Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?

rand · Post #1 » by **rand** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:55 am

In a head to head series with modern rules, which team would win?

Two GOATs has any two players in NBA history at their peak plus three random championship quality roleplayers at their peak like Fisher, KCP, Danny Green, Bruce Bowen, Tayshaun Prince, Boris Diaw, Kevon Looney, etc (no former All-Stars or All-NBAers). You get to pick the position (G, F, or C) the roleplayer comes from but not choose the exact roleplayer from that position.

The other team has five random post-merger players who were All-NBA at least one season in the condition of that season. If they were All-NBA more than once, a random season among their All-NBA seasons is used to set their condition. Seasons in which the All-NBAer won MVP or Finals MVP are disqualified. Two guards, two forwards, and one center will be chosen.

Post-merger was chosen to keep everything in the 3pt era. The full list of players who were All-NBA at least once since the merger can be found below.

Spoiler:

Colbinii · Post #2 » by **Colbinii** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:30 am

I got

John Stockton
Alvin Robertson
Kawhi Leonard
Dan Roundfield
Pau Gasol

I take this team easily over 2 GOATs

Dutchball97 · Post #3 » by **Dutchball97** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:28 pm

Isn't there a bit too much variance on the All-NBA list. Like you could get unlucky get a team like Isaiah Thomas, Jim Paxson, Jaylen Brown, Truck Robinson and DeAndre Jordan. That team wouldn't be able to do much against MJ/LeBron + 3 elite roleplayers but you could also field a full team of top 10 players if you're really lucky.

Looking at the average outcomes though I do think most 5 All-NBA combinations are going to be better than 2 GOATs + roleplayers.

colts18 · Post #4 » by **colts18** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:01 pm

Basically the Shaq+Kobe Lakers vs. the 2004 Pistons

rk2023 · Post #5 » by **rk2023** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:59 pm

colts18 wrote:Basically the Shaq+Kobe Lakers vs. the 2004 Pistons

You mean Kobe and the 04 Pistons vs Shaq’s Lakers?

Statlanta · Post #6 » by **Statlanta** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:20 pm

Jamal Murray
Eddie Jones
Shane Battier
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

I'd take two GOATs

Owly · Post #7 » by **Owly** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:20 pm

Statlanta wrote:Jamal Murray
Eddie Jones
Shane Battier
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar

I'd take two GOATs

Not sure about putting a guy who made a third team all NBA plus 3 all-star games (Jones) in the role player bucket. Suspect the Murray pick is based on the belief playoff Murray is "real", sustainable. And if it is then he probably collars some above "role player level" accolades too.

Owly · Post #8 » by **Owly** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:49 pm

rand wrote:In a head to head series with modern rules, which team would win?

Two GOATs has any pair of players in NBA history at their peak plus three random quality roleplayers at their peak like Fisher, KCP, Danny Green, Bruce Bowen, Boris Diaw, Kevon Looney, etc. You get to pick the position the (G, F, or C) the roleplayer comes from but not choose the exact roleplayer from that position.

The other team has five random post-merger players who were All-NBA at least one season in the condition of that season. If they were All-NBA more than once, a random season among their All-NBA seasons is used to set their condition. Two guards, two forwards, and one center will be chosen.

