2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[Clyde Frazier]

Giannis would be a much better player in a role in which he focuses on defense and finishing. Having the offense run through him just doesn't work consistently, except for some ill-equipped teams. He still wants to be too much of an initiator. With Lillard there, that just shouldn't be his role. Ramp up the defense, and play more like a traditional big man on offense in the half court and the Bucks would be scary. Right now, they are very beatable in my opinion.

Embiid does not have Lillard currently but he as well should focus on defense first again. His decisions under pressure are too often poor. And on defense, it's up and down with him. When he's in the play, he's really good. But he's out of the play way too often, whether that's him dropping in the PnR on shooters or not getting back in transition.

Watching them also makes me appreciate Jokic so much more. Being an offensive focal point as a big man is so tough. Heck, watch Durant last night. His scoring is exceptional still but he too makes so many poor decisions under pressure and stops the ball as well. Davis also can't be the focal point of an offense because of his limitations as a creator. Jokic truly is exceptional on offense even compared to all the other offensively gifted big men.

I do think we have to give Giannis time to adapt given his role the last several years. When it hits him "you mean I just have to run like a gazelle for even easier finishes in transition? And be a devastating finisher as a roll man? And we're still winning a ton of games? I can do that." Seems like a pretty reasonable expectation.

[Colbinii]

Giannis would be a much better player in a role in which he focuses on defense and finishing. Having the offense run through him just doesn't work consistently, except for some ill-equipped teams. He still wants to be too much of an initiator. With Lillard there, that just shouldn't be his role. Ramp up the defense, and play more like a traditional big man on offense in the half court and the Bucks would be scary. Right now, they are very beatable in my opinion.

Embiid does not have Lillard currently but he as well should focus on defense first again. His decisions under pressure are too often poor. And on defense, it's up and down with him. When he's in the play, he's really good. But he's out of the play way too often, whether that's him dropping in the PnR on shooters or not getting back in transition.

Watching them also makes me appreciate Jokic so much more. Being an offensive focal point as a big man is so tough. Heck, watch Durant last night. His scoring is exceptional still but he too makes so many poor decisions under pressure and stops the ball as well. Davis also can't be the focal point of an offense because of his limitations as a creator. Jokic truly is exceptional on offense even compared to all the other offensively gifted big men.

I do think we have to give Giannis time to adapt given his role the last several years. When it hits him "you mean I just have to run like a gazelle for even easier finishes in transition? And be a devastating finisher as a roll man? And we're still winning a ton of games? I can do that." Seems like a pretty reasonable expectation.

Except...most plays a big man rolls, sets a pick, and/or is involved in an action he doesn't actually get the ball.

This is a far cry from what Giannis is use to, where he gets the ball on the top of the key, puts his head down and shoulders his way to the rim.

Is he going to be okay constantly running, setting picks and rolling even though he isn't getting the ball? He has never done that.

[Clyde Frazier]

Giannis would be a much better player in a role in which he focuses on defense and finishing. Having the offense run through him just doesn't work consistently, except for some ill-equipped teams. He still wants to be too much of an initiator. With Lillard there, that just shouldn't be his role. Ramp up the defense, and play more like a traditional big man on offense in the half court and the Bucks would be scary. Right now, they are very beatable in my opinion.

Embiid does not have Lillard currently but he as well should focus on defense first again. His decisions under pressure are too often poor. And on defense, it's up and down with him. When he's in the play, he's really good. But he's out of the play way too often, whether that's him dropping in the PnR on shooters or not getting back in transition.

Watching them also makes me appreciate Jokic so much more. Being an offensive focal point as a big man is so tough. Heck, watch Durant last night. His scoring is exceptional still but he too makes so many poor decisions under pressure and stops the ball as well. Davis also can't be the focal point of an offense because of his limitations as a creator. Jokic truly is exceptional on offense even compared to all the other offensively gifted big men.

I do think we have to give Giannis time to adapt given his role the last several years. When it hits him "you mean I just have to run like a gazelle for even easier finishes in transition? And be a devastating finisher as a roll man? And we're still winning a ton of games? I can do that." Seems like a pretty reasonable expectation.

