Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[tecumseh18]

I think a lot of people underestimate how really raw Scottie is.

His physical tools and high level of basketball feel have really masked it. He might be the rawest rookie of the year in like 15 + years.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Barnes is raw in some areas, but he has good ball handling for his size, a decent post-game with very good hook shots, can finish with either hand, makes good use of the backboard, has a soft touch and lay-up package around the basket, and while not a good shooter, he's better than expected.

Obviously he needs to tighten his handle, tighten his jumper, develop a mid-range game and improve his outside shooting, but I wouldn't say he's incredibly raw.

Guys like Simmons, Wiggins, Michael Carter Williams, Griffin, Amare etc. were just as raw as Barnes.

Ben Simmons was not raw, he just lacked shooting. His handles are incredible for a 6’10 guy.
His defence was all defence caliber too. If Scottie had Simmons on ball skills, Dennis would not be starting lol.

Griffin was an all star level player in his rookie year. He lacked a refined jumper but he was pretty damn polished for a rookie.

You’re right about Wiggins and MCW though, I think Scottie is less raw than they were in their rookie year.

Both Simmons and Blake were redshirted their first year in the NBA. So they had more time to develop their bodies and skills, working around their rehab.

[HumbleRen]

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Barnes is raw in some areas, but he has good ball handling for his size, a decent post-game with very good hook shots, can finish with either hand, makes good use of the backboard, has a soft touch and lay-up package around the basket, and while not a good shooter, he's better than expected.

Obviously he needs to tighten his handle, tighten his jumper, develop a mid-range game and improve his outside shooting, but I wouldn't say he's incredibly raw.

Guys like Simmons, Wiggins, Michael Carter Williams, Griffin, Amare etc. were just as raw as Barnes.

Ben Simmons was not raw, he just lacked shooting. His handles are incredible for a 6’10 guy.
His defence was all defence caliber too. If Scottie had Simmons on ball skills, Dennis would not be starting lol.

Griffin was an all star level player in his rookie year. He lacked a refined jumper but he was pretty damn polished for a rookie.

You’re right about Wiggins and MCW though, I think Scottie is less raw than they were in their rookie year.

Both Simmons and Blake were redshirted their first year in the NBA. So they had more time to develop their bodies and skills, working around their rehab.

They were still ahead of the curve compared to Scottie in raw talent and technical ability. Those 2 guys were just simply on a different tier of a prospect compared to Scottie. I’m not blaming Scottie for that.

[tsherkin]

Both Simmons and Blake were redshirted their first year in the NBA. So they had more time to develop their bodies and skills, working around their rehab.

Blake had 2 years in college. Then he messed up his knee cap, and had January surgery during what would have been his rookie year. If you want to say he got two off-seasons, sure, but he spent a lot of time working purely on rehab, and the second season of college was more important than anything for his development.

Simmons is a closer example. Simmons had an ankle injury that was, of course, a mobility injury for him which caused him to miss the whole season when it didn't heal properly. He only had the one year in college, though most of what we saw from him was already sort of in place there. Shooting ability was never his thing.

So neither of them quite line up in the way you're saying, given how much time they missed. Surely, there were some things they could do around their lower body injuries, of course, but it didn't make huge differences to their skill set or their adaptation to NBA basketball.

[Scase]

I think the issue with Scottie is that he really over exceeded expectations offensively in his rookie season that his sophomore season felt like a massive disappointment despite the fact that his production was almost the same.

95% of players that post 15, 7 and 5 in their sophomore season are usually viewed as budding all-stars.

Yeah but usually they look better in the doing beyond just the volume. As a rookie, and not a featured one, being that inefficient is usually a problem. Typical rookie inefficacy comes from shouldering too much of a load. Scottie was 4th/5th among starters in volume last year, depending on who was healthy at the time, and despite that, really looked fairly unimpressive (specifically as a scoring threat) due to his poor shooting.

But in his second season, when what happened was his efficiency tanked and his raw assists went up, what were people to think? He was among the worst in the league in terms of scoring efficiency among guys getting consequential possessions. And that's even before factoring that league-average efficiency rose like 1.5% between 2022 and 2023, so had he even stood still, he'd have looked worse, but he dropped below his rookie efficiency, creating this exaggerated problem for using him in a scoring possession.

But some of that might be him being young and learning exactly what kind of work he needs to put into this in order to maintain/improve. It sounds like that message was received. Now we just have to see if he has the ability to develop his game. Because he got worse last year, assist production notwithstanding, he's got an uphill battle in terms of league perception, and also in terms of how the fanbase is going to see him. Guys with weak skills and loads of physical tools are a dime a dozen. Scottie's got some passing magic in him, but if he doesn't tighten his handle and improve his shooting, he won't be a worthwhile choice in whom to invest a lot of possessions, so we need to see that change this season to at least some extent. A sign of progression/development. And not just back to where he was last year, either.

