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2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks

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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1621 » by 31to6 » Thu Oct 12, 2023 3:43 pm

Hal14 wrote:
31to6 wrote:I think Svi is clearly the backup 2. Pritchard is the 1, Hauser the 3. Brissett and Stevens battle for the backup 4 slot, whoever starts making corner 3s gets it. Luke is the backup 5. Brad will mix them in with some of the top 6 anyways, so each of these guys (except maybe Pritchard, King of the Usage) will look better in that context. Especially Kornet and Brissi/Stevens -- give them a chance to be out there with JT and DW or Jrue before writing them off because they can probably look better in a more limited role.

If we just go by who Mazzulla has given the most playing time to in the preseason, it's:

1. Payton Pritchard (76 mins)
2. Sam Hauser (70 mins)
3. Dalano Banton (59 mins)
4. Oshae Brissett (57 mins)
5. Lamar Stevens (48 mins)
6. Luke Kornet (47 mins)
7. Svi Mykhailiuk (44 mins)
8. Jordan Walsh (31 mins)
9. JD Davison (25 mins)
10. Neemias Queta (21 mins)
11. Wenyen Gabriel (18 mins)
12. DJ Steward (6 mins)

*This is simply a ranking of the total number of minutes played by the guys outside of the team's established "Core 6"

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Boston-Celtics/2/Stats/2024/Totals/All/minutes/All/desc/1/Preseason

This ^ seems to be the pecking order, at the moment. Things could certainly change by the time we play our next game in 5 days..


If you do a list by "who Joe has pulled 20 seconds into a half and chewed out for not getting on the floor for a loose ball", it's:

1. Banton

I think minutes in pre-season games are highly variable, ie, no Jays for the last two games, and it was somewhat surprising Svi didn't play in the preseason opener, but that was a 'full squad' game and you can only go so deep. Svi has clearly made an impact once he's gotten onto the court, and my point anyway was that I think he slots right in as backup SG, which puts him in a different 'lane' than Hauser, who I think is locked in as backup SF for now.
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1622 » by bigfoot_cryptozoology » Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:04 pm

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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1623 » by celtxman » Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:23 pm

DelMonte West wrote:
return2glory wrote:White with 3 blocks in 17 minutes.


He must have been watching a lot of Bill Russell and Greg Stiemsma film during the offseason.

Based on film from Steamer I'd give him a Tommy Point!

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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1624 » by Hal14 » Thu Oct 12, 2023 4:55 pm

31to6 wrote:If you do a list by "who Joe has pulled 20 seconds into a half and chewed out for not getting on the floor for a loose ball", it's:

1. Banton

I wouldn't read too deeply into that.

According to Mazzulla, it was simply a teaching moment. Clearly, Mazzulla is high on Banton and his potential as evidenced here:
Read on Twitter
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And here, where he sings Banton's praises at :14 and again at 2:14


Banton went back in the game shortly after that happened. And this reporter commented that Banton played much harder when he went back in. So I wouldn't think is anything to worry about moving forward.
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31to6 wrote:I think minutes in pre-season games are highly variable

Sure. Which is why I posted the total minutes for all 3 preseason games combined, rather than only looking at a 1 or 2 game sample size.

I also made sure to mention in my post that "This seems to be the pecking order, at the moment. Things could certainly change by the time we play our next game in 5 days.."

31to6 wrote:it was somewhat surprising Svi didn't play in the preseason opener, but that was a 'full squad' game and you can only go so deep.

To some it may have been surprising. I don't think ti was surprising to the C's coaching staff, though. It was probably intentional.

We'll have a full squad when the reg season opens up, so it would appear there's a good chance Svi won't be playing then - since he didn't play in the preseason game where we had a full squad.

Of course, that could certainly change - as I mentioned in my post..

31to6 wrote:Svi has clearly made an impact once he's gotten onto the court, and my point anyway was that I think he slots right in as backup SG, which puts him in a different 'lane' than Hauser, who I think is locked in as backup SF for now.

Perhaps. But I think that collectively here we sometimes get too caught up with positions that a guy plays.

We're getting deeper and deeper into the era of positionless basketball. Positions these days are really fluid and interchangeable, especially with a switching defense, the need for a secondary ball handler on the floor, etc.

