Harden may be coming here?

[TrueLAfan]

This is one of those examples of numbers being technically correct—and yet not really accurate. Yes, Norman Powell shot 24% from 3 (8-33) in the final 20 games the Clippers played. But he was playing injured pretty much the entire time—and was inactive for 11 of those games. At the time, he was rushing to come back early because of PGs injury. We were in a lousy schedule period; six games in 12 days, with two back to backs. Powell played all of them and played … okay. Lousy distance shooting. It’s kind of weird; he compensated for the lack of threes by putting up—and hitting--more mid range shots, which resulted in him going to the line a ton. Yes, he went 5-21 from three in those final six games. But he shot over 51% in those games, and went to the line nearly 7 times a game. His TS% in those last six games was .620. We went 4 and 2.

He was -93 for the year. but—wait. Remember those first 10 games, when he was miserable? When Kawhi was in the “I’m playing, but not starting—but playing … and out!” stage? Powell was -103 in those games. His bad season total is traceable to a small selection of games early.

The playoffs were more problematic. Powell’s overall numbers are good in the sense that a guy with one leg on fire and one in an ice bath averages out to be pretty warm. Powell’s bad games were bad—but his good games were great. And, look … 22 ppg on .608 true shooting—which is what he averaged in the series--is still good. I’m not sold on his +/- either—and that end of that series is an indicator. Powell was a -13 in game 7 and played every minute of that horrifying bad third quarter. He also scored 10 in the fourth, including our last five points that included a pair of free throws to bring us within 2 with a minute to go. He scored 27 on 17 shot attempts. I get what the +/- says; I also watched the game. The collapse in the third was a team collapse. The fourth quarter comeback was the Powell, Batum and Plumlee show. The -13 does not reflect his value or impact.

To me, that game is relative to Harden and the Harden trade. With PG and Kawhi out, Norm was our #1 or #2 scoring option--like Harden. Like Harden, Norm was part of an epic third quarter collapse in Game 7. Like Harden, Powell is among the worst on the team in +/- for the game. But the similarities end there. Harden was almost invisible in the first half of Game 7 with 6 points--the lowest scoring starter on his team, which trailed at 3 at halftime. Powell's 16 points led the Clippers to a 9 point lead. After the trainwreck third quarters for both teams and players, Harden disappeared even further with one shot attempt and no points in the fourth; he watched his team go quietly and didn't do a damn thing about it. Powell scored 10 in less than 10 minutes and put the fear of God into the Suns in those closing minutes. If James Harden in Game 7 had played like Norman Powell did in Game 7, his off season situation would never have happened. Morey would have ponied up. The Sixer fans would have seen he was able to step up and show heart and effort, even after a team blowout in the third quarter. That's why Morey doesn't want him. It's why I don't want him either.

And it's why I'm okay, despite his flaws, with Powell. I’m going with Powell’s biggest problem being inconsistency. I’m also going with a fairly substantial part of the reasons for that inconsistency being out of his hands (injury, weird roster shuffles, coming back too soon). I think Robert Flam’s writeup and analysis of Powell’s season was and is terrific.

https://213hoops.com/2023-clippers-exit-interview-norman-powell/

Basically this: great downhill scorer, lousy rebounder, not a great passer, terrific shooter, meh on D = fairly neutral value relative to contract. He’ll make what he’s worth. If we can get something better for him, great. If not, fine.

[esqtvd]

This is one of those examples of numbers being technically correct—and yet not really accurate. Yes, Norman Powell shot 24% from 3 (8-33) in the final 20 games the Clippers played. But he was playing injured pretty much the entire time—and was inactive for 11 of those games. At the time, he was rushing to come back early because of PGs injury. We were in a lousy schedule period; six games in 12 days, with two back to backs. Powell played all of them and played … okay. Lousy distance shooting. It’s kind of weird; he compensated for the lack of threes by putting up—and hitting--more mid range shots, which resulted in him going to the line a ton. Yes, he went 5-21 from three in those final six games. But he shot over 51% in those games, and went to the line nearly 7 times a game. His TS% in those last six games was .620. We went 4 and 2.

He was -93 for the year. but—wait. Remember those first 10 games, when he was miserable? When Kawhi was in the “I’m playing, but not starting—but playing … and out!” stage? Powell was -103 in those games. His bad season total is traceable to a small selection of games early.

The playoffs were more problematic. Powell’s overall numbers are good in the sense that a guy with one leg on fire and one in an ice bath averages out to be pretty warm. Powell’s bad games were bad—but his good games were great. And, look … 22 ppg on .608 true shooting—which is what he averaged in the series--is still good. I’m not sold on his +/- either—and that end of that series is an indicator. Powell was a -13 in game 7 and played every minute of that horrifying bad third quarter. He also scored 10 in the fourth, including our last five points that included a pair of free throws to bring us within 2 with a minute to go. He scored 27 on 17 shot attempts. I get what the +/- says; I also watched the game. The collapse in the third was a team collapse. The fourth quarter comeback was the Powell, Batum and Plumlee show. The -13 does not reflect his value or impact.