No stats to back it up, but just watching Nurses system, Scottie never had any real defined role and was thrown wherever. Consistency in role, IMO, would allow (especially a younger player) more repetition, which typically leads to better performance.

Think jack of all trades vs mastering 1 skill.

[tsherkin]

No stats to back it up, but just watching Nurses system, Scottie never had any real defined role and was thrown wherever. Consistency in role, IMO, would allow (especially a younger player) more repetition, which typically leads to better performance.

Think jack of all trades vs mastering 1 skill.

I mean, if he had more scoring skills or elite speed, then it would be less of an issue. He's going to have some work ahead of him refining his game and learning how to use the physical advantages he does have. It's going to be a slower process if it happens because he can't just accelerate past or shoot over people the way elite scorers do.

Structure will help, no doubt. It helps anyone, but what we're witnessing is someone with a longer development curve and probably a lower ceiling as a result. Leastwise as a scorer, specifically.

[Scase]

No stats to back it up, but just watching Nurses system, Scottie never had any real defined role and was thrown wherever. Consistency in role, IMO, would allow (especially a younger player) more repetition, which typically leads to better performance.

Think jack of all trades vs mastering 1 skill.

I mean, if he had more scoring skills or elite speed, then it would be less of an issue. He's going to have some work ahead of him refining his game and learning how to use the physical advantages he does have. It's going to be a slower process if it happens because he can't just accelerate past or shoot over people the way elite scorers do.

Structure will help, no doubt. It helps anyone, but what we're witnessing is someone with a longer development curve and probably a lower ceiling as a result. Leastwise as a scorer, specifically.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I don't think it explains everything. But, 2 years in the league as a top tier blue chip prospect, and your org has zero defined role for you? How often does that happen. And more importantly, when does it ever benefit the player.

[tsherkin]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I don't think it explains everything. But, 2 years in the league as a top tier blue chip prospect, and your org has zero defined role for you? How often does that happen. And more importantly, when does it ever benefit the player.

Lack of structure surely hasn't helped, no doubt. Of course, there's only so much structure he can be supported by, right? He's already among the tops in transition possessions and he cuts and what-not but he's usually on-ball, so that isn't awesome. And he can't really catch and shoot, so that doesn't help. We could theoretically use him in more post-ups and as the screener in PnR, but we want him on-ball to take advantage of his passing, right?

So it's a little bit of which do we pick? Improve his scoring efficiency and see what kind of big man things he can do, or focus on developing him in the role we seem to want him in most?

[dTox]

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[HumbleRen]

I hope this FO remembers how valuable guard play is again in the future and pairs Scottie up with a young all nba caliber guard at some point in his career.

It would be such a shame for him to never experience that luxury. His strengths are basically begging to be paired up with one.

[WuTang_CMB]

High peeeeeek n' roll for Scottie

[ArthurVandelay]

I hope this FO remembers how valuable guard play is again in the future and pairs Scottie up with a young all nba caliber guard at some point in his career.

It would be such a shame for him to never experience that luxury. His strengths are basically begging to be paired up with one.

This is probably not a popular view but I'd like to see Pascal dealt to Atlanta for Bufkin, Griffin, and draft capital. However, the large contract that needs to come back (Hunter) would be sent to a third team. I don't think Herro happens now, but his skill set would be interesting. Another option would be Simons from Portland. Yes, his D is awful but that guy can score and he does have the physical tools to be a defender, unlike Herro. Putting Simons as a scorer, secondary ball-handler next to Scottie would be fun. As a footnote, Portland would have a use for a player like Hunter as a poor man's OG.

Pascal turning into Simons, Bufkin, Griffin, and draft capital would bring more balance to the Raptors line up.

[Airmiess]

I cant properly gage Barnes when Siakam will still be taking the brunt of responsibilities on offense

For young guys they need to fail with no safety net, eventually they get used to the work load.

[TheGeneral99]

I cant properly gage Barnes when Siakam will still be taking the brunt of responsibilities on offense

For young guys they need to fail with no safety net, eventually they get used to the work load.

I don't agree with this.

There needs to a balance of letting players play through mistakes, but also learning the right habits.

Kawhi, for example, played on an elite Spurs team and was the 3rd/4th option from 2011-2014. That didn't stop him from becoming an elite offensive weapon by 2016.

Kobe, joined a really good Lakers team that just got Shaq and was behind guys like Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel in the pecking order. That didn't stop him emerging as an elite offensive player by year 3.

Harden joined a really good Thunder team as a 3rd option coming off the bench and that didn't stop him becoming an elite offensive weapon.

[ItsDanger]

Look, I'm going to use one example AND then extrapolate to everything else. You know, because that just makes a lot of sense. LOL

[TheGeneral99]

Look, I'm going to use one example AND then extrapolate to everything else. You know, because that just makes a lot of sense. LOL

Not sure who you are responding to.

