Markelle Fultz

[JoshuaPotter]

I agree with all this. I'd also point out that Black projects to be a free throw merchant.

Dude you mentioned it earlier yourself when you analyzed Black iirc. He knows how to get to the FT line.

Yeah his jumpshot is non existent and Fultz might as well be non existent from 3-ball to, but the comparisons after that end.

Black seems to have a "flashes of brilliance factor" followed by potentially elite D for his position, and the ability to get at the line better then Fultz can.

The rest is raw raw raw raw assumption. But on paper, thats the peak, thats the difference. Well that and sometimes people learn how to shoot better as they age.

Yeah, his FTr stood out in college. I expect it will translate. I'm stoked about Black.

Just as a recap of the thread...one of the many recaps.

Yes I think we all agree that Fultz is an NBA caliber player. We all even agree he is somewhere between top 17-25 of our personal starting pointguard lists.

Fultz does nothing elite that separates him or makes him hard to replace. Unless you count team chemistry I guess.

- Fultz doesn't shoot 3pts a lot or well enough
- FTA/FTM is not great
- everything else average.

Black the hope would be.
- Provides high to elite level defense for his position
- a FTr that hopefully he doesn't forget
- The rest arguably Fultz is as good or better by a landslide.

Oh wait, here we go "wait and see" who ends up being better at the same age. Right now, there is no doubt that as a rookie Fultz was better. But then injury and irony is going to kick in.

[swarlesbarkley]

I've been a big fan and big supporter of Fultz over the years. I'm teetering on giving up on him as an impact player for us this season unless he shows the confidence to shoot the 3 when he's open (and he shoots it with his 18ft jumper form like he's done sporadically). If he continues to ignore wide open 3 and instead chooses to drive into his defender 7ft away, it's over folks.

[Rainwater]

I've been a big fan and big supporter of Fultz over the years. I'm teetering on giving up on him as an impact player for us this season unless he shows the confidence to shoot the 3 when he's open (and he shoots it with his 18ft jumper form like he's done sporadically). If he continues to ignore wide open 3 and instead chooses to drive into his defender 7ft away, it's over folks.

He is an amazing role player but to think he will be much more than that at this point is wishful thinking in my opinion.

[SOUL]

I think people need to reconcile the fact that shooting alone does not equal being an impact player.* We have a lot of guys on this team that fall under that umbrella of doing other things that help the team a lot and Fultz is no different.

*It's an entirely different argument of whether or not he's our PG of the future, but he's definitely valuable to the team. It's just hard to commit to someone who isn't great at stretching the floor at that position.

[GelbeWand09]

I think people need to reconcile the fact that shooting alone does not equal being an impact player.* We have a lot of guys on this team that fall under that umbrella of doing other things that help the team a lot and Fultz is no different.

*It's an entirely different argument of whether or not he's our PG of the future, but he's definitely valuable to the team. It's just hard to commit to someone who isn't great at stretching the floor at that position.

He doesnt shoot 3's & doesnt get to the line. Thats just one of the worst case combination for being a productive offensive player.
He definitely got value for us as a Backup PG in the future but if we resign, he's gonna start for a unseeable time & getting starter money. Thats my concern. Even more with WeHam at the helm doing nothing until they are forced (player asked out) to do anything.

[SOUL]

He doesnt shoot 3's & doesnt get to the line. Thats just one of the worst case combination for being a productive offensive player.

Not disputing that.

I'm saying he still impacted the game by being a good ball handler, keeps possessions alive with his rebounding and putbacks, plays solid to great defense at times, pushes tempo, gets guys in position, passes well - not elite, but solid vision. That is impact.

This is why a lot of anti-Fultz posts are disingenuous. I respect posters that just say they don't want him to be the future point guard because of his fatal flaw, but there's a huge reason why he does get minutes and it's not because of the stuff people are knocking him for.

Meanwhile, I read the Kings board/reddit and people are just begging Huerter to be benched because when his shot isn't going, he's not giving the team anything. We all want players that can shoot well and when they're not, do all the little things to make up for it. The problem is.. those players are extremely hard to find.