Technically, we didn't really have a "backup 2" last season. We had Brogdon, who throughout his career (and also with the Celtics) has been more of a PG. But of course, he did often play the 2. But I wouldn't necessarily say he was a "backup 2". He was really a combo-guard. D-White probably played more at the 2 last season than Brogdon, but when Smart was out, it was usually White running the point. He too was a combo-guard. Heck, even Smart was the PG a lot, but often times was playing off ball as a 2. They really were all combo-guards. And so was Pritchard when he played - although he was on the bench most of the time - especially when everyone was healthy.

Hauser, while I suppose he could be classified as a "backup SF" I just consider him a wing. A wing can be a 2, a wing can be a 3, a wing can even be a 4.

I'd consider Svi to also be a "wing". But with Svi, he's a wing who can also be a secondary ball handler - whereas Hauser doesn't really offer that kind of versatility.

Svi, Hauser, Banton, Walsh, Stevens and Brissett are all essentially "backup wings". Some of them are bigger, stronger, better rebounders (Stevens, Brissett) while others can operate as a secondary ball handler (Svi, Banton) while some even have the ability to run the point at times (Banton). But all (for the most part) have played the wing position.

Again, positions these days are fluid and pretty interchangeable. Which is why in my post, I didn't break down the players by position - I thought it might be helpful to see all of the players on the team (outside of the core 6) listed in order of total minutes played so far this preseason to simply give a rough idea of the pecking order, at the moment.

One other thing worth noting in the video above with Mazzulla speaking after the Knicks game. Around the 2:50 mark, a reporter asks him what he's looking for from the backup wings and he says "toughness, physicality and IQ". FWIW, he does not say anything about shooting being a requirement.
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1625 » by bigfoot_cryptozoology » Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:46 pm

Interesting thoughts from Eddie Jurak...

Big picture thoughts after 3 games.

1. One key for this preseason was supposed to be getting the drastically revised lineup and rotation players comfortable in their roles, etc. I think the weird preseason schedule has made that difficult/impossible. Thus far, Tatum and Brown have sat out two games and the other top 6 players have sat out one. Not great for figuring out how to play together.

2. But we did get the alternative benefit of getting more time for the lower to not-in-the-rotation players. All of them, save maybe Gabriel who has yet to show much of anything, look like decent signings who could help the team in a pinch. A few seem to have some real potential as rotation guys.

3. But what will ultimately drive which down roster players get a chance will depend on which ones can fit in with the starters and other rotation players, and we are not yet getting to see that. For example, Banton showed a driving ability against the Knicks that would be valuable if he could do it in real games and add the element of dishing to open shooters off his drives. But he cannot shoot. He'd only be useful if they are willing to put the ball in his hands and create, and they may prefer someone who will stand in the corner looking for open threes and not get int he way of the Jays - and he'd be terrible at that. This is part of why I think Brissett will have a role even though he hasn't flashed as much as others.

4. White and Holiday have to start (and, mostly, finish). They are just too good in too many phases of the game to relegate either of them to the limited minutes White role from last year's playoffs. KP also needs to start (his main value is as an offensive complement to the Jays), so Al needs to be the one who comes off the bench. After Al and KP, backup C is a spot of relative weakness on the team, which is another reason why it makes sense not to start them both. I could see starting Horford against certain opponents (e.g., Philly and Embiid), but it will be a strike against Mazzulla if he again struggles to get White on the floor.

5. Speaking of KP, he adds multiple dimensions to what the Celtics do offensively, but one thing he does not do well is handle the ball/create off the dribble. Against a team like Miami, if he is fiddling around with the ball, he'll be a turnover machine. They need to have him focusing on his (many) strengths and not wasting possessions with indecisive ballhandling. This is just preseason and he hasn't been out much with Brown and Tatum who will use a lot of possessions, so in practice this may be a non issue. But it is something to watch.

6. I think Pritchard is for real. Teams would target him if he starts, but as a role player who can shoot and push the ball, I think he'll be an asset. I think he's the 7th man on this team.
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1626 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:53 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:Svi scored more points in 26 fewer minutes than Hauser. Damn.


Now do defense.
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1627 » by Larry_Russell » Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:24 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:Svi scored more points in 26 fewer minutes than Hauser. Damn.


Now do defense.



