Thinking Basketball ep.6 Manu ginobili

[nikster]

James Harden isn't any of those things. He's an overconfident one dimensional diva who would have been a pretty good player if he had done two things
Either play like his debut season in Houston (as a traditional shooting guard with extra duties when needed) or play as a traditional point guard (like he's been doing in Philly) without all the extra weight.

This guy dribbled the air out of the ball for a decade, made a GM dare to compare him with MJ(Morey you fool) and of course didn't win anything of importance (not even made a finals appearance without KD) in 3 different teams which were built as he wished.

Ginobili was a far superior team player, a role model and someone you would feel proud if your kids looked up to him.

As for the PF thread. The other options to fill the 10th nomination were draymond green, chris webber, anthony davis, shawn kemp or lamarcus aldridge? I guess so.
None of these guys was more impactful than Rodman.

Rodman more impactful than AD, Kemp, LA and Webber lol. What a funny place this is, I think I’ll just see myself out and leave you guys to it so you can keep calling role players more impactful than NBA superstars. All the NBA GMs would no doubt agree with you all of course.

Rodman wasn't a common role player.
He was the best rebounder in history and the best defender on a team that had Pippen and Jordan.
If you asked all the NBA GMs today you bet they would agree. See what draymond green did for the warriors.

Dray is a far superior offensive player who could somewhat stretch the floor and was one of the best passers for his position, while Rodman was a massive liability offensively outside his rebounding. I doubt a single GM is taking Rodman over AD lol, that's ridiculous

[KGtabake]

Rodman more impactful than AD, Kemp, LA and Webber lol. What a funny place this is, I think I’ll just see myself out and leave you guys to it so you can keep calling role players more impactful than NBA superstars. All the NBA GMs would no doubt agree with you all of course.

Rodman wasn't a common role player.
He was the best rebounder in history and the best defender on a team that had Pippen and Jordan.
If you asked all the NBA GMs today you bet they would agree. See what draymond green did for the warriors.

Dray is a far superior offensive player who could somewhat stretch the floor and was one of the best passers for his position, while Rodman was a massive liability offensively outside his rebounding. I doubt a single GM is taking Rodman over AD lol, that's ridiculous

Outside his rebounding??
Rodman could guard Jordan as well as Karl Malone.
I would love to hear you saying the same about AD.
The bulls don't 3 pit with AD instead of Rodman and the bad boys pistons don't take 2.
"Ridiculous". lol

[Doctor MJ]

I've seen posters try to make arguments that Manu was actually the best player in the league in 05. That's where I start drawing lines and say it's gone way too far. I think "superstar in his role" is the best descriptor.

Manu was one of a kind though. Good video.

[nikster]

Rodman wasn't a common role player.
He was the best rebounder in history and the best defender on a team that had Pippen and Jordan.
If you asked all the NBA GMs today you bet they would agree. See what draymond green did for the warriors.

Dray is a far superior offensive player who could somewhat stretch the floor and was one of the best passers for his position, while Rodman was a massive liability offensively outside his rebounding. I doubt a single GM is taking Rodman over AD lol, that's ridiculous

Outside his rebounding??
Rodman could guard Jordan as well as Karl Malone.
I would love to hear you saying the same about AD.
The bulls don't 3 pit with AD instead of Rodman and the bad boys pistons don't take 2.
"Ridiculous". lol

I specifically said offensively.

Rodman was so valued by GMs back then Bulls got him for Will purdue lol. I'm sure GMs are taking him over a top 10 player who's play style on both ends of the floor fit Pippen/Jordan. No amount of off court drama would make AD worth so little.

[picc]

Manu Ginobili real plus minus Throughout prime with league rank

2005: 6.9- 5th

2006: 6.8- 6th

2007: 7.8 -4th (mostly off bench)

2008: 8.3-3rd (mostly off bench)

2010: 6.7-4th

2011: 5.4-5th (starter)

Just a role playing 6th man though. Sure.

Theres multiple advanced stats that he ranks very highly in btw. This isn't the only one.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Yes, but like with all on/off related stats, context is key. Manu's remarkable plus minus stats are mostly bolstered by his defensive rpm, which averaged around +1.8 his prime years ('05-'08). Often better than many premier stoppers and rim protectors.

We can watch Manu and see that he's an effective defender on both the team and man level. But he was never one of the Spurs two, or even three primary defensive players. The Spurs' having such strong defensive personnel (particularly a DPOY candidate in the frontcourt, and Bowen/Kawhi on the wing), coaching that emphasized the defensive system, and well-distributed offensive load (again, allowing players to expend more energy in bursts and pick spots), etc. was as much responsible for Ginobili's bolstered marks than actual outlier defensive contribution.

