PG: Wandle and the scary Free Throw line, Haunt the Knicks

[Deeeez Knicks]

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[thebuzzardman]

I don't know where to put this so I'll just say it here

I get that we like Hart and we probably have a worse season last year without him

But

I think we would have been better off keeping the 1st we traded for him than paying him $20 mil through 2027. Even with Hart, our biggest weakness is bigger wings and a backup PF. At 23, there were plenty of big wings and a solid PF prospect to replace Obi in Kris Murray. Granted, these guys are all tbd, but still. I think you could replicate Hart's production with a guy picked in the late 1st (I know so because Hart himself was a late 1st round pick), and you wouldn't have to pay them $20 mil a year

And I know there's gonna be guys who say like, late 1sts have no value but like, Quick was the 25th pick and he's by far our best bench player. It's not that I have faith in this FO to draft (I really don't), it's that they don't even try. Grimes was the last 1st round pick we made, hell he was the 25th pick too

It's like bunting every time. And that's not even taking into account the fact they gave out tons of money to mediocre bench guys 3 years ago, then not even a year later had to trade a 1st to get rid of them in order to sign Brunson, when if they don't re-sign them in the 1st place, we get Brunson and a 1st. Also not even taking into account spending a top 10 pick on a backup PF and then not trading him while he still had value

We're not a bad team, but the asset management is atrocious.

All true.

What's also frustrating is they don't take any big swings. Where are we going to get a star if we aren't drafting. They operate like we have all the pieces we need. That they need to add the finishing pieces. It makes sense to trade a draft pick for Hart if we have our star players but we don't.

Which leads me to believe that this FO is not serious about winning it all. That their goal is to be a perennial playoff team. No longer a laughing stock and in doing so avoid risk. Play it safe with vets.

Then they should make a couple of trades to rationalize the roster

[dakomish23]

I feel bad that RJ has had to play his entire career next to Randle. That’s all he has ever known.

Godspeed

[thebuzzardman]

If they decided they were going to throw bags at bench guys I wish they would have saved a bag for Kelly Olynyk

This was another option.

I would really love to know what Leon was thinking. This team is good, and honestly missing FTs were the difference between winning and losing last night, but the team is sitting with Fournier on the bench being paid to be a malcontent when those resources need to go to someone up front or on the wing that can help space.

We're paying Fournier, Hart, and DiVincenzo $43 million this year

Fournier's gone after this year, but then we pay DiVincenzo and Hart $33 million a year for the next 3 years at least

That's a lot of money for not a lot of production.

Knicks should trade all the Villanova guys for Embiid

[thebuzzardman]

Brunson, Hart, Donte and 4 picks for Embiid. Let's go!!!!!!

[MrDollarBills]

If they decided they were going to throw bags at bench guys I wish they would have saved a bag for Kelly Olynyk

This was another option.

I would really love to know what Leon was thinking. This team is good, and honestly missing FTs were the difference between winning and losing last night, but the team is sitting with Fournier on the bench being paid to be a malcontent when those resources need to go to someone up front or on the wing that can help space.

We're paying Fournier, Hart, and DiVincenzo $43 million this year

Fournier's gone after this year, but then we pay DiVincenzo and Hart $33 million a year for the next 3 years at least

That's a lot of money for not a lot of production.

wait, WHAT?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/

Oh no. Leon baby what are we doing here. I refuse to believe that there isn't someone that could use Fournier. That has to be cleaned up.

I'm not saying to burn a 1st rounder to get rid of an expiring, but I don't think this is sustainable long term without adding another piece that can shoot (and that will be allowed to play by Thibs).

[j4remi]

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The keyword here is "steal" games. That means we don't have the talent. I'm hoping to get another star player here by this trade deadline because I don't see how Randle/RJ is our no.2 or 3.

Yeah, this team is built for Thibs. They play grinding, ugly basketball. But it's been effective. Even last night, they shot 20 more FGAs than the C's and were a few FT's away from taking this game despite KP and Tatum going crazy. Though I agree that we need another star or true second option.

It feels like this team has a capped ceiling unless Randle or RJ finds a consistency that they've yet to show with plenty of time and opportunity.

[dakomish23]

I'm not impressed with DeVincenzo like at all. Would much rather have had Obi back.

And it wasn't an either or situation

[MrDollarBills]

Brunson, Hart, Donte and 4 picks for Embiid. Let's go!!!!!!

