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Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread

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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#61 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:53 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Frichuela wrote:Will Deni see some time as a small-ball 5?



Gallo and Moose shared the court for a bit in the Hornets game. I expect we will see Deni with either/both. Especially since Bilal is looking like he fits just fine with the starters. Rook may have stolen his minutes while he was out with that sore back. I'm interested to see if Deni can develop chemistry with either of the back-up Bigs. Pick up veteran tips. From what it sounds like he instantly clicked with Gallo, in a similar way Kristaps was big brother to him.


So let me get this straight, Deni in the eyes of many on this board has been replaced as a starter based on 1 game against a JV
Australian team and preseason win versus Charlotte, that we only won because of a hugely lopsided 4th quarter, that Bilal and the rest of the starters got blown out when on the floor?
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#62 » by doclinkin » Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:02 pm

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Frichuela wrote:Will Deni see some time as a small-ball 5?



Gallo and Moose shared the court for a bit in the Hornets game. I expect we will see Deni with either/both. Especially since Bilal is looking like he fits just fine with the starters. Rook may have stolen his minutes while he was out with that sore back. I'm interested to see if Deni can develop chemistry with either of the back-up Bigs. Pick up veteran tips. From what it sounds like he instantly clicked with Gallo, in a similar way Kristaps was big brother to him.


So let me get this straight, Deni in the eyes of many on this board has been replaced as a starter based on 1 game against a JV Australian team and preseason win versus Charlotte


Remains to be seen if Deni has been replaced as a starter by the coaching staff.

The question on Deni is who does he play best next to. He is versatile enough to play 3, 4, small-ball 5 -- but aside from his defense that versatility has not led to wins. Does he start? Next to who. Kuzma? Many of us would prefer he play more of Kuzma's minutes, displacing him rather than playing next to him. But as of right now, who do you think the team would start between Kuzma and Deni?

If the answer is Kuzma, you're talking about dividing minutes for Deni at the other forward spot. I've been surprised that Kispert was not even given a sniff of that role. But defensively it only makes sense considering how small we are if Corey is our 3rd player on the wing. That puts us arguing whether Deni or Bilal is likely to start at the 3. As a starter, Deni next to Gafford crowds the floor with players who haven't shown a reliable outside shot. Bilal went 2 for 3 from outside against Charlotte. Small sample size, but he looks comfortable shooting it. Have we ever said that about Deni?

We have ample sample size of Deni playing next to Kuzma. So far that pairing earned us 35 wins, even playing next to 2 (former) all-stars who were coveted by finals contenders. Facts show that under this coach Deni struggled to claim a starting role -- until his competition for the spot was traded. A fact that likely lost the job of the GM who drafted them both.

Which brings up the next point. Deni was drafted by the former front office, any smart coach who wants to keep his job will find developmental minutes to the highly talented player selected by the new team heads. If you had to gamble on the upside of 2 players, 19 year old Bilal with 0 minutes in the league, or Deni who is entering his contract year but whose game has not yet taken 'the leap' -- which guy are you shoving your chips on the table for? If you were daydreaming based on the limited evidence we have: Which guy is more likely to make an All-star game in his career?

Stat heads understand what Deni does best doesn't pop in the box score. It shows up as negative percentages in opponents scoring. Not sexy in highlights. Percentages sell no tickets. Unless the team is winning. But are we likely to win this season? Is that even the goal? Highlights wise, Bilal has had a few blocks in his reel and some high flying dunks. Freeze frame of that will sell a few tickets on hope alone. At the very least we have not yet had occasion to say that Bilal looks timid with the ball, and has been passing it to teammates instead of being aggressive. Westbrook would not have to yell at this kid to shoot it. No knock on Deni and his complete game, team mind set, just saying the energy is different. Like when Deni plays with aggression in Euro ball.

Seems to me this season is about developing talent for the future. Not saying Deni has had his chance. I'm saying that reading the tea leaves, Bilal has done enough to make a case to play next to any group we can put out there. At age 19. The more minutes we can give him early, the higher his upside. He's getting minutes. The only question is whose?

Even if he is not starting, Deni will play. There are minutes behind Kuzma, especially if Gallo is slotting in at center. Deni's versatility means he can slide in at 3&4 where Bilal is probably limited to the wing forward position while he is still learning.