[Ralof]

when he arrived,his first season in Orlando,there was hope he could develop in a "derozan-point guard"type of player.

after another bad injury,is getting clear is becoming a connector piece in nba,a late ricky rubio with less IQ(ricky was a genius on the floor)and more athleticism/size.

[GelbeWand09]

He doesnt shoot 3's & doesnt get to the line. Thats just one of the worst case combination for being a productive offensive player.

Not disputing that.

I'm saying he still impacted the game by being a good ball handler, keeps possessions alive with his rebounding and putbacks, plays solid to great defense at times, pushes tempo, gets guys in position, passes well - not elite, but solid vision. That is impact.

This is why a lot of anti-Fultz posts are disingenuous. I respect posters that just say they don't want him to be the future point guard because of his fatal flaw, but there's a huge reason why he does get minutes and it's not because of the stuff people are knocking him for.

Meanwhile, I read the Kings board/reddit and people are just begging Huerter to be benched because when his shot isn't going, he's not giving the team anything. We all want players that can shoot well and when they're not, do all the little things to make up for it. The problem is.. those players are extremely hard to find.

I don't disagree with that but that's the effect any solid PG would give the team right now which is especially noticeable since we don't have a real other PG's in the last few years. Suggs & Cole both lack PG skills. That's why Markelle's impact looks better than it normally would.
Of course we are better with him than when Franz/Paolo/G-Leaquers have to bring the ball like in the beginning of last year or his playmaking looks better than when Cole or Jalen organize the game. But in reality what Markelle does is easily replaceable AND easily upgradeable if his replacement brings that basic PG stuff but also gives spacing or goes to the the line or gives us elite rim pressure.
My fear is we resign AND pay him for how he looks here compared to the alternatives and not how his real impact is compared to other PG's. Even more when statistically we were better with him on the bench or his good games came mainly in blowout losses.
I just cant imagine us winning many games with Markelle as the PG in the PO's. Even more with Paolo's (I think Franz becomes a good 3P shooter) troubles at the 3P line.

[SOUL]

My fear is we resign AND pay him for how he looks here compared to the alternatives and not how his real impact is compared to other PG's. Even more when statistically we were better with him on the bench or his good games came mainly in blowout losses.
I just cant imagine us winning many games with Markelle as the PG in the PO's. Even more with Paolo's (I think Franz becomes a good 3P shooter) troubles at the 3P line.

If he re-signs, my opinion changes and so does my expectations TBH. I'm not necessarily penciling him in as anything, and he has to show out this year and I think the FO want to see it too. Many people were saying Cole might get traded OR sign for $17-20 mil a year if we wanted to keep him and we got him for cheap and extended him, so everybody saying we're for sure extending Fultz and for a certain price, it's hard to read too much into any of that yet.

All I know is that last year he was big for Franz and Paolo and they both have sung his praises in terms of helping them, especially Paolo. He's important to the team right now whether people admit it or not - doesn't mean I think he's the engine or we shouldn't move on for him or pay him or make him the long-term starter, I just think he's useful for the team at the moment, and once I hear about a rumored PG we could get for pieces I'd be willing to part with, then trust me, I'd be all aboard that train.

[RichCollab]

I wasn’t impressed by Fultz last night but I was ok with his night.

[Skybox]

My fear is we resign AND pay him for how he looks here compared to the alternatives and not how his real impact is compared to other PG's. Even more when statistically we were better with him on the bench or his good games came mainly in blowout losses.
I just cant imagine us winning many games with Markelle as the PG in the PO's. Even more with Paolo's (I think Franz becomes a good 3P shooter) troubles at the 3P line.

If he re-signs, my opinion changes and so does my expectations TBH. I'm not necessarily penciling him in as anything, and he has to show out this year and I think the FO want to see it too. Many people were saying Cole might get traded OR sign for $17-20 mil a year if we wanted to keep him and we got him for cheap and extended him, so everybody saying we're for sure extending Fultz and for a certain price, it's hard to read too much into any of that yet.