[dakomish23]

Knicks should have gone after Kelly Olynyk instead of this stiff

Olynyk was awesome in Fiba too. Should have sent Obi to Utah for him.

This roster needs a stretch big so badly, especially when Randle leaves the floor.

It's why if we moved Obi, my #1 move was him and Fournier for John Collins. Outside of the outlier poor year he had last year, Collins has been pretty solid from 3 plus he defends the rim some so could have played next to Randle as well.

Not like we're a cap space team any time soon.

[DOT]

wait, WHAT?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/

Oh no. Leon baby what are we doing here. I refuse to believe that there isn't someone that could use Fournier. That has to be cleaned up.

I'm not saying to burn a 1st rounder to get rid of an expiring, but I don't think this is sustainable long term without adding another piece that can shoot (and that will be allowed to play by Thibs).

This isn't a new thing either

Look at the 2022 salaries on Spotrac, we were spending almost $60 million on Fournier, Burks, Rose, Noel, and Kemba, the latter 3 playing 88 games combined that year. Then we spent a 1st round pick to get out of some of those deals in order to free up the cap space for Brunson, and there were way too many people on here talking about how incredible Leon was at cap management for spending a pick to get out of contracts that were clearly too much even when they were signed.

[aggo]

its not just that we signed DDV

its the complete lack of foresight understanding that IQ and Brunson are the only winning players on the team.



this front office did only 1 thing well, thats not trading the boat for a star. other than that, it has failed.

[MrDollarBills]

Olynyk was awesome in Fiba too. Should have sent Obi to Utah for him.

This roster needs a stretch big so badly, especially when Randle leaves the floor.

It's why if we moved Obi, my #1 move was him and Fournier for John Collins. Outside of the outlier poor year he had last year, Collins has been pretty solid from 3 plus he defends the rim some so could have played next to Randle as well.

Not like we're a cap space team any time soon.

That would have been a move to get behind...I think last year was an outlier in terms of Collins' deep ball. He's a career 35% shooter with wicked long arms. Damn

I just feel like, and this is just me talking out of turn but the team/front office let emotions get the best of everyone regarding that Obi situation. Even if the relationship was beyond repair between Obi and Thibs, the FO didn't address back up PF at all. Trading a decent back up 4 that can at least hit the three ball at 34% for two 2nds and not addressing the position is going to hurt. Especially if Julius has to miss time god forbid

[Synciere]

I don't want to watch the randle and rj pairing for another year. They really need to break this sht up. At this point idc which one of them goes but one of em needs to. They don't compliment each other at all. What's worse is they make life more difficult for Brunson, too.

I never understand this kind of rhetoric. RJ doesn’t complement anyone unless you’re discussing a player who does everything well. Randle isn’t the problem.

They're really redundant players. Both need the ball to be effective. High usage players. They don't open the floor for Brunson. And neither is a very good defender. We would be better off getting rid of one of them for someone who can operate off ball and plays better D. It's not complicated. And it's frustrating to watch. We've been watching this sht for awhile now and they have yet to complement each other. It's terrible roster construction.

At 34% Randle wasn’t any sort of sharpshooter but there were many many games he spread the floor just fine. The same can’t be said about RJ. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your stance that splitting them up would be good strictly looking at our forward positions, I’m simply saying it’s not arbitrary. RJ is the worse, by a lot.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

The DDV signing will be hated by the 5th game, he's the epitome of just a guy and has been living off the national championship. They could have signed Wantanabe, Lyles or Prince for less money and less years while addressing our lack of wing depth or in Lyles case giving us a backup 4 that spaces the floor.

[MrDollarBills]

wait, WHAT?

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/cap/

Oh no. Leon baby what are we doing here. I refuse to believe that there isn't someone that could use Fournier. That has to be cleaned up.

I'm not saying to burn a 1st rounder to get rid of an expiring, but I don't think this is sustainable long term without adding another piece that can shoot (and that will be allowed to play by Thibs).

This isn't a new thing either

Look at the 2022 salaries on Spotrac, we were spending almost $60 million on Fournier, Burks, Rose, Noel, and Kemba, the latter 3 playing 88 games combined that year. Then we spent a 1st round pick to get out of some of those deals in order to free up the cap space for Brunson, and there were way too many people on here talking about how incredible Leon was at cap management for spending a pick to get out of contracts that were clearly too much even when they were signed.