Except...most plays a big man rolls, sets a pick, and/or is involved in an action he doesn't actually get the ball.

This is a far cry from what Giannis is use to, where he gets the ball on the top of the key, puts his head down and shoulders his way to the rim.

Is he going to be okay constantly running, setting picks and rolling even though he isn't getting the ball? He has never done that.

Well I said we have to give him time to adapt. I don't expect him to take on a completely passive role, but it's pretty clear the guy just cares about winning championships at this point. You could make the argument he's the best finisher the game has ever seen. This could be easier for him as a result. That FT shooting is rough though. It seems mental at this point considering he has had "ok" years in the past.

I'll add that when they first made the trade I wondered if year 12 Lillard was gonna lose a step. Seems like that isn't the case tho. He'd just have to stay healthy.

[MyUniBroDavis]

It’s literally game one fellas

[Peregrine01]

Giannis would be a much better player in a role in which he focuses on defense and finishing. Having the offense run through him just doesn't work consistently, except for some ill-equipped teams. He still wants to be too much of an initiator. With Lillard there, that just shouldn't be his role. Ramp up the defense, and play more like a traditional big man on offense in the half court and the Bucks would be scary. Right now, they are very beatable in my opinion.

Embiid does not have Lillard currently but he as well should focus on defense first again. His decisions under pressure are too often poor. And on defense, it's up and down with him. When he's in the play, he's really good. But he's out of the play way too often, whether that's him dropping in the PnR on shooters or not getting back in transition.

Watching them also makes me appreciate Jokic so much more. Being an offensive focal point as a big man is so tough. Heck, watch Durant last night. His scoring is exceptional still but he too makes so many poor decisions under pressure and stops the ball as well. Davis also can't be the focal point of an offense because of his limitations as a creator. Jokic truly is exceptional on offense even compared to all the other offensively gifted big men.

Yeah. You can be spoiled by watching the Nuggets play. Everything looks so well-orchestrated and easy. Then you watch other teams and think what the hell is this?

[The-Power]

Giannis would be a much better player in a role in which he focuses on defense and finishing. Having the offense run through him just doesn't work consistently, except for some ill-equipped teams. He still wants to be too much of an initiator. With Lillard there, that just shouldn't be his role. Ramp up the defense, and play more like a traditional big man on offense in the half court and the Bucks would be scary. Right now, they are very beatable in my opinion.

Embiid does not have Lillard currently but he as well should focus on defense first again. His decisions under pressure are too often poor. And on defense, it's up and down with him. When he's in the play, he's really good. But he's out of the play way too often, whether that's him dropping in the PnR on shooters or not getting back in transition.

Watching them also makes me appreciate Jokic so much more. Being an offensive focal point as a big man is so tough. Heck, watch Durant last night. His scoring is exceptional still but he too makes so many poor decisions under pressure and stops the ball as well. Davis also can't be the focal point of an offense because of his limitations as a creator. Jokic truly is exceptional on offense even compared to all the other offensively gifted big men.

Yeah. You can be spoiled by watching the Nuggets play. Everything looks so well-orchestrated and easy. Then you watch other teams and think what the hell is this?

I actually think that there are several very impressively looking offenses around the league currently. It's just that they tend to be driven by perimeter players still.

[Texas Chuck]

Giannis has been a dominant offensive player. Dominant. No reason to ask him to just become a screener on offense now. I mean wat?

We put way too much emphasis on style points based on personal preferences if we believe its time to Giannis to essentially be put out to pasture as an offensive player.

[Doctor MJ]

Giannis has been a dominant offensive player. Dominant. No reason to ask him to just become a screener on offense now. I mean wat?

We put way too much emphasis on style points based on personal preferences if we believe its time to Giannis to essentially be put out to pasture as an offensive player.

Do you think Giannis is a better scorer than Dame? Better passer?

[Texas Chuck]

Giannis has been a dominant offensive player. Dominant. No reason to ask him to just become a screener on offense now. I mean wat?

