish with either hand, makes good use of the backboard, has a soft touch and lay-up package around the basket, and while not a good shooter, he's better than expected.

Obviously he needs to tighten his handle, tighten his jumper, develop a mid-range game and improve his outside shooting, but I wouldn't say he's incredibly raw.

Guys like Simmons, Wiggins, Michael Carter Williams, Griffin, Amare etc. were just as raw as Barnes.

Ben Simmons was not raw, he just lacked shooting. His handles are incredible for a 6’10 guy.
His defence was all defence caliber too. If Scottie had Simmons on ball skills, Dennis would not be starting lol.

Griffin was an all star level player in his rookie year. He lacked a refined jumper but he was pretty damn polished for a rookie.

You’re right about Wiggins and MCW though, I think Scottie is less raw than they were in their rookie year.

[tsherkin]

You’re right about Wiggins and MCW though, I think Scottie is less raw than they were in their rookie year.

Wiggins was definitely more raw. He could do fairly little for a long time. And even now, he isn't polished or especially impressive. And a couple of timely performances in the playoffs for Golden State doesn't really change that. What changed is that Golden State didn't ask him to shoulder the primary scorer's load and let him get back to the corner to a similar proportion that he saw in his rookie season, a shot which he did quite well on even from there. He's still trash at the line. Nine years in, his handle's a little tighter and he's got any semblance of a post game, but he's not actually developed much.

I really hope Scottie doesn't follow a Wiggins-type path.