Leon has four 2024 first round picks at his disposal. He might have to burn one again just to break up that glut on the bench. I like DDV and Hart but what's the sense of keeping Fournier here? 18 mil can be spread between two decent players that can actually contribute.

[Guano]

What's also frustrating is they don't take any big swings. Where are we going to get a star if we aren't drafting. They operate like we have all the pieces we need. That they need to add the finishing pieces. It makes sense to trade a draft pick for Hart if we have our star players but we don't.

Which leads me to believe that this FO is not serious about winning it all. That their goal is to be a perennial playoff team. No longer a laughing stock and in doing so avoid risk. Play it safe with vets.

They clearly think Brunson/Randle is a star core to build around, with RJ a young star growing into his role in a big 3

I like Brunson and RJ, Randle I want to like but he's so frustrating, but the only one who's really a core piece is Brunson, and he's a good #2 option on a great team, not a true #1 (and even then, you can argue since he's a bad defender and reliant on iso-ball you need a better fitting #2)

I've been saying this for years too, that while we lauded Leon and co. for their patience, eventually you have to pull the trigger. If we're being honest, last year was the year to trade for a star, and the longer we wait, the more our assets are gonna depreciate in value. You already saw it with Obi, I was never a big fan of him but we waited too long to trade him and got nothing in return

When you trade for a star, you trade away guys on rookie deals and 1st round picks. The less time they have on their deals, the less valuable they are, so even though Grimes and Quick improved, I don't think they're more valuable going out now than they were last year. And while we have a lot of future 1sts, they're mostly heavily protected, so they're not as valuable

To paraphrase one of my favorite characters in the Way of Kings, the most important aspect of an action is doing it at the right time.

You're not wrong - but fck all the Knicks talk. I just finished the 3rd book in that series. I'm grabbing dawnshard today from the bookstore. Sanderson is so brilliant at world creating and creating compelling conflict that makes it near impossible to put his books down. My sleep has been fcked lately. The revelation in the 3rd book completely caught me off guard.

[MrDollarBills]

The DDV signing will be hated by the 5th game, he's the epitome of just a guy and has been living off the national championship. They could have signed Wantanabe, Lyles or Prince for less money and less years while addressing our lack of wing depth or in Lyles case giving us a backup 4 that spaces the floor.

TP would have been another good pick up as well at SF/Small ball 4. He can shoot (37% career/38% last season on good volume) and while he's not the most high IQ guy in the world (he does a lot of dumb sh*t if left to his own devices) he gives max effort. That's a shame.
.

[Guano]

I don't want to watch the randle and rj pairing for another year. They really need to break this sht up. At this point idc which one of them goes but one of em needs to. They don't compliment each other at all. What's worse is they make life more difficult for Brunson, too.

Having 2 non spacers on the floor at all times makes things a lot harder. It's not impossible to play with, but I can't help but think Holiday doesn't have an easier time running Brunson into KP and Horford defensively if there was an extra body that can keep the perimeter defense honest.

I'm curious to know who the front office reached out to during the summer. Both Georges Niang and Yuta Watanabe were on the market...they would have filled a huge need for this roster's front court. Yuta would have been a perfect fit as back up 4, instead he went to Phoenix.

The C can't shoot either so they're running 3 nonshooters. It's a problem.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I never understand this kind of rhetoric. RJ doesn’t complement anyone unless you’re discussing a player who does everything well. Randle isn’t the problem.

They're really redundant players. Both need the ball to be effective. High usage players. They don't open the floor for Brunson. And neither is a very good defender. We would be better off getting rid of one of them for someone who can operate off ball and plays better D. It's not complicated. And it's frustrating to watch. We've been watching this sht for awhile now and they have yet to complement each other. It's terrible roster construction.

At 34% Randle wasn’t any sort of sharpshooter but there were many many games he spread the floor just fine. The same can’t be said about RJ. I’m not necessarily disagreeing with your stance that splitting them up would be good strictly looking at our forward positions, I’m simply saying it’s not arbitrary. RJ is the worse, by a lot.

The difference between them is RJ can run a fundamental basketball play and Randle can't. RJ given as many touches in an offense as Randle is going to increase our PnR attempts, which would make our C more useful in the offense. We run so little PnR because the offense is structured around Randle and an easy play to defend is a big/big PnR because you can just switch it. RJ is a slashing forward that is asked to catch and shoot, and play in iso because teams would happily give Randle three point attempts, or rather catch and jab step back threes since he rarely just lets it fly.