SEASON OPENER – Celtics @ Knicks – Wed. 7:00PM, Oct. 25, 2023

[Fierce1]

The 2023 finals was an example of how offense wins championships.

Miami beat the #1 seed Bucks and went on to beat the Knicks and Celtics with great defense.

But Miami's great defense was no match for the great offense of Denver.

The Celts were too reliant on the 3-point shot in the past.

That's not the case starting this season.

[BK_2020]

Miami was held to pathetically low 106 Offensive Rating. Denver either played magnificent defense or Miami was a crap lucky team that we all knew they were.

[Joshyjess]

Definitely! I also kind of got the feeling that Joe wanted to make a point of showing that it was now his team, and rather than just following in Udoka's shadow of focusing so much on defense, he wanted to try some different things. It just felt like he deliberatly took a good deal of the focus off of the defensive side of the ball last year. Near the end of the season there did seem to be more of a renewed focus on the defensive side, though, so hopefully this year he'll put more emphasis on it again.

We were the 3rd ranked defense in the league last season.

Weren't the Cs #1 in defense back in 2022?

The problem of the Cs the last few years is offense.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. They went from being a juggernaut on Defense under Udoka (and that was their identity) to being a historically elite offensive team at the beginning of the year under Mazulla (while giving up huge scores to other teams, with almost no real focus on defense at first) until their offense came back down to earth, then they realized that they needed to start playing better defense again, but it kind of left them without any real identity (streaky offensive team, occassionaly great defensive team) and they got exposed by the Heat in the PO's because of it.
I'm hoping to see a great balanced team this year, being in the top 5 in both Offense and Defense all season, and let that become thier identity - the best well-rounded team in the league. Not solely depending on shots falling, but a team that can shut you down on one side, and score consistently on the other.
Hopefully this game on Wed. will set the standard for what they can do this season.

[Fierce1]

We were the 3rd ranked defense in the league last season.

Weren't the Cs #1 in defense back in 2022?

The problem of the Cs the last few years is offense.

Tied for #1 in 2021-22 but Rob played 61 games and Horford played 69. Partly due to stinking in the playoffs the season before, had the most rest of any Celtics team in recent memory.

We were #2 ranked offense in 2022-23 and something like #2 all time. A nice problem to have.

But when it was winning time, GSW shut down the Cs in the finals and Miami upset the Cs in the east finals.

Without a big who can score inside, the Cs offense became predictable.

Spo made it clear to the Heat players that if they take away the 3s of the Cs, the Cs will lose.

[BK_2020]

Weren't the Cs #1 in defense back in 2022?

The problem of the Cs the last few years is offense.

Tied for #1 in 2021-22 but Rob played 61 games and Horford played 69. Partly due to stinking in the playoffs the season before, had the most rest of any Celtics team in recent memory.

We were #2 ranked offense in 2022-23 and something like #2 all time. A nice problem to have.

But when it was winning time, GSW shut down the Cs in the finals and Miami upset the Cs in the east finals.

Without a big who can score inside, the Cs offense became predictable.

Spo made it clear to the Heat players that if they take away the 3s of the Cs, the Cs will lose.

The Heat didn't take away the 3. We missed open shots.

[Hal14]

Last year the C's began the season looking like one of the all-time best offensive teams in the history of the sport - until they later cooled down (and kind of lost their identity). Personally I hope the C's look more like an extremely well-rounded team this year, focusing on being in the top 5 on both offense and defense all season. In other words, rather than seeing the C's put up 140 or so on the knicks, and giving up around 130 points, I'd rather see them win like 110 to 99, and set up an identity of being elite on both ends of the court.

Yeah, last season the Cs were elite when they were making 3s.

But when the Cs got cold from 3, there was no one like KP who can get points inside the paint and make midrange shots.

Definitely! I also kind of got the feeling that Joe wanted to make a point of showing that it was now his team, and rather than just following in Udoka's shadow of focusing so much on defense, he wanted to try some different things. It just felt like he deliberatly took a good deal of the focus off of the defensive side of the ball last year. Near the end of the season there did seem to be more of a renewed focus on the defensive side, though, so hopefully this year he'll put more emphasis on it again.

Yeah, I think that is probably part of the reason why there was some tension later in the season between Smart and Mazzulla. Joe's focus on 3's and less emphasis on defense. Smart was the reigning DPOY and not a good shooter.

Plus, it seemed like Marcus was butt hurt about Udoka's suspension and he also didn't seem to like having to sacrifice so much and share minutes, share the backcourt with so many other good players - players who were arguably just as good , if not better than him (JB, White, Brogdon).