Are you saying that if Barnes is the #2 option under Siakam it's impossible to gauge how good he is and his progress will be stifled? Or are you responding to someone else?

There is no reason why Barnes as the #2 or #3 offensive option can't still eventually develop into a very strong offensive player. This idea that Siakam needs to be gone for Barnes to actually flourish is really overstated.

[Airmiess]

I cant properly gage Barnes when Siakam will still be taking the brunt of responsibilities on offense

For young guys they need to fail with no safety net, eventually they get used to the work load.

I don't agree with this.

There needs to a balance of letting players play through mistakes, but also learning the right habits.

Kawhi, for example, played on an elite Spurs team and was the 3rd/4th option from 2011-2014. That didn't stop him from becoming an elite offensive weapon by 2016.

Kobe, joined a really good Lakers team that just got Shaq and was behind guys like Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel in the pecking order. That didn't stop him emerging as an elite offensive player by year 3.

Harden joined a really good Thunder team as a 3rd option coming off the bench and that didn't stop him becoming an elite offensive weapon.

Siakam is an all nba player in his prime due for a super max, you are comparing him to fringe stars and stars who were on the tail end of their careers who were ready to hand over the mantle. You need better examples.

[wegotthabeet]

I cant properly gage Barnes when Siakam will still be taking the brunt of responsibilities on offense

For young guys they need to fail with no safety net, eventually they get used to the work load.

I don't agree with this.

There needs to a balance of letting players play through mistakes, but also learning the right habits.

Kawhi, for example, played on an elite Spurs team and was the 3rd/4th option from 2011-2014. That didn't stop him from becoming an elite offensive weapon by 2016.

Kobe, joined a really good Lakers team that just got Shaq and was behind guys like Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel in the pecking order. That didn't stop him emerging as an elite offensive player by year 3.

Harden joined a really good Thunder team as a 3rd option coming off the bench and that didn't stop him becoming an elite offensive weapon.

all three of those guys took off after they were handed the keys, not before (although they showed glimpses).

Kawhi became elite after Duncan, Manu & Parker starter to age out.

Kobe took that next step in year 3 after they traded Van Exel & Jones.

Harden became the first option after being traded to Houston.

context matters. opportunity also matters.

[brownbobcat]

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Barnes is raw in some areas, but he has good ball handling for his size, a decent post-game with very good hook shots, can finish with either hand, makes good use of the backboard, has a soft touch and lay-up package around the basket, and while not a good shooter, he's better than expected.

Obviously he needs to tighten his handle, tighten his jumper, develop a mid-range game and improve his outside shooting, but I wouldn't say he's incredibly raw.

Guys like Simmons, Wiggins, Michael Carter Williams, Griffin, Amare etc. were just as raw as Barnes.

He doesn't have a good post-game at all in terms of actual moves and footwork, he relies almost exclusively on size and touch. The good news is that footwork is very learnable, although balance and body control are partially physical attributes.

[Vampirate]

I hope this FO remembers how valuable guard play is again in the future and pairs Scottie up with a young all nba caliber guard at some point in his career.

It would be such a shame for him to never experience that luxury. His strengths are basically begging to be paired up with one.

It would work because you can't really double either.

If a double team goes to the PG pass it inside, if Barnes gets doubled, he'd pass it to the PG.

Obviously a key to this though is teams would need to be worried/fear Barnes inside scoring, for him to get doubled.

[TheGeneral99]

I cant properly gage Barnes when Siakam will still be taking the brunt of responsibilities on offense

For young guys they need to fail with no safety net, eventually they get used to the work load.

I don't agree with this.

There needs to a balance of letting players play through mistakes, but also learning the right habits.

Kawhi, for example, played on an elite Spurs team and was the 3rd/4th option from 2011-2014. That didn't stop him from becoming an elite offensive weapon by 2016.

Kobe, joined a really good Lakers team that just got Shaq and was behind guys like Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel in the pecking order. That didn't stop him emerging as an elite offensive player by year 3.

Harden joined a really good Thunder team as a 3rd option coming off the bench and that didn't stop him becoming an elite offensive weapon.

Siakam is an all nba player in his prime due for a super max, you are comparing him to fringe stars and stars who were on the tail end of their careers who were ready to hand over the mantle. You need better examples.

Huh?

Tony Parker was in his prime in the early 2010s, Ginobili was still really good and Duncan was all-star caliber until 2014.

Are you trying to tell me that a young prime Shaq and a 22 year old Eddie Jones in 1996-1997 were at the tail end of their primes?

Are you trying to tell me that a young emerging stars in Durant and Westbrook between 2009-2012 were fringe all-stars at the tail end of their primes?

Weird response.