All I know is that last year he was big for Franz and Paolo and they both have sung his praises in terms of helping them, especially Paolo. He's important to the team right now whether people admit it or not - doesn't mean I think he's the engine or we shouldn't move on for him or pay him or make him the long-term starter, I just think he's useful for the team at the moment, and once I hear about a rumored PG we could get for pieces I'd be willing to part with, then trust me, I'd be all aboard that train.

You mentioned Huerter...he will have to be in a year-long slump before defenses will sag off of him, so his mere presence is a "skill"...that doesn't make Huerter (or Kennard, or Hield, etc) better players than Fultz and, honestly, I don't think adding a knockdown, one-trick high-volume shooter next to Fultz is enough...that would be two marginal guys, IMO. Suggs' big night of deep shooting is obviously endorsed by Mose and is an attempt to create enough of a threat to open the floor. Suggs brings elite defense, Fultz brings elite ballhandling but both, presently, are flawed. One or both backcourt positions need to be more complete players, at least offensively...and the better bet, it appears is Suggs growing and expanding. He's apparently got the green light, but that won't last long if he doesn't make more. I could see a Fultz/Herro-type or a Suggs/Jamal Murray or CJ-type combo, but not a Suggs/Fultz combo long-term. Maybe Suggs becomes more of a Mikael Bridges 3&D savant and complements Fultz' weaknesses beautifully, but that's still building around a compromise. Last night, Cole was clearly the closest thing to what we need at PG, but (like everyone here) I'm dubious as to his ceiling as a floor general and (based on the contract he was offered and accepted) that's probably understood by all. One game is one game, but as the weeks unfold, the picture will become clearer one way or another. I'm really disappointed that Markelle didn't even ATTEMPT a 3 after his end-of-year pronouncement that we've all hung our hopes on. Just one game...Suggs' quick trigger won't get him benched yet, but it's also a sign that Mose sees the obvious need -not just for the extra point per possession but the floor spreading. Paolo shouldn't have to get all of his hard-fought points at the line. Paolo and Ingles led the team in assists (by a large margin) that's another very promising thing that ORL might be looking at "Less PG, more Combo Guard" lineups long-term, like DEN.

[Skybox]

...adding to my last post...looking at Fultz' stats - ZERO attempts from 3, ZERO FTA's, more rebounds than assists (2!?), 3 steals, 56% from the floor, maybe HE is a better-handling Suggs. Maybe he's the Marcus Smart/Eric Snow-type PG that plays next to the Iverson type 3-level scorer (Simons, Herro, Trae). It's unconventional, but when you've got Paolo and Franz, you can explore unconventional. That also seems like the role Black was born for but isn't likely ready for yet - big, elite defense, get to the rim, move the ball.

I'm trying to see how the pieces can fit. Suggs is already an elite defender who can't handle and (so far) can't really shoot. Fultz is a very good defender over the last couple years, is big and physical, great handles, efficient at the rim...both of them need an explosive scorer next to them to live their best lives. Maybe moving Suggs for that guy is more realistic, value wise

I LOVE Suggs' intensity but ...Markelle's chill TMac demeanor may just be a disguise. If Suggs doesn't pick up the shooting (not just attempts ), they're both in play, IMO. Imagine if they could BOTH make 2.5 threes a game

[SOUL]

...adding to my last post...looking at Fultz' stats - ZERO attempts from 3, ZERO FTA's, more rebounds than assists (2!?), 3 steals, 56% from the floor, maybe HE is a better-handling Suggs. Maybe he's the Marcus Smart/Eric Snow-type PG that plays next to the Iverson type 3-level scorer (Simons, Herro, Trae). It's unconventional, but when you've got Paolo and Franz, you can explore unconventional. That also seems like the role Black was born for but isn't likely ready for yet - big, elite defense, get to the rim, move the ball.

I'm trying to see how the pieces can fit. Suggs is already an elite defender who can't handle and (so far) can't really shoot. Fultz is a very good defender over the last couple years, is big and physical, great handles, efficient at the rim...both of them need an explosive scorer next to them to live their best lives. Maybe moving Suggs for that guy is more realistic, value wise

I LOVE Suggs' intensity but ...Markelle's chill TMac demeanor may just be a disguise. If Suggs doesn't pick up the shooting (not just attempts ), they're both in play, IMO. Imagine if they could BOTH make 2.5 threes a game

The other stuff are legit concerns but pure assist numbers as a negative stat just seems whatever to me, especially in the new NBA where unless you're used as a heliocentric hub (Doncic, old Westbrook, Harden) or you're pass first CP3 or Haliburton PG, then you can set up all the passes in the world for misses or keep the ball moving freely and don't mind giving hockey assists and it doesn't mean you're a bad passer.

