Manu Ginobili vs. Ray Allen vs. Reggie Miller

[chicago paxsons]

Manu
Reggie
Ray

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Allen
Manu
Miller

Reggie Miller one of the most overrated players in the HOF imo. He was a lesser version of Klay Thompson. Not sure why people think he was a superstar. He ran around picks and shot 3s.

You're buzzin, clearly.

Just for reference the NBA didn't keep these numbers until Reggie was 31 years old. So at the same ages:

% of shots assisted

Reggie Miller -

2 point shots - 68%
3 point shots - 87%

Ray Allen -

2 point shots - 58%
3 point shots - 91%

It's really not that different.

assisted doesn’t mean much for that kind of movement shooters

[cupcakesnake]

I flip flop on Reggie vs. Manu, but have them both above Ray Allen.

For career... what's the argument for Ray over Reggie? For regular season, Reggie crushes Ray in every metric I've ever looked at. Then the playoffs come around and the gap gets wider since Reggie morphs into one of the most dangerous playoff scorers ever. Even just watching the games, especially playoffs games: Ray Allen was really good and Reggie was terrifying.

People keep saying "Ray cuz he could dribble". But Ray Allen wasn't particularly impactful as a ballhandler or playmaker. He could do it and looked decent doing it, but he didn't start having elite impact until he embraced the pure shooter tag. I think people just like the idea of Ray, because he was kind of cool and Reggie was a dork.

[Profound23]

Ray, Reggie, Jayz, 2pac, and Biggie, Andre from Outkast, Jada, Corrupt, Nas, then Ginobili

[Ito]

Miller was the better player/leader prolly but Allen was the better talent and retired on top, a winner, that’s why they speculated his return for years but never happened

[Rust_Cohle]

I think Manu was the most versatile of the 3. Switch Manu with Reggie or Allen and Argentina don't get that gold medal.

Manu
Miller
Allen

[jowglenn]

Reggie Miller was THE GUY for over a decade on a perennial playoff team. That team missed the playoffs like once or twice in Reggie's entire tenure. He took them to multiple conference finals, an NBA finals. Had massive moments in the playoffs.

Statistically he's one of the most efficient scorers in history. He was primarily a jump shooter and yet has the 14th highest True Shooting Percentage in NBA history. Look at this list:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ts_pct_career.html

Notice - almost everyone ahead of Reggie is a center, who often have high TS% because they're only dunking. The only guard ahead of Reggie is Steph Curry.

[JasonStern]

For career... what's the argument for Ray over Reggie?

As I posted earlier:

Ray Allen played until he was 38. Had several 20ppg+ seasons. Was the lead player on several teams. 2 championships (feel free to asterisk). 10 all-star appearances.

Reggie Miller is by far the greatest Pacer. And actually had more points than Ray Allen over his career. But 5 all-star games versus 10. No championships - which I hate is a thing, but we all know it is. And as great of a shooter as he was, Ray Allen topped him in 3 point contest appearances. And shocking to me, Ray Allen was the only one of the two players to actually win. Shattered my childhood.

Great thread, though. Usually when someone posts a player comparison thread on the general board, it's incredibly lopsided. This one was pretty balanced. And while I have my personal opinion, I don't think anyone is wrong if they chose otherwise.

[Biff]

Miller and Allen have very similar per possession stats and Miller is more efficient. If he's a one trick pony and Allen really is that much more diverse offensively, then why do Millers offensive stats look better?

And if you look at playoff stats, Miller crushes him. I'd take Miller over Allen 10/10.

I'd have it Miller, Manu and then Allen. Ray is a better shooter/scorer than Manu but Manu has him on defense, slashing and playmaking.

[dolphinatik]

If I have to take either player im taking Ray first then Manu then Reggie.

Take away Boston and Miami and Ray is still probably a HOF.
Manu was solid in his role

Reggie was below these guys

[picc]

But if a team of basketball aliens came down to take over Earth... and I had to get a team of players in their prime to play against them... I'd pick Manu out of these 3 guys as a piece on my roster, pretty instinctively, so what does that say?

For one game? I might too.

[maradro]

I'd put Reggie and Manu as 1a and 1b, very different styles but both ballers.. Manu more versatile, Reggie more consistent

Ray could and should have been better than both but he was SOFT

[LeeBlaze]

If we're talking about most skilled/skillset
Manu
Allen
Miller

Most dangerous in playoffs
Manu
Miller
Allen

Best career is a tough one. Allen and Miller both have better stats, but Manu was the most impactful

[cupcakesnake]

For career... what's the argument for Ray over Reggie?

As I posted earlier:

Ray Allen played until he was 38. Had several 20ppg+ seasons. Was the lead player on several teams. 2 championships (feel free to asterisk). 10 all-star appearances.

Reggie Miller is by far the greatest Pacer. And actually had more points than Ray Allen over his career. But 5 all-star games versus 10. No championships - which I hate is a thing, but we all know it is. And as great of a shooter as he was, Ray Allen topped him in 3 point contest appearances. And shocking to me, Ray Allen was the only one of the two players to actually win. Shattered my childhood.