We put way too much emphasis on style points based on personal preferences if we believe its time to Giannis to essentially be put out to pasture as an offensive player.

Do you think Giannis is a better scorer than Dame? Better passer?

He's been at least as effective of a scorer over a long period time of time, yes. And I think he puts more pressure on defenses than Dame does.

Does Dame have more scoring/passing skill? Of course he does.

I'm not saying trade for Dame and change nothing. I am saying if you have prime Giannis, don't go away from a guy defenses have had few answers for.

[DCasey91]

I think Giannis is quickly becoming overrated (in terms of offence).

He killed a very small team in the finals sweet, but I’ve found his offensive output lacking on more than one occasion in the playoffs against teams that matchup well

Middleton with reps should be perfect 3rd option/second closer.

Man I dunno but the more I watch Giannis the more I’m convinced the league/refs/general treatment makes him better than what he actually is.

Don’t get me wrong a 6”10 self aware Westbrook is still a scary player.

[Doctor MJ]

Giannis has been a dominant offensive player. Dominant. No reason to ask him to just become a screener on offense now. I mean wat?

We put way too much emphasis on style points based on personal preferences if we believe its time to Giannis to essentially be put out to pasture as an offensive player.

Do you think Giannis is a better scorer than Dame? Better passer?

He's been at least as effective of a scorer over a long period time of time, yes. And I think he puts more pressure on defenses than Dame does.

Does Dame have more scoring/passing skill? Of course he does.

I'm not saying trade for Dame and change nothing. I am saying if you have prime Giannis, don't go away from a guy defenses have had few answers for.

Okay, so there are two things here:

First, I would disagree with the assessment that Giannis has been as effective of a scorer as Dame, but understand the argument.

Second, when you object to Giannis becoming more of a screener, but also acknowledge that something has to change to make use of Dame, my question to you would be: What's the sweet spot you're hoping to hit?

In theory I could see an argument for Dame as an off-ball scorer, but in practice that's not how Dame's built his skillset. So if you acquired Dame with the intent of making use of Dame's offensive strengths, how are imagining that looks like with he and Giannis? Like are you thinking of them as a pick & roll duo with Giannis either being the finisher or the passer and using that as the main half-court threat?

[Ron Swanson]

Maybe it's just Game 1 overreactions (yes, he played terrible) but still stunned that so many (even Bucks fans are doing this TBF) are riding with this narrative that Giannis needs to turn himself into a super-charged Clint Capella type rim-runner. I mean, we're talking about a guy who's had better scoring seasons, by per-minute production and TS% Added, than James Harden has ever had, leading multiple Top-5 offenses with the very definition of "meh" offensive talent around him, and having as much interior gravity as any offensive player since Shaq.

Whether Dame is a better offense-strictly player seems irrelevant. Teams have devoted their entire defensive personnel to stop him (i.e. The Wall) and now they just can't do that anymore with Dame essentially ready to drop 40 in any game where they can't devote those guys to trapping him (and vice versa for Giannis). That in the past, teams were fine leaving Eric Bledsoe and Jrue Holiday wide open on the perimeter because they were so terrified of Giannis getting near the paint, is an awful weird way to try and drive home this idea that his offense was/is overrated.

[Texas Chuck]

First, I would disagree with the assessment that Giannis has been as effective of a scorer as Dame, but understand the argument.

Second, when you object to Giannis becoming more of a screener, but also acknowledge that something has to change to make use of Dame, my question to you would be: What's the sweet spot you're hoping to hit?

I don't really care about the 1st point as it relates to this. Even if I concede Dame is a better scorer, Giannis has been a dominant one in his own right. So I'm not giving all that up and all the pressure he puts on defenses to have him play a more traditional big man role.

There is room for both of them to have plenty of time on ball. Just like we seen with other star duos throughout the years. Dame coming in doesn't mean Giannis should now just focus on defense and traditional big man offensive play. We are talking about the 2nd best player in the world in his absolute prime being reduced to that? No, that definitely isn't the right answer.