Deni next to either of our outside shooting small ball centers could actually be a good fit. He rebounds well, defends with quick feet, plays a team game, swings the ball to the open man. If either Mus or Gallo is actually hitting an outside shot that frees up the interior for Deni to outquick whatever Big faces up against him. On the other end a line-up that sees some combo of Deni, Johnny D and Delon Wright could add an interesting defensive change of pace.

Show me I'm wrong and I'm happy to learn, but it seems to me the outline of what the coaches are trying to do is right there. They want to get developmental minutes for each of Bilal, Deni, Kispert, Johnny D to see if any of them take a jump. Meanwhile they need to showcase vets for midseason trade. And sell a few tickets off the purported swagger of Poole and Kuzma.

Winning isn't the mission. I just see it as probable that Deni has gotten squeezed to the 2nd line by a young kid who just might sell tickets off his talent and future, in ways that Deni hasn't yet shown.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#63 » by doclinkin » Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:12 pm

Basically yeah. The daydream of Bilal looks brighter than the history of Deni. I'm not saying he deserves to start. I'm saying I think the team is going to sell hard on the dream.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#64 » by Frichuela » Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:18 pm

doclinkin wrote:
CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
doclinkin wrote:

Gallo and Moose shared the court for a bit in the Hornets game. I expect we will see Deni with either/both. Especially since Bilal is looking like he fits just fine with the starters. Rook may have stolen his minutes while he was out with that sore back. I'm interested to see if Deni can develop chemistry with either of the back-up Bigs. Pick up veteran tips. From what it sounds like he instantly clicked with Gallo, in a similar way Kristaps was big brother to him.


So let me get this straight, Deni in the eyes of many on this board has been replaced as a starter based on 1 game against a JV Australian team and preseason win versus Charlotte


Remains to be seen if Deni has been replaced as a starter by the coaching staff.

The question on Deni is who does he play best next to. He is versatile enough to play 3, 4, small-ball 5 -- but aside from his defense that versatility has not led to wins. Does he start? Next to who. Kuzma? Many of us would prefer he play more of Kuzma's minutes, displacing him rather than playing next to him. But as of right now, who do you think the team would start between Kuzma and Deni?

If the answer is Kuzma, you're talking about dividing minutes for Deni at the other forward spot. I've been surprised that Kispert was not even given a sniff of that role. But defensively it only makes sense, considering how small we are if Corey is our 3rd player on the wing. That puts us arguing whether Deni or Bilal is likely to start at the 3. As as starter Deni next to Gafford crowds the floor with players who haven't shown a reliable outside shot. Bilal went 2 for 3 from outside against Charlotte. Small sample size, but he looks comfortable shooting it. Have we ever said that about Deni?

We have ample sample size of Deni playing next to Kuzma. So far that pairing earned us 35 wins, even playing next to 2 (former) all-stars who were coveted by finals contenders. Facts show that under this coach Deni struggled to claim a starting role -- until his competition for the spot was traded. A fact that likely lost the job of the GM who drafted them both.

Which brings up the next point. Deni was drafted by the former front office, any smart coach who wants to keep his job will find developmental minutes to the highly talented player selected by the new team heads. If you had to gamble on the upside of 2 players, 19 year old Bilal with 0 minutes in the league, or Deni who is entering his contract year but whose game has not yet taken 'the leap' -- which guy are you shoving your chips on the table for? If you were daydreaming based on the limited evidence we have: Which guy is more likely to make an All-star game in his career?

Stat heads understand what Deni does best doesn't pop in the box score. It shows up as negative percentages in opponents scoring. Not sexy in highlights. Percentages sell no tickets. Unless the team is winning. But are we likely to win this season? Is that even the goal? Highlights wise, Bilal has had a few blocks in his reel and some high flying dunks. Freeze frame of that will sell a few tickets on hope alone. At the very least we have not yet had occasion to say that Bilal looks timid with the ball, and has been passing it to teammates instead of being aggressive. Westbrook would not have to yell at this kid to shoot it. No knock on Deni and his complete game, team mind set, just saying the energy is different. Like when Deni plays with aggression in Euro ball.

Seems to me this season is about developing talent for the future. Not saying Deni has had his chance. I'm saying that reading the tea leaves, Bilal has done enough to make a case to play next to any group we can put out there. At age 19. The more minutes we can give him early, the higher his upside. He's getting minutes. The only question is whose?