Great thread, though. Usually when someone posts a player comparison thread on the general board, it's incredibly lopsided. This one was pretty balanced. And while I have my personal opinion, I don't think anyone is wrong if they chose otherwise.

I don't really get most of your argument.
- You point out Ray played until 38 but Reggie played until 39 and I'd argue he stayed better for longer.
- You point out the championships but Ray won his as a 3rd/4th best player and then as a bench role player. Reggie consistently led his teams to great post season success. He led his Pacers to 5x Eastern Conference Finals and went to the NBA finals. All this despite playing most of his career in the Michael Jordan East.
- I'm not sure the 3-point contest is worth mentioning as anything beyond a fun anecdote.
- The all-star thing is reasonable enough, but we already know who has more all-stars and who was more celebrated at the time. Reggie was underappreciated and misunderstood in his time, and his outlier 3-point shooting was sometimes even seen as a weakness rather than the strength we all understand it to be today.

I also don't share you diplomacy on this one, haha. I feel pretty strongly that Reggie<Ray. While it's fine to like Ray more, I think it's very difficult to build a strong argument that says he's better than Reggie Miller. I've never seen a deep dive that uncovers Ray's value as being superior to Reggie's, though I get that Ray is more popular. They both did very similar things so it's easier than normal to compare value.

I think Ginobili is harder to compare because of the minutes and the playstyle. If someone insisted Ray was better than Manu, I'd think there's a good case to make there, even if I think Manu is a much better player.

[Capn'O]

But if a team of basketball aliens came down to take over Earth... and I had to get a team of players in their prime to play against them... I'd pick Manu out of these 3 guys as a piece on my roster, pretty instinctively, so what does that say?

Well, for one thing, Miller is clearly one of the aliens. They don't explicitly state this in Space Jam but he was sent down as a spy.

[Lakerland247]

Just my opinion.

1. Miller - He was the clear cut Pacers premiere player. He played with Smits, Mark Jackson, Chuck Person, Shremp.

2. Manu - Played with T. Duncan, D. Robinson, Tony Parker, and later Kawhi. Which allowed Manu to be able to be a bit risk taker.

3. Allen - aside from his stay in Seattle Supersonics, his teammates while in Cav's and Heat were Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Rashard Lewis

[Yoshun]

I flip flop on Reggie vs. Manu, but have them both above Ray Allen.

For career... what's the argument for Ray over Reggie? For regular season, Reggie crushes Ray in every metric I've ever looked at. Then the playoffs come around and the gap gets wider since Reggie morphs into one of the most dangerous playoff scorers ever. Even just watching the games, especially playoffs games: Ray Allen was really good and Reggie was terrifying.

People keep saying "Ray cuz he could dribble". But Ray Allen wasn't particularly impactful as a ballhandler or playmaker. He could do it and looked decent doing it, but he didn't start having elite impact until he embraced the pure shooter tag. I think people just like the idea of Ray, because he was kind of cool and Reggie was a dork.

I'm looking at their stats right now, neither "crushes" the other. They each seem to have slight edges in certain categories but I don't see any crushing.

[ellobo]

To me, Reggie is clearly the best out of this group. For individual efficiency, consistently driving team offensive efficiency, and for maintaining his efficiency in the playoffs. He really was the shooting guard precursor to Curry, using his gravity on and off the ball to warp defenses. There are a bunch of numbers below, but by the eye test, having seen his whole college and pro careers, he was the most dominant. Although there is definitely a faction out there of Reggie Miller appreciators, I feel like a lot of people who didn't watch him don't appreciate how many different ways he had to score and inaccurately think of him as a one-dimensional player, and even people who did watch him often don't appreciate his overall impact on team offense.

6th all-time in career offensive rating (and 1st in career offensive rating among all retired players).

10th all-time in offensive win shares.

18th all-time in total win shares.

He was a great shooter from all ranges and the free throw line.
.614 TS% (15th all-time, 7th among retired players) and .601 in the playoffs (14th all-time, 8th all-time among retired players)

He was more than just a jumpshooter.
.402 Free throw rate and .411 in the playoffs (higher than Jordan and Kobe, for example, not to mention Tracy McGrady and Vince Carter). Reggie drew way more fouls than Ray and was about equal to Manu (Reggie had a slightly higher free throw rate, but slightly lower free throw attempts per 100).

22nd all-time in VORP

To me, Ray and Manu are very close overall, although their styles were very different. Ray was more similar to Reggie in that his biggest strengths were off-ball movement and shooting, whereas Manu's strength was wild on-ball creativity.

I love and appreciate all three guys. As a Knicks fan, Reggie was a feared and hated (but respected) rival, Manu was one of my favorite players to watch and I was usually rooting for his team (when they weren't playing the Knicks), and as a UConn fan, I followed Ray's whole career and mostly rooted for his teams as well.

[ReddoverKobe]

Jesus shuttlesworth>>>>>Manu>>>Miller

[ReddoverKobe]

Some of ya'll seem to be looking at Miami Ray Allen here. Go watch videos of Milwaukee and Seattle Allen.