Offense only: How many seasons was John Stockton better than peak Deron Williams?

[ShotCreator]

I spent an entire summer day a couple years ago just trying to figure out what on-court reason CP3 even in a year like 2010 would be much higher on impact metrics offensively than Deron Williams.


And what I found was Deron Williams didn't thrive in any area or level of half court. 3, mid-range or rim. He had no true home at half court. He would tend to shoot as a fallback option.

And he didn't leverage would he did have very much or very well. Whether he was in a shooting rhythm or getting to the rim easily. His change of directions and stall dribbles wasn't there at all compared to CP3.

He was fast, especially for his size and thrived in transition where you don't get punished as much for just driving in a straight line but he was not highly manipulative of defensive rotations and threatening with the ball in his hands.

He got a surprising lack of respect compared to CP3 that I can remember purely as a ball handler and scorer.

Ben Taylor tracked his playmaking as some outlier level, ranking him #9 all-time and I won't go against that. But the same ranking had Stockton at #4. Now try to rationalize that gap while maintaining the assumption that Williams is just tiers over Stockton as a scorer.


Defensively this is a blow out. I think offensively it's a close but clear Stockton gap with Williams having a situational edge because his athleticism might allow him to abuse a matchup more thoroughly. But there is no doubt Stockton reached much higher highs of game tilt. Pretty much from the very beginning of his prime all the way until even post-prime.

[Bwelc679]

I spent an entire summer day a couple years ago just trying to figure out what on-court reason CP3 even in a year like 2010 would be much higher on impact metrics offensively than Deron Williams.


And what I found was Deron Williams didn't thrive in any area or level of half court. 3, mid-range or rim. He had no true home at half court. He would tend to shoot as a fallback option.

And he didn't leverage would he did have very much or very well. Whether he was in a shooting rhythm or getting to the rim easily. His change of directions and stall dribbles wasn't there at all compared to CP3.

He was fast, especially for his size and thrived in transition where you don't get punished as much for just driving in a straight line but he was not highly manipulative of defensive rotations and threatening with the ball in his hands.

He got a surprising lack of respect compared to CP3 that I can remember purely as a ball handler and scorer.

Ben Taylor tracked his playmaking as some outlier level, ranking him #9 all-time and I won't go against that. But the same ranking had Stockton at #4. Now try to rationalize that gap while maintaining the assumption that Williams is just tiers over Stockton as a scorer.


Defensively this is a blow out. I think offensively it's a close but clear Stockton gap with Williams having a situational edge because his athleticism might allow him to abuse a matchup more thoroughly. But there is no doubt Stockton reached much higher highs of game tilt. Pretty much from the very beginning of his prime all the way until even post-prime.

This is very useful and I couldn't agree more with your take here. I really enjoyed watching Deron play and thought his crossover was deadly but he just wasn't that quick compared to someone like Paul who he was often compared to early in their careers. Deron also got lost defensively or was overagressive which took away his size advantages as a big point guard. Don't get me wrong, he was a very talented player but just not on the same level of Paul or Stockton.

I am interested in the Ben Taylor playmaking rankings you are referring to though so please share a link (or is it patreon exclusive?). I am assuming that Deron gets his high ranking from his early playoff success when he played phenomenally on his way to the WCF (except when he got out played by an injured peak Baron Davis in round two).

Sent from my Pixel 6a using RealGM mobile app

[ShotCreator]

I spent an entire summer day a couple years ago just trying to figure out what on-court reason CP3 even in a year like 2010 would be much higher on impact metrics offensively than Deron Williams.


And what I found was Deron Williams didn't thrive in any area or level of half court. 3, mid-range or rim. He had no true home at half court. He would tend to shoot as a fallback option.

And he didn't leverage would he did have very much or very well. Whether he was in a shooting rhythm or getting to the rim easily. His change of directions and stall dribbles wasn't there at all compared to CP3.

He was fast, especially for his size and thrived in transition where you don't get punished as much for just driving in a straight line but he was not highly manipulative of defensive rotations and threatening with the ball in his hands.

He got a surprising lack of respect compared to CP3 that I can remember purely as a ball handler and scorer.

Ben Taylor tracked his playmaking as some outlier level, ranking him #9 all-time and I won't go against that. But the same ranking had Stockton at #4. Now try to rationalize that gap while maintaining the assumption that Williams is just tiers over Stockton as a scorer.


Defensively this is a blow out. I think offensively it's a close but clear Stockton gap with Williams having a situational edge because his athleticism might allow him to abuse a matchup more thoroughly. But there is no doubt Stockton reached much higher highs of game tilt. Pretty much from the very beginning of his prime all the way until even post-prime.

This is very useful and I couldn't agree more with your take here. I really enjoyed watching Deron play and thought his crossover was deadly but he just wasn't that quick compared to someone like Paul who he was often compared to early in their careers. Deron also got lost defensively or was overagressive which took away his size advantages as a big point guard. Don't get me wrong, he was a very talented player but just not on the same level of Paul or Stockton.

I am interested in the Ben Taylor playmaking rankings you are referring to though so please share a link (or is it patreon exclusive?). I am assuming that Deron gets his high ranking from his early playoff success when he played phenomenally on his way to the WCF (except when he got out played by an injured peak Baron Davis in round two).

Sent from my Pixel 6a using RealGM mobile app

That would make a lot of sense, because the impressions I have are fuzzy but what I posted was the gist of what I thought. Williams being less quick would explain his style of driving and the lack of separation he can get from mid-range and elsewhere.

John Stockton OTOH was very quick even into the late 90's. Kept his playmaking and defense up to par with prime levels.

This is the podcast going over the playmakers: https://poddtoppen.se/podcast/1428290303/thinking-basketball/23-top-playmakers-in-nba-history