Post-merger was chosen to keep everything in the 3pt era. The full list of players who were All-NBA at least once since the merger can be found below.
Spoiler:
Adrian Dantley F
Al Horford C
Al Jefferson C
Alex English F
Allen Iverson G
Alonzo Mourning C
Alvin Robertson G
Amar'e Stoudemire C
Andre Drummond C
Andrew Bogut C
Andrew Bynum C
Anfernee Hardaway G
Anthony Davis C
Anthony Davis F
Anthony Mason F
Antonio McDyess F
Baron Davis G
Ben Simmons G
Ben Wallace C
Ben Wallace F
Bernard King F
Bill Walton C
Blake Griffin F
Bob Dandridge F
Brad Daugherty C
Bradley Beal G
Brandon Roy G
Buck Williams F
Carlos Boozer F
Carmelo Anthony F
Charles Barkley F
Chauncey Billups G
Chris Bosh F
Chris Mullin F
Chris Paul G
Chris Webber F
Clyde Drexler G
Dale Ellis G
Damian Lillard G
Dan Roundfield F
David Lee F
David Robinson C
David Thompson F
David Thompson G
De'Aaron Fox G
DeAndre Jordan C
DeMar DeRozan F
DeMar DeRozan G
DeMarcus Cousins C
Dennis Johnson G
Dennis Rodman F
Deron Williams G
Derrick Coleman F
Derrick Rose G
Detlef Schrempf F
Devin Booker G
Dikembe Mutombo C
Dirk Nowitzki C
Dirk Nowitzki F
Domantas Sabonis C
Dominique Wilkins F
Donovan Mitchell G
Draymond Green F
Dražen Petrović G
Dwight Howard C
Dwyane Wade G
Eddie Jones G
Elton Brand F
Elvin Hayes F
Fat Lever G
Gary Payton G
George Gervin G
George McGinnis F
Giannis Antetokounmpo F
Gilbert Arenas G
Glen Rice F
Goran Dragić G
Grant Hill F
Gus Williams G
Hakeem Olajuwon C
Isaiah Thomas G
Isiah Thomas G
Ja Morant G
Jamal Mashburn F
James Harden G
James Worthy F
Jason Kidd G
Jaylen Brown F
Jayson Tatum F
Jermaine O'Neal C
Jermaine O'Neal F
Jim Paxson G
Jimmy Butler F
Jo Jo White G
Joakim Noah C
Joe Dumars G
Joe Johnson G
Joel Embiid C
John Stockton G
John Wall G
Julius Erving F
Julius Randle F
Juwan Howard F
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar C
Karl Malone F
Karl-Anthony Towns C
Kawhi Leonard F
Kemba Walker G
Kevin Durant F
Kevin Garnett F
Kevin Johnson G
Kevin Love F
Kevin McHale F
Kevin Willis F
Klay Thompson G
Kobe Bryant G
Kyle Lowry G
Kyrie Irving G
LaMarcus Aldridge F
Larry Bird F
Larry Johnson F
Latrell Sprewell G
LeBron James F
Luka Dončić G
Magic Johnson G
Manu Ginóbili G
Marc Gasol C
Mark Price G
Marques Johnson F
Maurice Lucas F
Metta World Peace F
Michael Jordan G
Michael Redd G
Mitch Richmond G
Moses Malone C
Nikola Jokić C
Otis Birdsong G
Pascal Siakam F
Patrick Ewing C
Pau Gasol C
Pau Gasol F
Paul George F
Paul Pierce F
Paul Pierce G
Paul Westphal G
Peja Stojaković F
Pete Maravich G
Phil Ford G
Rajon Rondo G
Ralph Sampson F
Ray Allen G
Reggie Miller G
Robert Parish C
Rod Strickland G
Rudy Gobert C
Russell Westbrook G
Sam Cassell G
Scottie Pippen F
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander G
Shaquille O'Neal C
Shawn Kemp F
Shawn Marion F
Sidney Moncrief G
Stephen Curry G
Stephon Marbury G
Steve Nash G
Terry Cummings F
Tim Duncan C
Tim Duncan F
Tim Hardaway G
Tiny Archibald G
Tom Chambers F
Tony Parker G
Tracy McGrady F
Tracy McGrady G
Trae Young G
Truck Robinson F
Tyson Chandler C
Victor Oladipo G
Vin Baker F
Vince Carter F
Walter Davis F
World B. Free G
Yao Ming C
Zach Randolph F

Too much unknown I think
what are benches like?
If you get Petrovic, Sprewell, Mashburn, Sampson, Baker, Jefferson. L Robinson, Ju Howard type guys then you'd feel hard done by.
Alternately, maybe the all NBA team gets multiple "GOAT-y" players.
Where one draws the start and end line on quality role players will be a big issue.