As a corollary for all-nba level wing players, take Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, before the Celtics big 3 era vs after.

Pierce DRPM, '02-'07: -0.8
Pierce DRPM, '08-'12: +1.2

Allen DRPM, '01-'07: -0.8
Allen DRPM, '08-'12: +0.8

Despite neither improving as defensive players, and in fact getting older, their DRPM saw significant boosts during the big 3 era due to the same factors I described of the Spurs above.

Further, note the inverse correlation between Manu's DRPM during Duncan's prime/offensive primacy, and afte Duncan aged out of his prime and Parker/Ginobili took offensive primacy.

Manu DRPM, '05-'08: +1.8
Manu DRPM, '09-'13: -1.4

Almost nothing in on/off is static. Most of it is context/circumstance dependent, which is why it's not meant to be a "player comparison" tool.

What's the purpose of this? It's not to denigrate Manu as a defensive player. Far from it. He was a good team and man defender, and awesomely clutch. But plus/minus stats can be the basis for extraordinary statements with him that aren't particularly context-conscious for "why" they are what they are. And if any player needs context applied to them, its a low minute, (literal) 6th man who played on the most balanced, structured and well-coached team of the 21st century.

Knowing this, it's perfectly fine to point to Manu's +/- data and interpret it as the blueprint of a star/all-nba level player. He was obviously that, and no one watching at the time thought any different even with his minute limitation.

What we should temper, however, is taking this data and using it to make projections about what kind of player he would be in different circumstances. Or even less reliably, vis a vis other players who were already doing so. "Manu was the [xth] ranked player by RPM/RAPM this year, so he was the [xth] best player" just isn't how it works.

(I know you didn't say that, btw, just pointing out +/- stats are never face value, and even less so with a player like him).

[canada_dry]

Manu Ginobili real plus minus Throughout prime with league rank

2005: 6.9- 5th

2006: 6.8- 6th

2007: 7.8 -4th (mostly off bench)

2008: 8.3-3rd (mostly off bench)

2010: 6.7-4th

2011: 5.4-5th (starter)

Just a role playing 6th man though. Sure.

Theres multiple advanced stats that he ranks very highly in btw. This isn't the only one.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Yes, but like with all on/off related stats, context is key. Manu's remarkable plus minus stats are mostly bolstered by his defensive rpm, which averaged around +1.8 his prime years ('05-'08). Often better than many premier stoppers and rim protectors.

We can watch Manu and see that he's an effective defender on both the team and man level. But he was never one of the Spurs two, or even three primary defensive players. The Spurs' having such strong defensive personnel (particularly a DPOY candidate in the frontcourt, and Bowen/Kawhi on the wing), coaching that emphasized the defensive system, and well-distributed offensive load (again, allowing players to expend more energy in bursts and pick spots), etc. was as much responsible for Ginobili's bolstered marks than actual outlier defensive contribution.

As a corollary for all-nba level wing players, take Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, before the Celtics big 3 era vs after.

Pierce DRPM, '02-'07: -0.8
Pierce DRPM, '08-'12: +1.2

Allen DRPM, '01-'07: -0.8
Allen DRPM, '08-'12: +0.8

Despite neither improving as defensive players, and in fact getting older, their DRPM saw significant boosts during the big 3 era due to the same factors I described of the Spurs above.

Further, note the inverse correlation between Manu's DRPM during Duncan's prime/offensive primacy, and afte Duncan aged out of his prime and Parker/Ginobili took offensive primacy.

Manu DRPM, '05-'08: +1.8
Manu DRPM, '09-'13: -1.4

Almost nothing in on/off is static. Most of it is context/circumstance dependent, which is why it's not meant to be a "player comparison" tool.

What's the purpose of this? It's not to denigrate Manu as a defensive player. Far from it. He was a good team and man defender, and awesomely clutch. But plus/minus stats can be the basis for extraordinary statements with him that aren't particularly context-conscious for "why" they are what they are. And if any player needs context applied to them, its a low minute, (literal) 6th man who played on the most balanced, structured and well-coached team of the 21st century.

Knowing this, it's perfectly fine to point to Manu's +/- data and interpret it as the blueprint of a star/all-nba level player. He was obviously that, and no one watching at the time thought any different even with his minute limitation.

What we should temper, however, is taking this data and using it to make projections about what kind of player he would be in different circumstances. Or even less reliably, vis a vis other players who were already doing so. "Manu was the [xth] ranked player by RPM/RAPM this year, so he was the [xth] best player" just isn't how it works.

(I know you didn't say that, btw, just pointing out +/- stats are never face value, and even less so with a player like him).