To me, that game is relative to Harden and the Harden trade. With PG and Kawhi out, Norm was our #1 or #2 scoring option--like Harden. Like Harden, Norm was part of an epic third quarter collapse in Game 7. Like Harden, Powell is among the worst on the team in +/- for the game. But the similarities end there. Harden was almost invisible in the first half of Game 7 with 6 points--the lowest scoring starter on his team, which trailed at 3 at halftime. Powell's 16 points led the Clippers to a 9 point lead. After the trainwreck third quarters for both teams and players, Harden disappeared even further with one shot attempt and no points in the fourth; he watched his team go quietly and didn't do a damn thing about it. Powell scored 10 in less than 10 minutes and put the fear of God into the Suns in those closing minutes. If James Harden in Game 7 had played like Norman Powell did in Game 7, his off season situation would never have happened. Morey would have ponied up. The Sixer fans would have seen he was able to step up and show heart and effort, even after a team blowout in the third quarter. That's why Morey doesn't want him. It's why I don't want him either.

And it's why I'm okay, despite his flaws, with Powell. I’m going with Powell’s biggest problem being inconsistency. I’m also going with a fairly substantial part of the reasons for that inconsistency being out of his hands (injury, weird roster shuffles, coming back too soon). I think Robert Flam’s writeup and analysis of Powell’s season was and is terrific.

https://213hoops.com/2023-clippers-exit-interview-norman-powell/

Basically this: great downhill scorer, lousy rebounder, not a great passer, terrific shooter, meh on D = fairly neutral value relative to contract. He’ll make what he’s worth. If we can get something better for him, great. If not, fine.

That's good stuff. I'm not down on Powell as much as exploring why he appears to have little value around the league. He does seem to leak points. More TOs than assists.

As expected, Norman Powell did not contribute a ton else besides scoring for the 2023 Clippers. His 1.8 assists per game were tied for 10th on the team alongside Marcus Morris, which, considering his usage rate, is very low. Powell also chipped in just 2.5 rebounds per game, with a higher rebounding rate than just Eric Gordon and Reggie Jackson among rotation players (all are pitiful rebounders). Defensively, despite his reputation, Powell was below average for the Clippers, as could have been expected after his performance the past couple years. He’s not awful on that end, but a lack of attention to detail off-ball and sheer lack of size (despite his ballyhooed wingspan) on-ball makes him someone who doesn’t offer a whole lot on that end. Still, considering all the scoring, the lack of other stuff isn’t a dealbreaker.

I'm pretty much on the same page as Flom.

...as he’s signed through the 2025-2026 season on fully guaranteed money. Three years and $57.7M for a sixth man in his early 30s is probably not a great contract (it’s not an awful one either), so I’d guess Norm has fairly neutral trade value. Considering his friendship with both Clippers’ stars and his usefulness as a downhill scorer, he almost certainly has more value to the Clippers than to other teams.

[KL2]

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[KL2]

I’m so sick of this. Wish the Clippers would move on.

According to Sam Amick the Clippers will not part with Mann and 2 first picks.

Morey has accused the Clippers of being unserious about getting a deal done.

Harden believes the Clippers have given a more than adequate offer to trade for him.

Morey wants a deal done because he can move on to other trades that would net a first round pick for Mann and a star for the Sixers.

[Bobbymcgee]

If the Clippers plan to extend Leonard and George then I want to see the Clippers trade for Harden because Leonard and George aren't enough to get by Denver. The Clippers need to do something to try and get better.

[nickhx2]

i mean, clips have morey bent over barrel here, so i don't think it should bother us at all if they're keeping negotiations alive. it seems pretty clear mann's not going anywhere, the clips are the only bidders, and morey's just throwing a tantrum if he's gonna be accusing the team of acting in bad faith, when all this was due to his own actions anyway (obviously based off of harden's unreliability). i mean let's be real, this is a guy who historically has smashed other GM's in lopsided trades, so it sure seems to me this is more about him not being able to do so for the umpteenth time.

it should seem very clear to any outside observer that harden does not want to go back, he doesn't care about money lost while sitting out, and he's willing to do whatever it takes to exit his situation. morey, however, seems unable to accurately update his own valuation of what he has on hand, and because his reality is distorted over what he thinks he can get vs what the reality ACTUALLY is, he's making noise over it. which is actually fairly meaningless to us.

impact aside of the objective value gained/lost by trading assets for harden itself, the team doesn't really have much to lose to let morey cry himself to sleep before giving in. cry more, or don't, give in or don't: it seems like the team really doesn't care what he does and that's totally ok.