In a probabilistic sense I suppose you'd want to bucket the All-NBA and see how many were that good because if the pool is players not seasons and you're as likely to get Al Jefferson as Kareem then I suppose the All-NBA pool is weaker than one might implicitly think of it by its name.

JLei · Post #9 » by **JLei** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:12 pm

I just did a random and got

Ben Wallace
Anthony Davis
Kevin Durant
Paul Pierce
Pete Maravich

This team would kill 2 GOATs + Role Players IMO.

rand · Post #10 » by **rand** » Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:38 pm

Owly wrote:
rand wrote:In a head to head series with modern rules, which team would win?

Two GOATs has any pair of players in NBA history at their peak plus three random quality roleplayers at their peak like Fisher, KCP, Danny Green, Bruce Bowen, Boris Diaw, Kevon Looney, etc. You get to pick the position the (G, F, or C) the roleplayer comes from but not choose the exact roleplayer from that position.

The other team has five random post-merger players who were All-NBA at least one season in the condition of that season. If they were All-NBA more than once, a random season among their All-NBA seasons is used to set their condition. Two guards, two forwards, and one center will be chosen.

Post-merger was chosen to keep everything in the 3pt era. The full list of players who were All-NBA at least once since the merger can be found below.
Spoiler:
Adrian Dantley F
Al Horford C
Al Jefferson C
Alex English F
Allen Iverson G
Alonzo Mourning C
Alvin Robertson G
Amar'e Stoudemire C
Andre Drummond C
Andrew Bogut C
Andrew Bynum C
Anfernee Hardaway G
Anthony Davis C
Anthony Davis F
Anthony Mason F
Antonio McDyess F
Baron Davis G
Ben Simmons G
Ben Wallace C
Ben Wallace F
Bernard King F
Bill Walton C
Blake Griffin F
Bob Dandridge F
Brad Daugherty C
Bradley Beal G
Brandon Roy G
Buck Williams F
Carlos Boozer F
Carmelo Anthony F
Charles Barkley F
Chauncey Billups G
Chris Bosh F
Chris Mullin F
Chris Paul G
Chris Webber F
Clyde Drexler G
Dale Ellis G
Damian Lillard G
Dan Roundfield F
David Lee F
David Robinson C
David Thompson F
David Thompson G
De'Aaron Fox G
DeAndre Jordan C
DeMar DeRozan F
DeMar DeRozan G
DeMarcus Cousins C
Dennis Johnson G
Dennis Rodman F
Deron Williams G
Derrick Coleman F
Derrick Rose G
Detlef Schrempf F
Devin Booker G
Dikembe Mutombo C
Dirk Nowitzki C
Dirk Nowitzki F
Domantas Sabonis C
Dominique Wilkins F
Donovan Mitchell G
Draymond Green F
Dražen Petrović G
Dwight Howard C
Dwyane Wade G
Eddie Jones G
Elton Brand F
Elvin Hayes F
Fat Lever G
Gary Payton G
George Gervin G
George McGinnis F
Giannis Antetokounmpo F
Gilbert Arenas G
Glen Rice F
Goran Dragić G
Grant Hill F
Gus Williams G
Hakeem Olajuwon C
Isaiah Thomas G
Isiah Thomas G
Ja Morant G
Jamal Mashburn F
James Harden G
James Worthy F
Jason Kidd G
Jaylen Brown F
Jayson Tatum F
Jermaine O'Neal C
Jermaine O'Neal F
Jim Paxson G
Jimmy Butler F
Jo Jo White G
Joakim Noah C
Joe Dumars G
Joe Johnson G
Joel Embiid C
John Stockton G
John Wall G
Julius Erving F
Julius Randle F
Juwan Howard F
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar C
Karl Malone F
Karl-Anthony Towns C
Kawhi Leonard F
Kemba Walker G
Kevin Durant F
Kevin Garnett F
Kevin Johnson G
Kevin Love F
Kevin McHale F
Kevin Willis F
Klay Thompson G
Kobe Bryant G
Kyle Lowry G
Kyrie Irving G
LaMarcus Aldridge F
Larry Bird F
Larry Johnson F
Latrell Sprewell G
LeBron James F
Luka Dončić G
Magic Johnson G
Manu Ginóbili G
Marc Gasol C
Mark Price G
Marques Johnson F
Maurice Lucas F
Metta World Peace F
Michael Jordan G
Michael Redd G
Mitch Richmond G
Moses Malone C
Nikola Jokić C
Otis Birdsong G
Pascal Siakam F
Patrick Ewing C
Pau Gasol C
Pau Gasol F
Paul George F
Paul Pierce F
Paul Pierce G
Paul Westphal G
Peja Stojaković F
Pete Maravich G
Phil Ford G
Rajon Rondo G
Ralph Sampson F
Ray Allen G
Reggie Miller G
Robert Parish C
Rod Strickland G
Rudy Gobert C
Russell Westbrook G
Sam Cassell G
Scottie Pippen F
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander G
Shaquille O'Neal C
Shawn Kemp F
Shawn Marion F
Sidney Moncrief G
Stephen Curry G
Stephon Marbury G
Steve Nash G
Terry Cummings F
Tim Duncan C
Tim Duncan F
Tim Hardaway G
Tiny Archibald G
Tom Chambers F
Tony Parker G
Tracy McGrady F
Tracy McGrady G
Trae Young G
Truck Robinson F
Tyson Chandler C
Victor Oladipo G
Vin Baker F
Vince Carter F
Walter Davis F
World B. Free G
Yao Ming C
Zach Randolph F