But I do this board has been very dismissive of Giannis as an offensive force for years now and best I can figure its simply because he doesn't shoot well. Which feels incredibly reductive but nobody has ever been able to give any other reason(mostly they don't bother to give one at all I think because they know results wise they don't have much to go with here...)

[Colbinii]

First, I would disagree with the assessment that Giannis has been as effective of a scorer as Dame, but understand the argument.

Second, when you object to Giannis becoming more of a screener, but also acknowledge that something has to change to make use of Dame, my question to you would be: What's the sweet spot you're hoping to hit?

I don't really care about the 1st point as it relates to this. Even if I concede Dame is a better scorer, Giannis has been a dominant one in his own right. So I'm not giving all that up and all the pressure he puts on defenses to have him play a more traditional big man role.

There is room for both of them to have plenty of time on ball. Just like we seen with other star duos throughout the years. Dame coming in doesn't mean Giannis should now just focus on defense and traditional big man offensive play. We are talking about the 2nd best player in the world in his absolute prime being reduced to that? No, that definitely isn't the right answer.

But I do this board has been very dismissive of Giannis as an offensive force for years now and best I can figure its simply because he doesn't shoot well. Which feels incredibly reductive but nobody has ever been able to give any other reason(mostly they don't bother to give one at all I think because they know results wise they don't have much to go with here...)

The board that ranked Giannis 13th all-time in terms of Peaks is dismissive of Giannis' offense?

[Colbinii]

I think it's perfectly fair to be critical and analyze a player like Giannis offensively, critique and assess his weakness as a basketball player and still think he is great.

We don't need to ignore everyone's weaknesses just because they are a Top Tier player.

[Texas Chuck]

First, I would disagree with the assessment that Giannis has been as effective of a scorer as Dame, but understand the argument.

Second, when you object to Giannis becoming more of a screener, but also acknowledge that something has to change to make use of Dame, my question to you would be: What's the sweet spot you're hoping to hit?

I don't really care about the 1st point as it relates to this. Even if I concede Dame is a better scorer, Giannis has been a dominant one in his own right. So I'm not giving all that up and all the pressure he puts on defenses to have him play a more traditional big man role.

There is room for both of them to have plenty of time on ball. Just like we seen with other star duos throughout the years. Dame coming in doesn't mean Giannis should now just focus on defense and traditional big man offensive play. We are talking about the 2nd best player in the world in his absolute prime being reduced to that? No, that definitely isn't the right answer.

But I do this board has been very dismissive of Giannis as an offensive force for years now and best I can figure its simply because he doesn't shoot well. Which feels incredibly reductive but nobody has ever been able to give any other reason(mostly they don't bother to give one at all I think because they know results wise they don't have much to go with here...)

The board that ranked Giannis 13th all-time in terms of Peaks is dismissive of Giannis' offense?

Yeah I phrased that poorly. There are 3 or 4 board regs who have regularly been dismissive of his offense, not necessarily the board as a whole.

Mostly the theory guys don't like him because he doesn't fit the formula and rather saying this guy is clearly an exception to my rules on how basketball is to be played, they seem to take the tack that my theory has no holes and thus there are no exceptions and thus Giannis has to be minimized since the theory doesn't allow for him to be dominant.

[Doctor MJ]

Maybe it's just Game 1 overreactions (yes, he played terrible) but still stunned that so many (even Bucks fans are doing this TBF) are riding with this narrative that Giannis needs to turn himself into a super-charged Clint Capella type rim-runner. I mean, we're talking about a guy who's had better scoring seasons, by per-minute production and TS% Added, than James Harden has ever had, leading multiple Top-5 offenses with the very definition of "meh" offensive talent around him, and having as much interior gravity as any offensive player since Shaq.

Whether Dame is a better offense-strictly player seems irrelevant. Teams have devoted their entire defensive personnel to stop him (i.e. The Wall) and now they just can't do that anymore with Dame essentially ready to drop 40 in any game where they can't devote those guys to trapping him (and vice versa for Giannis). That in the past, teams were fine leaving Eric Bledsoe and Jrue Holiday wide open on the perimeter because they were so terrified of Giannis getting near the paint, is an awful weird way to try and drive home this idea that his offense was/is overrated.