While what you're saying is a good word of caution about the stat... but i did mention there was multiple other advanced stats that he also ranked highly in. I just chose one as to show some work behind the takes, yanno?

How about per? Bpm? Vorp? Ws/48? Or offensive stats like offensive win shares? Offensive box plus minus?

Ranks very highly in all of these as well. I mean i can list it too it just would have been a longer post than I'd have liked lol. How do we explain that? For his prime years? Ranked prettyyyy highly in all of the above whether they were defensive stats, offensive stats, or overall stats. I know you mentioned he was a star player so im not coming at you directly but yeah.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[picc]

While what you're saying is a good word of caution about the stat... but i did mention there was multiple other advanced stats that he also ranked highly in. I just chose one as to show some work behind the takes, yanno?

How about per? Bpm? Vorp? Ws/48? Or offensive stats like offensive win shares? Offensive box plus minus?

Ranks very highly in all of these as well. I mean i can list it too it just would have been a longer post than I'd have liked lol. How do we explain that? For his prime years? Ranked prettyyyy highly in all of the above whether they were defensive stats, offensive stats, or overall stats. I know you mentioned he was a star player so im not coming at you directly but yeah.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I don't think we "explain it" at all. He wouldn't be standing out in any stats if he wasn't an amazing player. There's no need to break down every one of his impact stats if what we're gleaning from them is the truth -- that he was a great player who despite his limitations had star level impact when he played.

All I'm doing is providing context for why we should leave it at "yes, Manu was great, especially in his role", and not extrapolate it to "Manu was actually one of the greatest players ever and we just didn't know it."

[Zombiesonics]

ive always maintained that him in 05 vs Detroit was the one of the best performances i've seen from a basketball player. He was unstoppable and seemed to hit every shot, stats seem to check out too.

[canada_dry]

While what you're saying is a good word of caution about the stat... but i did mention there was multiple other advanced stats that he also ranked highly in. I just chose one as to show some work behind the takes, yanno?

How about per? Bpm? Vorp? Ws/48? Or offensive stats like offensive win shares? Offensive box plus minus?

Ranks very highly in all of these as well. I mean i can list it too it just would have been a longer post than I'd have liked lol. How do we explain that? For his prime years? Ranked prettyyyy highly in all of the above whether they were defensive stats, offensive stats, or overall stats. I know you mentioned he was a star player so im not coming at you directly but yeah.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I don't think we "explain it" at all. He wouldn't be standing out in any stats if he wasn't an amazing player. There's no need to break down every one of his impact stats if what we're gleaning from them is the truth -- that he was a great player who despite his limitations had star level impact when he played.

All I'm doing is providing context for why we should leave it at "yes, Manu was great, especially in his role", and not extrapolate it to "Manu was actually one of the greatest players ever and we just didn't know it."

See but thats the thing. The rhetoric around Ginobili nowadays is elite role player. Good 6th man. Its not legit all nba level guy that accepted a lesser role because hes extremely unselfish and team first.

How good he really was needs to be talked about .

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[picc]

See but thats the thing. The rhetoric around Ginobili nowadays is elite role player. Good 6th man. Its not legit all nba level guy that accepted a lesser role because hes extremely unselfish and team first.

How good he really was needs to be talked about .

Really? I haven't seen anyone say that. At least not on this board.

The consensus on him has pretty much always been that he's in that all-nba, "just below superstar" range. If there are actually people calling him a role player, that's pretty insane.

[Yoshun]

There are as many people in this thread saying "severely underrated" as people saying "overrated."

I think that speaks to the kind of player he was.

[gottamakeit]

So I'll jump in and agree with you that "hairpulling" is an accurate adjective to describe how everyone saw Ginobili, to the point where Robert Horry said that the Spurs would have won 10 titles if Ginobili just did what he was told instead of improvising.

For context, Horry made the statement as a retort to Pierce. It certainly wasn't a well thought out statement.

Pierce "Dream is lucky Jordan retired. You would only have five rings if Jordan didn’t retire,"

Horry's replied "Let me just say this: You got yours because, if Manu Ginobili would have did the things he was supposed to do, I would have had like 10 championships,"

[canada_dry]

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[canada_dry]

See but thats the thing. The rhetoric around Ginobili nowadays is elite role player. Good 6th man. Its not legit all nba level guy that accepted a lesser role because hes extremely unselfish and team first.

How good he really was needs to be talked about .

Really? I haven't seen anyone say that. At least not on this board.

The consensus on him has pretty much always been that he's in that all-nba, "just below superstar" range. If there are actually people calling him a role player, that's pretty insane.