Too much unknown I think
what are benches like?
If you get Petrovic, Sprewell, Mashburn, Sampson, Baker, Jefferson. L Robinson, Ju Howard type guys then you'd feel hard done by.
Alternately, maybe the all NBA team gets multiple "GOAT-y" players.
Where one draws the start and end line on quality role players will be a big issue.

In a probabilistic sense I suppose you'd want to bucket the All-NBA and see how many were that good because if the pool is players not seasons and you're as likely to get Al Jefferson as Kareem then I suppose the All-NBA pool is weaker than one might implicitly think of it by its name.

Good call outs.
No benches; 36 minute games.

The All-NBA pool is indeed players, not seasons. Once the player is randomly selected, their All-NBA season is randomly selected. If you get Shaq it might be 1994 Shaq, 2000 Shaq, 2009 Shaq, etc.

I agree that the roleplayers could be problematic but for guidelines no player can be selected that ever made an All-Star or All-NBA team or had a season that was even borderline for either of the above like 2023 Jamal Murray. Shy away from roleplayers with All-Star level talent like Lamar Odom. Use your best judgment.

trelos6 · Post #11 » by **trelos6** » Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:25 am

My random was

Jojo White
David Thompson
Peja Stojakovic
Jermaine O Neal
Rudy Gobert

Gimme the 2 GOAT’s

Saints14 · Post #12 » by **Saints14** » Fri Oct 20, 2023 4:59 pm

With championship level role players I take the GOATs easily. At the highest levels a guy like Danny Green is more valuable than most lesser all stars.

Curry
Danny Green
LeBron
Shane Battier
Brook Lopez

dygaction · Post #13 » by **dygaction** » Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:24 am

JLei wrote:I just did a random and got

Ben Wallace
Anthony Davis
Kevin Durant
Paul Pierce
Pete Maravich

This team would kill 2 GOATs + Role Players IMO.

Kevin Durant is close to a GOAT than an ordinary all-nba.
Might add a restriction that the all-nbas should be 2nd or 3rd team only.

henshao · Post #14 » by **henshao** » Sat Oct 21, 2023 3:24 am

why don't we nail down what a GOATs team looks like, a possible outline would be Lebron + Jordan "carrying" say...Sheed or Camby (Gilmore if we're cheeky), Jason Terry, and someone who can fill holes in the lineup like say Rip or Iguodala

Kingdibs19 · Post #15 » by **Kingdibs19** » Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:26 am

Double

Kingdibs19 · Post #16 » by **Kingdibs19** » Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:26 am

Camby or Tyson Chandler
Lebron
Danny Green or Igoudala
MJ
Fisher

Owly · Post #17 » by **Owly** » Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:10 am

henshao wrote:why don't we nail down what a GOATs team looks like, a possible outline would be Lebron + Jordan "carrying" say...Sheed or Camby (Gilmore if we're cheeky), Jason Terry, and someone who can fill holes in the lineup like say Rip or Iguodala

Op has, admittedly not in the initial post done this, to some extent (i.e. in terms of criteria rather than a specific team).