Even if he is not starting, Deni will play. There are minutes behind Kuzma, especially if Gallo is slotting in at center. Deni's versatility means he can slide in at 3&4 where Bilal is probably limited to the wing forward position while he is still learning.

Deni next to either of our outside shooting small ball centers could actually be a good fit. He rebounds well, defends with quick feet, plays a team game, swings the ball to the open man. If either Mus or Gallo is actually hitting an outside shot that frees up the interior for Deni to outquick whatever Big faces up against him. On the other end a line-up that sees some combo of Deni, Johnny D and Delon Wright could add an interesting defensive change of pace.

Show me I'm wrong and I'm happy to learn, but it seems to me the outline of what the coaches are trying to do is right there. They want to get developmental minutes for each of Bilal, Deni, Kispert, Johnny D to see if any of them take a jump. Meanwhile they need to showcase vets for midseason trade. And sell a few tickets off the purported swagger of Poole and Kuzma.

Winning isn't the mission. I just see it probably that Deni has gotten squeezed to the 2nd line by a young kid who just might sell tickets off his talent and future, in ways that Deni hasn't yet shown.


One way Deni could play a lot of minutes despite coming off the bench is for Delon Wright to see very few/no minutes. Under this hypothesis, Tyus and Poole start at the PG/SG but one of them is always on the floor, covering the 48 minutes at PG. And Deni and Kuz are used as secondary ball handlers next to Tyus and or Poole (or vice versa). In summary and in terms of minutes distribution:

Jones (30)/Poole (18)
Poole (16)/Kispert 24/Davis or Shamet (8)
Bilal (28)/Deni (20)
Kuzma (32)/Deni (10)/Gallo (6)
Gafford (30)/Gallo (18)

So, in this scenario Deni would play 30 minutes...despite coming off the bench.

I do not think this happens straight away but maybe a Delon Wright trade is very soon on the cards...
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#65 » by Frichuela » Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:53 pm

Unlucky for Johnny…

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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#66 » by Hibachi_0 » Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:23 am

Frichuela wrote:
One way Deni could play a lot of minutes despite coming off the bench is for Delon Wright to see very few/no minutes. Under this hypothesis, Tyus and Poole start at the PG/SG but one of them is always on the floor, covering the 48 minutes at PG. And Deni and Kuz are used as secondary ball handlers next to Tyus and or Poole (or vice versa). In summary and in terms of minutes distribution:

Jones (30)/Poole (18)
Poole (16)/Kispert 24/Davis or Shamet (8)
Bilal (28)/Deni (20)
Kuzma (32)/Deni (10)/Gallo (6)
Gafford (30)/Gallo (18)

So, in this scenario Deni would play 30 minutes...despite coming off the bench.

I do not think this happens straight away but maybe a Delon Wright trade is very soon on the cards...


I would love to see this. If we could pack Delon + another vet for a half-decent backup center I'd be ecstatic. From a development standpoint, our rotation should look something like what you proposed.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#67 » by leswizards » Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:03 pm

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Frichuela wrote:Will Deni see some time as a small-ball 5?



Gallo and Moose shared the court for a bit in the Hornets game. I expect we will see Deni with either/both. Especially since Bilal is looking like he fits just fine with the starters. Rook may have stolen his minutes while he was out with that sore back. I'm interested to see if Deni can develop chemistry with either of the back-up Bigs. Pick up veteran tips. From what it sounds like he instantly clicked with Gallo, in a similar way Kristaps was big brother to him.


So let me get this straight, Deni in the eyes of many on this board has been replaced as a starter based on 1 game against a JV
Australian team and preseason win versus Charlotte, that we only won because of a hugely lopsided 4th quarter, that Bilal and the rest of the starters got blown out when on the floor?


Not sure Deni has been replaced as the starter, but he has never been that great, and if gallo is anywhere near his career norms, Deni should not be starting anyways.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#68 » by leswizards » Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:17 pm

Some of you are desperate for the wizards to lose and get a top 5 pick. Not me, I think it is an awful way to build a championship team.