Not as much on this board (though you do see it) i mean moreso on other platforms online. They probably remember old bald spot manu rather than long flowing hair manu. Ive seen him talked about very dismissively moreso than not , especially outside of real gm. "Just a sixth man" etc etc.


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[BarbaGrizz]

Top 3 most resourceful players ever

[ghillphx]

Most underrated player ever, not even close.

Some of you need to learn what underrated actually means. This dude got tons of attention and is in the Hall of Fame. Quit throwing around the word like it's nothing.

[PushDaRock]

Crazy to think he never averaged 20 a game in a season but then equally nuts that he only played more than 30 mpg once in his career.

[WillyJakkz]

I remember getting heavily criticized by my brother when I argued Manu was the 2nd best SG in the League behind Kobe but ahead of Wade during the 2000s.

Post Heatles and when their careers were pretty much over he looked at me and you know what, you might be right.

He didn't cosign it but it wasn't outrageous to him any longer to think that.

[dhsilv2]

I'm not sure I ever saw a game where Manu was nowhere to be found unless he was hurt. Manu is the KING of finding ways to help his team no matter what.

That post you guys are all responding to is foolish of course, and I guess even after all these years I’m super sour about it and that’s why i remember it so well but Ginobli definitely did choke that one game.

.

Nothing foolish about it kid. Manu is disgustingly overrated and calling him the "MVP" of those teams is ludicrous.

Why do people call grown men kid? What are you 16? Anyway, the video was arguing that Manu was the offensive key to the spurs, not the best player. There's a HUGE difference here. And there's a good case that manu was the offensive engine for the spurs for a time.

[dhsilv2]

Manu Ginobili real plus minus Throughout prime with league rank

2005: 6.9- 5th

2006: 6.8- 6th

2007: 7.8 -4th (mostly off bench)

2008: 8.3-3rd (mostly off bench)

2010: 6.7-4th

2011: 5.4-5th (starter)

Just a role playing 6th man though. Sure.

Theres multiple advanced stats that he ranks very highly in btw. This isn't the only one.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Yes, but like with all on/off related stats, context is key. Manu's remarkable plus minus stats are mostly bolstered by his defensive rpm, which averaged around +1.8 his prime years ('05-'08). Often better than many premier stoppers and rim protectors.

We can watch Manu and see that he's an effective defender on both the team and man level. But he was never one of the Spurs two, or even three primary defensive players. The Spurs' having such strong defensive personnel (particularly a DPOY candidate in the frontcourt, and Bowen/Kawhi on the wing), coaching that emphasized the defensive system, and well-distributed offensive load (again, allowing players to expend more energy in bursts and pick spots), etc. was as much responsible for Ginobili's bolstered marks than actual outlier defensive contribution.

As a corollary for all-nba level wing players, take Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, before the Celtics big 3 era vs after.

Pierce DRPM, '02-'07: -0.8
Pierce DRPM, '08-'12: +1.2

Allen DRPM, '01-'07: -0.8
Allen DRPM, '08-'12: +0.8

Despite neither improving as defensive players, and in fact getting older, their DRPM saw significant boosts during the big 3 era due to the same factors I described of the Spurs above.

Further, note the inverse correlation between Manu's DRPM during Duncan's prime/offensive primacy, and afte Duncan aged out of his prime and Parker/Ginobili took offensive primacy.

Manu DRPM, '05-'08: +1.8
Manu DRPM, '09-'13: -1.4

Almost nothing in on/off is static. Most of it is context/circumstance dependent, which is why it's not meant to be a "player comparison" tool.

What's the purpose of this? It's not to denigrate Manu as a defensive player. Far from it. He was a good team and man defender, and awesomely clutch. But plus/minus stats can be the basis for extraordinary statements with him that aren't particularly context-conscious for "why" they are what they are. And if any player needs context applied to them, its a low minute, (literal) 6th man who played on the most balanced, structured and well-coached team of the 21st century.

Knowing this, it's perfectly fine to point to Manu's +/- data and interpret it as the blueprint of a star/all-nba level player. He was obviously that, and no one watching at the time thought any different even with his minute limitation.

What we should temper, however, is taking this data and using it to make projections about what kind of player he would be in different circumstances. Or even less reliably, vis a vis other players who were already doing so. "Manu was the [xth] ranked player by RPM/RAPM this year, so he was the [xth] best player" just isn't how it works.

(I know you didn't say that, btw, just pointing out +/- stats are never face value, and even less so with a player like him).

RPM is not calculated DRPM + ORPM = RPM. RPM is calculated first and then the O and D parts are calculated. RPM is more accurate than the D or the O portion. This means someone could get too much or little credit on the O or D. You can't criticize the more accurate measure by pointing out the less accurate measure.