Sam opp points of turnover - 8.3
Svi opp points of turnover - 10

Sam opp 2nd chance points - 6.3
Svi opp 2nd chance points - 5

Sam opp points in paint - 20
Svi opp points in paint - 19

Sam DEF WS - 0.056
Svi DEF WS - (0.066)

Sam Def Rating - 102
Svi Def Rating - 118.5

Numbers say that Sam has been better, but Sam has also played an extra game with Tatum, Brown, and that is going to skew things a little
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1628 » by Fierce1 » Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:30 pm

It's no big deal.
I mean it's not like Svi will play 30 minutes per game.

Svi is a guy you sign if you want instant offense.

If Svi is a guy who plays solid defense then the Cs would not be able to afford him.
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1629 » by 31to6 » Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:48 pm

Hal14 wrote:
31to6 wrote:If you do a list by "who Joe has pulled 20 seconds into a half and chewed out for not getting on the floor for a loose ball", it's:

1. Banton

I wouldn't read too deeply into that.

According to Mazzulla, it was simply a teaching moment. Clearly, Mazzulla is high on Banton and his potential as evidenced here:
Read on Twitter
/photo/1

And here, where he sings Banton's praises at :10 and again at :44


Banton went back in the game shortly after that happened. And this reporter commented that Banton played much harder when he went back in. So I wouldn't think is anything to worry about moving forward.
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31to6 wrote:I think minutes in pre-season games are highly variable

Sure. Which is why I posted the total minutes for all 3 preseason games combined, rather than only looking at a 1 or 2 game sample size.

I also made sure to mention in my post that "This seems to be the pecking order, at the moment. Things could certainly change by the time we play our next game in 5 days.."

31to6 wrote:it was somewhat surprising Svi didn't play in the preseason opener, but that was a 'full squad' game and you can only go so deep.

To some it may have been surprising. I don't think ti was surprising to the C's coaching staff, though. It was probably intentional.

We'll have a full squad when the reg season opens up, so it would appear there's a good chance Svi won't be playing then - since he didn't play in the preseason game where we had a full squad.

Of course, that could certainly change - as I mentioned in my post..

31to6 wrote:Svi has clearly made an impact once he's gotten onto the court, and my point anyway was that I think he slots right in as backup SG, which puts him in a different 'lane' than Hauser, who I think is locked in as backup SF for now.

Perhaps. But I think that collectively here we sometimes get too caught up with positions that a guy plays.

We're getting deeper and deeper into the era of positionless basketball. Positions these days are really fluid and interchangeable, especially with a switching defense, the need for a secondary ball handler on the floor, etc.

Technically, we didn't really have a "backup 2" last season. We had Brogdon, who throughout his career (and also with the Celtics) has been more of a PG. But of course, he did often play the 2. But I wouldn't necessarily say he was a "backup 2". He was really a combo-guard. D-White probably played more at the 2 last season than Brogdon, but when Smart was out, it was usually White running the point. He too was a combo-guard. Heck, even Smart was the PG a lot, but often times was playing off ball as a 2. They really were all combo-guards. And so was Pritchard when he played - although he was on the bench most of the time - especially when everyone was healthy.

Hauser, while I suppose he could be classified as a "backup SF" I just consider him a wing. A wing can be a 2, a wing can be a 3, a wing can even be a 4.

I'd consider Svi to also be a "wing". But with Svi, he's a wing who can also be a secondary ball handler - whereas Hauser doesn't really offer that kind of versatility.

Svi, Hauser, Banton, Walsh, Stevens and Brissett are all essentially "backup wings". Some of them are bigger, stronger, better rebounders (Stevens, Brissett) while others can operate as a secondary ball handler (Svi, Banton) while some even have the ability to run the point at times (Banton). But all (for the most part) have played the wing position.

Again, positions these days are fluid and pretty interchangeable. Which is why in my post, I didn't break down the players by position - I thought it might be helpful to see all of the players on the team (outside of the core 6) listed in order of total minutes played so far this preseason to simply give a rough idea of the pecking order, at the moment.

One other thing worth noting in the video above with Mazzulla speaking after the Knicks game. Around the 2:50 mark, a reporter asks him what he's looking for from the backup wings and he says "toughness, physicality and IQ". FWIW, he does not say anything about shooting being a requirement.


whether it's '1/2/3/4/5' or 'ballhandlers/wings/bigs' it's still positions -- even slightly more so if you start adding 'combo guard' to it. So: lump Svi in with the combo guards and/or potential ballhandlers, in my opinion. Hauser is a wing. Different skill sets, different potential roles. Stevens and Brissett, as you say, are bigger, stronger, and better rebounders -- I think it's useful to differentiate that using the #4, especially when you start considering who they are going to guard on defense.