[Fierce1]

Miami was held to pathetically low 106 Offensive Rating. Denver either played magnificent defense or Miami was a crap lucky team that we all knew they were.

Miami was never a great offensive team all season long last season.

They won on defense.

Until they faced a Nuggets team who can score inside and outside.

[BK_2020]

We were the 3rd ranked defense in the league last season.

Weren't the Cs #1 in defense back in 2022?

The problem of the Cs the last few years is offense.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. They went from being a juggernaut on Defense under Udoka (and that was their identity) to being a historically elite offensive team at the beginning of the year under Mazulla (while giving up huge scores to other teams, with almost no real focus on defense at first) until their offense came back down to earth, then they realized that they needed to start playing better defense again, but it kind of left them without any real identity (streaky offensive team, occassionaly great defensive team) and they got exposed by the Heat in the PO's because of it.
I'm hoping to see a great balanced team this year, being in the top 5 in both Offense and Defense all season, and let that become thier identity - the best well-rounded team in the league. Not solely depending on shots falling, but a team that can shut you down on one side, and score consistently on the other.
Hopefully this game on Wed. will set the standard for what they can do this season.

No team in the NBA was as evenly excellent as the 2022-23 Celtics in recent memory. We were #2 on offense and #3 on defense, #1 in net rating. It'd be hard to get more balanced. I guess we could be #1 in everything.

[Fierce1]

Tied for #1 in 2021-22 but Rob played 61 games and Horford played 69. Partly due to stinking in the playoffs the season before, had the most rest of any Celtics team in recent memory.

We were #2 ranked offense in 2022-23 and something like #2 all time. A nice problem to have.

But when it was winning time, GSW shut down the Cs in the finals and Miami upset the Cs in the east finals.

Without a big who can score inside, the Cs offense became predictable.

Spo made it clear to the Heat players that if they take away the 3s of the Cs, the Cs will lose.

The Heat didn't take away the 3. We missed open shots.

The point is Al and Rob didn't make the Heat pay inside the paint.

KP changes that.

The Cs are now more balanced on offense.

[Fierce1]

Weren't the Cs #1 in defense back in 2022?

The problem of the Cs the last few years is offense.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. They went from being a juggernaut on Defense under Udoka (and that was their identity) to being a historically elite offensive team at the beginning of the year under Mazulla (while giving up huge scores to other teams, with almost no real focus on defense at first) until their offense came back down to earth, then they realized that they needed to start playing better defense again, but it kind of left them without any real identity (streaky offensive team, occassionaly great defensive team) and they got exposed by the Heat in the PO's because of it.
I'm hoping to see a great balanced team this year, being in the top 5 in both Offense and Defense all season, and let that become thier identity - the best well-rounded team in the league. Not solely depending on shots falling, but a team that can shut you down on one side, and score consistently on the other.
Hopefully this game on Wed. will set the standard for what they can do this season.

No team in the NBA was as evenly excellent as the 2022-23 Celtics in recent memory. We were #2 on offense and #3 on defense, #1 in net rating. It'd be hard to get more balanced. I guess we could be #1 in everything.

You're missing the point.

The Cs were great on offense last season because they had prolific scorers.

But the Cs didn't have a big man who could score inside and make midrange shots.

It was either the Cs making 3s or driving to the basket.

No low post threat.

[BK_2020]

I think we'll all be very disappointed if we go into this season expecting Porzingis to post up every time down like it's the 90s and illegal defense is still a thing.

[Fierce1]

I think we'll all be very disappointed if we go into this season expecting Porzingis to post up every time down like it's the 90s and illegal defense is still a thing.

Nobody is saying the Cs play like the 90s.

The point is you have another option if the 3s are not falling.

Last season if you give the ball to Al or Rob, inside the paint, they will just pass it back out.

That will not happen with KP.

[Hal14]

Weren't the Cs #1 in defense back in 2022?

The problem of the Cs the last few years is offense.

Tied for #1 in 2021-22 but Rob played 61 games and Horford played 69. Partly due to stinking in the playoffs the season before, had the most rest of any Celtics team in recent memory.

We were #2 ranked offense in 2022-23 and something like #2 all time. A nice problem to have.

But when it was winning time, GSW shut down the Cs in the finals and Miami upset the Cs in the east finals.

Without a big who can score inside, the Cs offense became predictable.

Spo made it clear to the Heat players that if they take away the 3s of the Cs, the Cs will lose.

No. I believe there was a quote that saw this summer that said Miami's gameplan was to let the C's shoot lots of 3's. Hence, why they played zone for most of the time.

When a team plays zone defense, it forces the offense to shoot mostly 3's.