[Wammy Giveaway]

Morey remembered how Clippers helped him with the reverse Chris Paul farm trade in the 2017-18 season, which ended up in another conference finals berth for Rockets in exchange for Clippers missing the playoffs completely. He thinks he can do it again, only this time he's on the Clippers side of the deal, the one who's giving up Chris Paul for pieces instead of trading pieces to receive him. The advantage here is Clippers, but Morey will try to find a way to spin it in his favor. Short of that, he wants Clippers to suffer: a bad start to the season, injuries, distractions, and ejections to their star players.

I made this prediction in the General Board: Clippers will need to start the season with a 10-0 run while avoiding injuries, distractions and ejections to Leonard and George for Morey to accept the deal as is. If Clippers have a 5-5 record or worse, and bad things are happening to them, even with a good record, Clippers will be forced to give up Mann. If Leonard or George get ejected from a game, Morey will demand the duo be broken up as condition to getting Harden, in addition to the Mann version of the proposed package. Their 10th game will be vs. Nuggets.

[madmaxmedia]

This is one of those examples of numbers being technically correct—and yet not really accurate. Yes, Norman Powell shot 24% from 3 (8-33) in the final 20 games the Clippers played. But he was playing injured pretty much the entire time—and was inactive for 11 of those games. At the time, he was rushing to come back early because of PGs injury. We were in a lousy schedule period; six games in 12 days, with two back to backs. Powell played all of them and played … okay. Lousy distance shooting. It’s kind of weird; he compensated for the lack of threes by putting up—and hitting--more mid range shots, which resulted in him going to the line a ton. Yes, he went 5-21 from three in those final six games. But he shot over 51% in those games, and went to the line nearly 7 times a game. His TS% in those last six games was .620. We went 4 and 2.

He was -93 for the year. but—wait. Remember those first 10 games, when he was miserable? When Kawhi was in the “I’m playing, but not starting—but playing … and out!” stage? Powell was -103 in those games. His bad season total is traceable to a small selection of games early.

The playoffs were more problematic. Powell’s overall numbers are good in the sense that a guy with one leg on fire and one in an ice bath averages out to be pretty warm. Powell’s bad games were bad—but his good games were great. And, look … 22 ppg on .608 true shooting—which is what he averaged in the series--is still good. I’m not sold on his +/- either—and that end of that series is an indicator. Powell was a -13 in game 7 and played every minute of that horrifying bad third quarter. He also scored 10 in the fourth, including our last five points that included a pair of free throws to bring us within 2 with a minute to go. He scored 27 on 17 shot attempts. I get what the +/- says; I also watched the game. The collapse in the third was a team collapse. The fourth quarter comeback was the Powell, Batum and Plumlee show. The -13 does not reflect his value or impact.

To me, that game is relative to Harden and the Harden trade. With PG and Kawhi out, Norm was our #1 or #2 scoring option--like Harden. Like Harden, Norm was part of an epic third quarter collapse in Game 7. Like Harden, Powell is among the worst on the team in +/- for the game. But the similarities end there. Harden was almost invisible in the first half of Game 7 with 6 points--the lowest scoring starter on his team, which trailed at 3 at halftime. Powell's 16 points led the Clippers to a 9 point lead. After the trainwreck third quarters for both teams and players, Harden disappeared even further with one shot attempt and no points in the fourth; he watched his team go quietly and didn't do a damn thing about it. Powell scored 10 in less than 10 minutes and put the fear of God into the Suns in those closing minutes. If James Harden in Game 7 had played like Norman Powell did in Game 7, his off season situation would never have happened. Morey would have ponied up. The Sixer fans would have seen he was able to step up and show heart and effort, even after a team blowout in the third quarter. That's why Morey doesn't want him. It's why I don't want him either.

And it's why I'm okay, despite his flaws, with Powell. I’m going with Powell’s biggest problem being inconsistency. I’m also going with a fairly substantial part of the reasons for that inconsistency being out of his hands (injury, weird roster shuffles, coming back too soon). I think Robert Flam’s writeup and analysis of Powell’s season was and is terrific.

https://213hoops.com/2023-clippers-exit-interview-norman-powell/

Basically this: great downhill scorer, lousy rebounder, not a great passer, terrific shooter, meh on D = fairly neutral value relative to contract. He’ll make what he’s worth. If we can get something better for him, great. If not, fine.

That's good stuff. I'm not down on Powell as much as exploring why he appears to have little value around the league. He does seem to leak points. More TOs than assists.