But others -- and you -- can disagree.

In terms of pre-season minutes played, one thing I did when coaching and having to make cuts was give the kids on the 'bubble' a lot of run. Give them a chance to show what they can do, check and double-check to see if there's something there you'll regret if you cut him loose. I think that's possibly where Banton's minutes are coming from more than seeing if he can be part of the rotation. Possibly a good developmental prospect (I'm personally a fan), but if the team wanted to free up the 15th roster spot for some reason my guess is that he's the one most on the bubble, especially with Svi stepping in looking like an obvious NBA player.

But I could of course be wrong.
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1630 » by bigfoot_cryptozoology » Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:27 pm

Criminy... I figured there would be a game tonight,
but the 17th.

That's like the 17th...
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1631 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:50 pm

Larry_Russell wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
Larry_Russell wrote:Svi scored more points in 26 fewer minutes than Hauser. Damn.


Now do defense.



Sam opp points of turnover - 8.3
Svi opp points of turnover - 10

Sam opp 2nd chance points - 6.3
Svi opp 2nd chance points - 5

Sam opp points in paint - 20
Svi opp points in paint - 19

Sam DEF WS - 0.056
Svi DEF WS - (0.066)

Sam Def Rating - 102
Svi Def Rating - 118.5

Numbers say that Sam has been better, but Sam has also played an extra game with Tatum, Brown, and that is going to skew things a little


Reasonable point. Though that he's earned the right to play minutes next to guys that play the important minutes in games speaks to the level of trust that he's earned from coaches and his teammates. He's earned that by not only hitting shots but being stout on D when other teams have attempted to target him on that end. They have usually failed when that happens. Like Svi for this team as a deep bench guy but there's definitely a reason why Hauser is far ahead of him.
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1632 » by RB34 » Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:27 pm

Just caught the replay. Some of the defensive sequences from Jrue and White.. my god.

The ball movement leading to open three after open three, inject it into my veins!!
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1633 » by Fierce1 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 12:23 am

RB34 wrote:Just caught the replay. Some of the defensive sequences from Jrue and White.. my god.

The ball movement leading to open three after open three, inject it into my veins!!

That's what happens when players stick to the script and not try to do too much.

And it helps if players shooting the 3 are actually players who are good at shooting the 3.
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1634 » by shackles10 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:19 pm

I hadn’t read any of this thread since games for us started. I didn’t expect you guys to have it to 82 pages for preaseason. Took a lot longer to catch up and impressive work green teamers!
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1635 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:23 pm

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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1636 » by Parliament10 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:53 pm





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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1637 » by zoyathedestroya » Sun Oct 15, 2023 10:15 am

Payton Pritchard leads the league both in total preseason points and points per game (minimum 3 GP).
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1638 » by Hal14 » Mon Oct 16, 2023 1:42 pm

I figure that the last preseason game on thursday will be pretty much a dress rehearsal. Last tune up before the reg season so we'll probably see the actual rotation that Joe will use to open the season. Probably only going like 9 or 10 deep that game, at the most.

Which means this game tomorrow night vs the Knicks is probably the latest chance in game action where the deep bench guys will be able to show what they can do. The Jays have both sat out 2 full preseason games now, so I figure they will play this game. All of our guys have had 6 days off since the last game so everyone should be available for tomorrow night, I would think. But perhaps we'll just see low mins for the core 6 guys - perhaps they'll only play in the 1st half. Or the top 6 guys just sit out the 4th quarter.

There's 6 guys who have no contract beyond training camp or a partially guaranteed deal (stevens, banton, Svi, Kornet, Gabriel, Steward) so I expect those 6 to get some decent minutes in the game tomorrow night. They're literally fighting for a job so it'd be good to get 1 more good look at them in game action to get more of a sample size. Unless perhaps they know Steward won't make the team already so we might not see him much (or at all).
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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1639 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:09 pm

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Re: 2023-24 PRESEASON, Multi-Game Thread – Next: 7:30PM, Tues, Oct, 17 vs Knicks 

Post#1640 » by Parliament10 » Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:40 pm

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