Spo dared us to shoot those 3's. He knew that we were playing guys who weren't good shooters (Smart was not a good shooter, Rob doesn't ever shoot. Brogdon had a bum elbow. Grant had a hand injury. 2 of our best shooters (pritchard, Hauser) were on the bench for some reason. JB had a bum left wrist and right hand, and didn't shoot well from 3 last season even when healthy. Plus Al shot poorly from 3 the series before that vs Philly.

Plus, playing a zone defense slows the game down. And Spo knew that we were the younger team, with more athleticism and if it turned into a track meet, we'd win. He slowed it down, played zone to limit the easy transition baskets we could get.

Plus, Spo knew that a good offense is a diverse offense. When an offense is mixing it up and scoring on all 3 levels, plus 4 if you count transition..they're attacking the basket, running PnR, hitting cutters, etc. it's harder to defend, less predictable of an offense. But if you play zone, it forces the offense to shoot mostly 3's which is less diverse and more predictable - and easier to defend. That's why they ran zone..

Run zone to force us into settling for 3's every time. Force Tatum and Brown left, and have a help defender pressure hard at the nail anytime either of them drives the ball towards the paint. That seemed like pretty much their whole strategy. And it worked.

[BK_2020]

Tied for #1 in 2021-22 but Rob played 61 games and Horford played 69. Partly due to stinking in the playoffs the season before, had the most rest of any Celtics team in recent memory.

We were #2 ranked offense in 2022-23 and something like #2 all time. A nice problem to have.

But when it was winning time, GSW shut down the Cs in the finals and Miami upset the Cs in the east finals.

Without a big who can score inside, the Cs offense became predictable.

Spo made it clear to the Heat players that if they take away the 3s of the Cs, the Cs will lose.

No. I believe there was a quote that saw this summer that said Miami's gameplan was to let the C's shoot lots of 3's. Hence, why they played zone for most of the time.

When a team plays zone defense, it forces the offense to shoot mostly 3's.

Spo dared us to shoot those 3's. He knew that we were playing guys who weren't good shooters (Smart was not a good shooter, Rob doesn't ever shoot. Brogdon had a bum elbow. Grant had a hand injury. 2 of our best shooters (pritchard, Hauser) were on the bench for some reason. JB had a bum left wrist and right hand, and didn't shoot well from 3 last season even when healthy. Plus Al shot poorly from 3 the series before that vs Philly.

Plus, playing a zone defense slows the game down. And Spo knew that we were the younger team, with more athleticism and if it turned into a track meet, we'd win. He slowed it down, played zone to limit the easy transition baskets we could get.

Plus, Spo knew that a good offense is a diverse offense. When an offense is mixing it up and scoring on all 3 levels, plus 4 if you count transition..they're attacking the basket, running PnR, hitting cutters, etc. it's harder to defend, less predictable of an offense. But if you play zone, it forces the offense to shoot mostly 3's which is less diverse and more predictable - and easier to defend. That's why they ran zone..

I think it's less about us being bad from the three than Spo trying to maximize the element of luck. His plan could easily have grossly backfired if we shot slightly better than awful and they shot slightly worse than Prime Steph Curry as a team, but playing us straight up would've been a layup line.

[Joshyjess]

Weren't the Cs #1 in defense back in 2022?

The problem of the Cs the last few years is offense.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about. They went from being a juggernaut on Defense under Udoka (and that was their identity) to being a historically elite offensive team at the beginning of the year under Mazulla (while giving up huge scores to other teams, with almost no real focus on defense at first) until their offense came back down to earth, then they realized that they needed to start playing better defense again, but it kind of left them without any real identity (streaky offensive team, occassionaly great defensive team) and they got exposed by the Heat in the PO's because of it.
I'm hoping to see a great balanced team this year, being in the top 5 in both Offense and Defense all season, and let that become thier identity - the best well-rounded team in the league. Not solely depending on shots falling, but a team that can shut you down on one side, and score consistently on the other.
Hopefully this game on Wed. will set the standard for what they can do this season.

No team in the NBA was as evenly excellent as the 2022-23 Celtics in recent memory. We were #2 on offense and #3 on defense, #1 in net rating. It'd be hard to get more balanced. I guess we could be #1 in everything.

The problem was that their offensive rating was due mostly to the first part of the season (again, historic offensive numbers, but not much defense to speak of), and their defensive rating was due mostly to the later part of the season (when their offense cooled way down). It just seemed like they went from one kind of team (pure offense) to a different kind of team (mostly defense) in one season, and that left them without a real identity to fall back on. If they can demonstrate a well-rounded team from the get go, that can become their identity.