It's actually probably the most simple thing to watch and see. He's a fine passer, doesn't mind making hockey assists and doesn't hold it too long. Can whip up some special passes like the preseason one behind the back. Sets people up okay. Doesn't do much pick and roll and his timing could be better in advantageous fastbreak opportunities (but tbh, that's our whole team, it's like they never realize when to time them).

[MartinsIzAfraud]

...adding to my last post...looking at Fultz' stats - ZERO attempts from 3, ZERO FTA's, more rebounds than assists (2!?), 3 steals, 56% from the floor, maybe HE is a better-handling Suggs. Maybe he's the Marcus Smart/Eric Snow-type PG that plays next to the Iverson type 3-level scorer (Simons, Herro, Trae). It's unconventional, but when you've got Paolo and Franz, you can explore unconventional. That also seems like the role Black was born for but isn't likely ready for yet - big, elite defense, get to the rim, move the ball.

I'm trying to see how the pieces can fit. Suggs is already an elite defender who can't handle and (so far) can't really shoot. Fultz is a very good defender over the last couple years, is big and physical, great handles, efficient at the rim...both of them need an explosive scorer next to them to live their best lives. Maybe moving Suggs for that guy is more realistic, value wise

I LOVE Suggs' intensity but ...Markelle's chill TMac demeanor may just be a disguise. If Suggs doesn't pick up the shooting (not just attempts ), they're both in play, IMO. Imagine if they could BOTH make 2.5 threes a game

when Zach Lavine becomes available good lord I'd trade a lot to snag him. Only issue is it would likely include one of our building pieces.

[pepe1991]

I still don't see how Fultz- Suggs can work longer term against better teams nor in playoffs. But we played 1 game, 81 left to see.

[Audi]

Just a tiny gripe on the zero fouls stuff - last night I counted at least two drives he was fouled on that were no calls. Definitely remember that first one because it resulted in a Wendell putback early in the game. Clear contact down low by a Brooks push.

I’m not saying he doesn’t need to get to the line more, but in this game he was willingly trying to create contact - I’m not going to fault him for blind refs.

[dsg2021]

Fultz played just fine in the opener. Very well rounded, unselfish PG. He seems to often understand what is needed and who to get the ball to. Wish Mosely would have him finish more plays in the corner 3 since he can make it.

Suggs was a trigger-happy player and I think I called every single make he had from the field, because it was the ones where he wasn’t trying to be Ray Allen anymore. Thank God the dude was legitimately the biggest defensive impact (with like five “hockey deflections”), yes perhaps even over Isaac on the night.

[Rainwater]

Fultz is a good player and is fine right now. But in the future, if the magic want to progress, they will need a 3 and D player to surround Paolo and Franz rather than the floor commander/driver that Fultz is. With Franz and Paolo it is just unnecessary. Fultz is a good player but it is just not the ideal fit.

[jonbob17]

Fultz is a good player and is fine right now. But in the future, if the magic want to progress, they will need a 3 and D player to surround Paolo and Franz rather than the floor commander/driver that Fultz is. With Franz and Paolo it is just unnecessary. Fultz is a good player but it is just not the ideal fit.

What if Franz turns into an elite shooter on volume, and Paolo is eventually average (36%) from 3? Is there any reason to think neither of these things could happen? Do we need an elite shooting PG if everybody else on the court is average/good shooter?

[Knightro]

What if Franz turns into an elite shooter on volume, and Paolo is eventually average (36%) from 3? Is there any reason to think neither of these things could happen? Do we need an elite shooting PG if everybody else on the court is average/good shooter?

"If players 1, 2, 3 and 4 on the court are all awesome, it will supersede the deficiencies of player 5" is not exactly an argument in favor of player 5, right?