As expected, Norman Powell did not contribute a ton else besides scoring for the 2023 Clippers. His 1.8 assists per game were tied for 10th on the team alongside Marcus Morris, which, considering his usage rate, is very low. Powell also chipped in just 2.5 rebounds per game, with a higher rebounding rate than just Eric Gordon and Reggie Jackson among rotation players (all are pitiful rebounders). Defensively, despite his reputation, Powell was below average for the Clippers, as could have been expected after his performance the past couple years. He’s not awful on that end, but a lack of attention to detail off-ball and sheer lack of size (despite his ballyhooed wingspan) on-ball makes him someone who doesn’t offer a whole lot on that end. Still, considering all the scoring, the lack of other stuff isn’t a dealbreaker.

I'm pretty much on the same page as Flom.

...as he’s signed through the 2025-2026 season on fully guaranteed money. Three years and $57.7M for a sixth man in his early 30s is probably not a great contract (it’s not an awful one either), so I’d guess Norm has fairly neutral trade value. Considering his friendship with both Clippers’ stars and his usefulness as a downhill scorer, he almost certainly has more value to the Clippers than to other teams.

Norm is not Bad Porn, but he's not great porn either.

(and I agree with everything said here. Still a nice pickup given what we gave up, so that's fine.)

[madmaxmedia]

There has been some discrepancy in the couple of recent reports on Philly's asking price for Harden- is it:
1. Two 1st's plus Mann
2. Two 1sts, or one 1st plus Mann

If it's scenario #1, then I'm not surprised Clippers are not engaging very actively. If it's #2, I still don't mind playing hard to get but feel like it's close enough that we could get something done sooner than later.

Whatever good Harden can bring to the team, adding him at ASB is going to seriously blunt his impact IMO.

[esqtvd]

lol


James Harden works harder than anyone at avoiding hard work

The Beard continues to be untrustworthy, intellectually dishonest and an overall bad teammate. And those are his good qualities, at this point

James Harden usually waits until the spring to vanish. Whenever you need him most, he’s gone. In a tense series game, you can always count on Harden bouncing when the going gets tough.

After saying the right things last week, Harden failed to show up for several practices, including Wednesday and Monday’s preseason contest. I could pretend to be shocked, but this is par for the course.

https://deadspin.com/james-harden-philadelphia-76ers-daryl-morey-joel-embid-1850939769

[KL2]

There has been some discrepancy in the couple of recent reports on Philly's asking price for Harden- is it:
1. Two 1st's plus Mann
2. Two 1sts, or one 1st plus Mann

If it's scenario #1, then I'm not surprised Clippers are not engaging very actively. If it's #2, I still don't mind playing hard to get but feel like it's close enough that we could get something done sooner than later.

Whatever good Harden can bring to the team, adding him at ASB is going to seriously blunt his impact IMO.

I’m seeing 2 firsts, a future first swap, Mann, and expiring contracts. Morey supposedly has deals lined up after that will net him a first for Mann. The Clippers supposedly are trying to get picks elsewhere but Morey wants the Clipper picks only. Mann seems to be the deal breaker on both sides which I find hilarious but whatever.

[Kelphus]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/273338/Ty-Lue-Says-Terance-Mann-Is-Staying-With-Clippers

[madmaxmedia]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/273338/Ty-Lue-Says-Terance-Mann-Is-Staying-With-Clippers

Usually that means the player is gone the next day LOL (hopefully not.)

[KL2]

I posted it in the camp thread but Mann was just named the 5th starter so yeah he’s here for now.

[The High Cyde]

Hell yeah, down to roll with this squad. Expecting great things from Mann as a starter this season, we’re gonna need every ounce of his energy and hustle.

[nickhx2]

took way too long to make the obvious choice with mann over morris but hey, take what you get in sports i suppose

[esqtvd]

took way too long to make the obvious choice with mann over morris but hey, take what you get in sports i suppose

Only possible because Russ came in to run the point. It was Reggie over Mann, not Morris over Mann. For the brief time between dumping Reggie and signing Westbrook, Mann took over point guard. But he played side-by-side with Mook, not instead of him.

Although the results were good, Kawhi and Paul George were dissatisfied at having to take up the slack at PG, and pushed for signing Russ.

[Bobbymcgee]

So Terrance Mann is the Clippers starting power forward now?

I just don't see this team getting it done and getting past the Nuggets or Suns in the playoffs. Maybe not even the Lakers or Warriors either. The Clippers are too small and still lacking another star player in case Leonard or George miss time. I had hoped that would of been Powell based on his stats with the Raptors and Blazers but he has been pretty disappointing so far with the Clippers.

Is Lue going to actually play Covington at least this season? Zu and Batum are going to get gassed by the all-star break if they are the only guys playing PF and C.

I figured at least with Harden the Clippers could emulate somewhat what the Suns are trying to do in Phoenix.

At least Bones Hyland has looked good. Wish some of the other young Clippers came into preseason as ready as him.

[esqtvd]

thoroughly average

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[ejftw]

Whether you list Mann, Kawhi or PG as the SG/SF/PF it's thoroughly irrelevant as they'll switch around.

Part of me thought KJ would get the nod.