I agree that the roleplayers could be problematic but for guidelines no player can be selected that ever made an All-Star or All-NBA team or had a season that was even borderline for either of the above like 2023 Jamal Murray. Shy away from roleplayers with All-Star level talent like Lamar Odom. Use your best judgment.

My first glance thought is that none of your role player choices would be eligible, though there isn't an absolute hard line so people can disagree.

Not going to look these up so errors are possible ...
Camby otoh is a never all-star but is among the best "never all-stars" and has a season that would be borderline.
Wallace has accolades
Terry is never all-star but among the top handful of guards not to have been.
Gilmore has accolades (including an MVP in the ABA, but all-stars too in the NBA)
Think the wings have accolades too.

henshao · Post #18 » by **henshao** » Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:06 am

Owly wrote:
henshao wrote:why don't we nail down what a GOATs team looks like, a possible outline would be Lebron + Jordan "carrying" say...Sheed or Camby (Gilmore if we're cheeky), Jason Terry, and someone who can fill holes in the lineup like say Rip or Iguodala

Op has, admittedly not in the initial post done this, to some extent (i.e. in terms of criteria rather than a specific team).

I agree that the roleplayers could be problematic but for guidelines no player can be selected that ever made an All-Star or All-NBA team or had a season that was even borderline for either of the above like 2023 Jamal Murray. Shy away from roleplayers with All-Star level talent like Lamar Odom. Use your best judgment.

My first glance thought is that none of your role player choices would be eligible, though there isn't an absolute hard line so people can disagree.

Not going to look these up so errors are possible ...
Camby otoh is a never all-star but is among the best "never all-stars" and has a season that would be borderline.
Wallace has accolades
Terry is never all-star but among the top handful of guards not to have been.
Gilmore has accolades (including an MVP in the ABA, but all-stars too in the NBA)
Think the wings have accolades too.

well it's a lot easier to say what the team doesn't look like, than what it does

acheck13 · Post #19 » by **acheck13** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:05 am

Role redundancy/ duplication comes into play here, especially given the scoring bias of media voting. Give me a synergistic GOAT caliber duo— Lebron and Curry, for example, with three complementary players, over five very talented players who are used to having the ball in their hands. Major diminishing returns, and are they really better at the ancillary stuff than the guys who make their money on that? Take the “Olympic Melo” shtick— how valuable is Carmelo shooting spot up threes on a team where his medium efficiency floor raiser post-ups or isos aren’t ever going to be really needed. Much more than, say, a guy who’s going to shoot when he should without hesitation and also is an accomplished defender who’s used to playing serious NBA defense like Danny Green? Add in the fact that the ball-primacy stuff is always going to be better in the hands of a GOAT level creator, and I just don’t see your average 5 man all nba team construct winning.

giordunk · Post #20 » by **giordunk** » Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:29 pm

If we're doing two GOATs I think I'd go something like

LeBron James
Danny Green
Shane Battier
???
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Putting LeBron at point should usually give me a mismatch somewhere. Danny Green and Shane Battier are about as good as it gets for role player wings. I think it really depends on where you can draw the line on the 4 position. If I can get an Orlando Rashard Lewis I feel pretty confident about my chances because he's a nasty 3rd option on this team. But you give me like a Robert Horry or something then I'm not so confident. Maybe any high volume shooter stretch 4, if we get lucky we can hide him on someone who is an offensive dud like a Ben Wallace or something.

My random got

Kemba Walker
Kobe Bryant
Latrell Sprewell
Tom Chambers
Dwight Howard

I won't be easy but I think my two GOATs team has a pretty good chance against this team.

In the long run though I do think the 5 random All-NBAers should win over the two goats.

Who wins?