[Fierce1]

Tied for #1 in 2021-22 but Rob played 61 games and Horford played 69. Partly due to stinking in the playoffs the season before, had the most rest of any Celtics team in recent memory.

We were #2 ranked offense in 2022-23 and something like #2 all time. A nice problem to have.

But when it was winning time, GSW shut down the Cs in the finals and Miami upset the Cs in the east finals.

Without a big who can score inside, the Cs offense became predictable.

Spo made it clear to the Heat players that if they take away the 3s of the Cs, the Cs will lose.

No. I believe there was a quote that saw this summer that said Miami's gameplan was to let the C's shoot lots of 3's. Hence, why they played zone for most of the time.

When a team plays zone defense, it forces the offense to shoot mostly 3's.

Spo dared us to shoot those 3's. He knew that we were playing guys who weren't good shooters (Smart was not a good shooter, Rob doesn't ever shoot. Brogdon had a bum elbow. Grant had a hand injury. 2 of our best shooters (pritchard, Hauser) were on the bench for some reason. JB had a bum left wrist and right hand, and didn't shoot well from 3 last season even when healthy. Plus Al shot poorly from 3 the series before that vs Philly.

Plus, playing a zone defense slows the game down. And Spo knew that we were the younger team, with more athleticism and if it turned into a track meet, we'd win. He slowed it down, played zone to limit the easy transition baskets we could get.

Plus, Spo knew that a good offense is a diverse offense. When an offense is mixing it up and scoring on all 3 levels, plus 4 if you count transition..they're attacking the basket, running PnR, hitting cutters, etc. it's harder to defend, less predictable of an offense. But if you play zone, it forces the offense to shoot mostly 3's which is less diverse and more predictable - and easier to defend. That's why they ran zone..

Yeah, but Spo didn't say leave the Cs open at the 3-point line.

What Spo said was to take away the 3s by contesting the 3s and forcing the Cs to miss.

[Hal14]

But when it was winning time, GSW shut down the Cs in the finals and Miami upset the Cs in the east finals.

Without a big who can score inside, the Cs offense became predictable.

Spo made it clear to the Heat players that if they take away the 3s of the Cs, the Cs will lose.

No. I believe there was a quote that saw this summer that said Miami's gameplan was to let the C's shoot lots of 3's. Hence, why they played zone for most of the time.

When a team plays zone defense, it forces the offense to shoot mostly 3's.

Spo dared us to shoot those 3's. He knew that we were playing guys who weren't good shooters (Smart was not a good shooter, Rob doesn't ever shoot. Brogdon had a bum elbow. Grant had a hand injury. 2 of our best shooters (pritchard, Hauser) were on the bench for some reason. JB had a bum left wrist and right hand, and didn't shoot well from 3 last season even when healthy. Plus Al shot poorly from 3 the series before that vs Philly.

Plus, playing a zone defense slows the game down. And Spo knew that we were the younger team, with more athleticism and if it turned into a track meet, we'd win. He slowed it down, played zone to limit the easy transition baskets we could get.

Plus, Spo knew that a good offense is a diverse offense. When an offense is mixing it up and scoring on all 3 levels, plus 4 if you count transition..they're attacking the basket, running PnR, hitting cutters, etc. it's harder to defend, less predictable of an offense. But if you play zone, it forces the offense to shoot mostly 3's which is less diverse and more predictable - and easier to defend. That's why they ran zone..

I think it's less about us being bad from the three than Spo trying to maximize the element of luck. His plan could easily have grossly backfired if we shot slightly better than awful and they shot slightly worse than Prime Steph Curry as a team, but playing us straight up would've been a layup line.

Exactly. Using that strategy was an equalizer. Made it a tossup. We either hit shots and win, or we miss shots and lose. But it made it like a 50/50 for Miami to win.

And he knew that his odds were pretty good since we had guys out there who aren't shooters (Rob, Marcus) and it's not like we had a bunch of elite shooters like Steph and Klay.

Like you said, if they played it straight up, they lose. I suppose it's the same reason why you see high school teams who have less talent, less size, less athleticism than their opponent often play zone.

[Fierce1]

One thing's for sure, that defensive game plan of Miami from last season's ECF won't work this time around.

[Fierce1]

It was really frustrating when Al or Rob got the ball in the low post, against a smaller defender, and they would just pass it back out.

[31to6]

so YEAH, Celtics/Knicks boys, let's get it!

FWIW *crunch* offense is where the Celtics struggled the last couple/few years, right?

Coach Mazzulla is now talking about how important it is -- when the game is tight and you need a bucket -- to have options, including post options, to go to. Last season it was just "take the first decent 3" so this is progress -- in terms of personnel and in terms of coaching philosophy!