Of the last 50 players taken in the top five, who have played at least 1 season, here is the list of players who could be described as either a franchise player or some of you might mock as fools gold: Zion Williamson, DeAndre Ayton, Luka Doncic, Karl Anthony Towns, Joel Embiid, Evan Mobley, Ja Morant, Jaren Jackson, Trae Young, Jayson Tatum, Ben Simmons, Krisaps Porzingis, Otto Porter and Cody Zeller.

That means you have well less than a 50% chance of getting a player like one of the above with a top 5 pick. And well less than 25% chance of getting a player who isn’t derided as being fools gold.

Additionally, no matter how the player turns out, to the average fan, they will have invested their hopes in the player, and the team will have a strong incentive to overpay the player (relative to the player’s ability to produce a championship) because from a business standpoint the player is worth being “overpaid”.

It makes far more sense, to build a team that is capable of winning year in and year out, has a lot of cap space, and has a lot of draft assets. To turn this team into a championship contender, the Wizards need 1 of 2 things to happen. First, team gets lucky later in the draft and gets a franchise quality player. Second, a franchise quality player looks at the Wizards and says the only thing the wizards are missing is him, and he either signs with the Wizards or forces a trade to the Wizards.

Until, we get down to the final roster, I am still not sure which direction management is taking.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#69 » by doclinkin » Tue Oct 17, 2023 5:11 pm

leswizards wrote:Some of you are desperate for the wizards to lose and get a top 5 pick. Not me, I think it is an awful way to build a championship team.


It makes far more sense, to build a team that is capable of winning year in and year out, has a lot of cap space, and has a lot of draft assets.


To turn this team into a championship contender, the Wizards need 1 of 2 things to happen. First, team gets lucky later in the draft and gets a franchise quality player. Second, a franchise quality player looks at the Wizards and says the only thing the wizards are missing is him, and he either signs with the Wizards or forces a trade to the Wizards.

Until, we get down to the final roster, I am still not sure which direction management is taking.


Show me anyone who said Top 5 anything. I don't think either fans or the team are desperate to lose. I think it is a matter of priorities. Our priorities should be in talent acquisition and player development.

We have had an unrealistic and impractical emphasis in the past few decades on trying to win, despite lacking that top talent. We have burned through draft picks with poor talent evaluation, coupled with disinterest/ineptitude in player development. A guy like Deni has lost confidence by being jerked in and out of the line-up, likewise Rui in a do-si-do dance for minutes. We were trying to 'win' so could not afford to let them play through their errors.

This has prevented us from accumulating tradable assets with any true market value. It shouldn't be a surprise to say that high draft picks have more value. Hell check our last draft, we traded assets to move up one spot.

Seems a truism that championship teams have an MVP calibre player on their roster. Some teams in smaller markets can only hope that player falls to them with whatever pick they have. Giannis, Jokic. Some get lucky at the top of the draft and land a player like Stef (who started out an injury risk, so they were able to extend him early on a bargain contract before he ascended to legend status).

If a team looks at their talent and decides they lack that MVP player, then if the goal is a championship, the mission should be talent acquisition and development. A superstar can force a trade, but the player who owns their contract will demand superstar value in return.

Other teams have a legacy and a market where they can recruit the sort of players who can force a trade. Miami has a culture on court, and South Beach off court. LA has all the money. Boston has a legacy. Large market. We have a disinterested market. Legacy of svck. We need to rebuild all of it.

I don't totally disagree. Wins help young players learn. Surrounding young talent with the right vets helps them learn professional habits, a winning mindset. But until the time is right you need to live with some growing pains in young talented prospects. Right now we have zero players who should start on a championship contender. Trying to 'win' right now would be a pointless goal. Win what?

As for what the team is trying to do, I don't even think you will see what they are doing with the final roster. I expect we may showcase veterans the first half of the season, then sell them off for more draft capital. Then the 2nd half of the season will give young players all the time necessary to fight through their mistakes. We have the cap space part locked in right now. We are accumulating draft value. Accepting that losses are part of that equation is just sensible. Landing a top 5 pick isn't a goal, it is just a byproduct of an emphasis on prioritizing the future over right now.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#70 » by BearlyBallin » Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:33 pm

Read on Twitter
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More moves to build the GoGo roster. Both played well last year for the GoGo.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#71 » by long suffrin' boulez fan » Fri Oct 20, 2023 3:59 am

BearlyBallin wrote:
Read on Twitter
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More moves to build the GoGo roster. Both played well last year for the GoGo.


Don’t really get this one. Not a big deal as both are g leaguers, end of the NBA bench types. But I think Bernard has more upside.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#72 » by 9 and 20 » Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:48 pm

A lot of churn happening at the bottom of the roster. No idea what that means, but seems to be a good thing.

Extra two cents - Tommy also was constantly trying to find that diamond in the rough. Not really the same, since Tommy's big problem was ignoring the turd in the tomato soup. That was immediately addressed by Winger, thankfully.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#73 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:44 pm

9 and 20 wrote:...Tommy's big problem was ignoring the turd in the tomato soup....

I don't know what that means, but it's obvious that "Tommy's big problem," pure & simple, was that he couldn't draft.

If he'd drafted well, we'd be one of the best young teams in the league right now. It would have been child's play to come out of his 3 drafts with:

2019
Brandon Clarke
Keldon Johnson

2020
Tyrese Halliburton
Desmond Bane
Xavier Tillman or Tre Jones

2021
Kispert
Herb Jones
Aaron Wiggins or Jericho Sims

2022
Jalen Williams (or Tari Eason)
at least 1 other quality prospect
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#74 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:26 pm

9 and 20 wrote:A lot of churn happening at the bottom of the roster. No idea what that means, but seems to be a good thing.

Extra two cents - Tommy also was constantly trying to find that diamond in the rough. Not really the same, since Tommy's big problem was ignoring the turd in the tomato soup. That was immediately addressed by Winger, thankfully.

Exhibit 10 contracts are nothing. They don't count against the cap or luxtax, and they don't take up a roster spot. It just means that the player can be converted to a two-way player if we want to do so.

They are just filling out the G-League rotation.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#75 » by Kanyewest » Fri Oct 20, 2023 6:01 pm

payitforward wrote:
9 and 20 wrote:...Tommy's big problem was ignoring the turd in the tomato soup....

I don't know what that means, but it's obvious that "Tommy's big problem," pure & simple, was that he couldn't draft.

If he'd drafted well, we'd be one of the best young teams in the league right now. It would have been child's play to come out of his 3 drafts with:

2019
Brandon Clarke
Keldon Johnson

2020
Tyrese Halliburton
Desmond Bane
Xavier Tillman or Tre Jones

2021
Kispert
Herb Jones
Aaron Wiggins or Jericho Sims

2022
Jalen Williams (or Tari Eason)
at least 1 other quality prospect


I agree that's the reason why Shephard; I would also add that t seemed like Shephard maybe perhaps persuaded by ownership never seemed to sell high on players which could have given them draft ammunition like Davis Bertans or Kyle Kuzma.

Not sure it would have been that easy to hit on every pick outside the top 6 - but even hitting on 2-3 of these picks would have changed Tommy's fortune.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#76 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:47 pm

You're right for sure that no one hits on every pick. All the same, most of the moves I list were ones I was calling for, & the few others had strong support from at least one (usually several) of our Board's leading draftniks (Dat2u, doclinkin, Ruzious [whom we all miss: come back Ruzious!]).
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#77 » by Kanyewest » Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:07 pm

payitforward wrote:You're right for sure that no one hits on every pick. All the same, most of the moves I list were ones I was calling for, & the few others had strong support from at least one (usually several) of our Board's leading draftniks (Dat2u, doclinkin, Ruzious [whom we all miss: come back Ruzious!]).


Yeah, I'm surprised how consistently this board hits compared to even the elite GMs.
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#78 » by AFM » Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:12 pm

What happened to Ruzious?
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Re: Official 2023-24 Wizards TRAINING CAMP & PRESEASON Thread 

Post#79 » by payitforward » Sat Oct 21, 2023 3:24 pm

Ruzious had a stroke -- :( -- Spring of '22 I believe. Caused by a high blood pressure problem (if I recall rightly).

He posted a couple of months later -- only a few times. I PM'd him mid July '22 & heard back right away. He wrote that he was leading "a healthier life." He was vacationing on Hilton Head at that time.

His note also mentioned that he'd be posting "soon," but that hasn't happened. For which reason I've been worrying about him.

I'll PM him again & report whatever I hear back.

Done. Hope he checks in soon!

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