So, I think the thing is that when you talk about "Dame ready to drop 40", the way Dame has always dropped 40 in the past is to give him the ball and let him go to work. If you're not letting Dame be Dame, then he's either not dropping 40, or he's figuring out a new way to play and doing it amazingly well.

All that might feel like me quibbling about choice of words. Maybe you just mean that whatever the Bucks could do with Holiday, it's going to be easier with Dame, and that's certainly true. It's not a question of whether Dame ins Holiday's offensive role makes the offense better than it was before, it's a question of whether that's the best strategy for the talent you have.

Maybe you're thinking "Who cares? Great is great.", but of course every big of extra efficiency helps, particularly when you have to expect your defense to get worse now that you've gotten rid of the best perimeter defender in the game for a guy who isn't known for his defense at all.

[Doctor MJ]

First, I would disagree with the assessment that Giannis has been as effective of a scorer as Dame, but understand the argument.

Second, when you object to Giannis becoming more of a screener, but also acknowledge that something has to change to make use of Dame, my question to you would be: What's the sweet spot you're hoping to hit?

I don't really care about the 1st point as it relates to this. Even if I concede Dame is a better scorer, Giannis has been a dominant one in his own right. So I'm not giving all that up and all the pressure he puts on defenses to have him play a more traditional big man role.

There is room for both of them to have plenty of time on ball. Just like we seen with other star duos throughout the years. Dame coming in doesn't mean Giannis should now just focus on defense and traditional big man offensive play. We are talking about the 2nd best player in the world in his absolute prime being reduced to that? No, that definitely isn't the right answer.

But I do this board has been very dismissive of Giannis as an offensive force for years now and best I can figure its simply because he doesn't shoot well. Which feels incredibly reductive but nobody has ever been able to give any other reason(mostly they don't bother to give one at all I think because they know results wise they don't have much to go with here...)

Re: room for both of them to have plenty of time on ball, just like other star duos. I think we can certainly agree that not every possession need by ball-dominated by one guy, but there's definitely a question of what actions we're expecting from each guy when the other guy has the ball, and from there making decisions of what to feature most based on what works best. If you're looking to give each guy "his time with the ball" to keep him sharp and the defense honest, cool, but the idea that you're not going to identify the most effective approach and use it as your go-to option just stubborn.

Re: Dismissed because he doesn't shoot well. Well I mean, you're talking to me, and you know that I'm very focused on team outcome rather than skillset. There's nothing in principle keeping Giannis from being my OPOY each year simply because he can't shoot. I just don't see data supporting him having that type of effect.

The Bucks just threw away their best perimeter defender for a guy who is a weakness on defense. Why did they do that? Because of that guy's offense. Why did they do that? Because there's also sorts of evidence that the guy in question is an incredible offensive player with the ball in his hands.

Even if their assessment of outcome suggests that Giannis is more impactful on offense than Dame, they should still be asking themselves if the best way to play the two of them is with Dame on-ball and Giannis figuring out something else to do. And of course, if they, like me, sees Dame as the guy who has been the more valuable offensive player, it raises the question even more loudly of why you would acquire him and his weaknesses only to not be looking to capitalize on his strengths as much as possible.

[itsxtray]

Giannis has been a dominant offensive player. Dominant. No reason to ask him to just become a screener on offense now. I mean wat?

We put way too much emphasis on style points based on personal preferences if we believe its time to Giannis to essentially be put out to pasture as an offensive player.

I agree to some extent but Dame is just too good to not have the ball more than Giannis. It's got nothing to do with style but all substance. Dame is a monster out of horns, not just last night but last season as well:

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On this play PJ Tucker has to stick with Giannis on his roll preventing him from stepping up to stop Dame's drive. This is synergy on offense even if Giannis is "just rolling" and part of the reason why they killed it with pick & roll last night.

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Think of the two man game between Jokic & Murray. That doesn't turn Jokic into "just" a screener but it's a huge part of their offense and should be a big part of the Bucks as well. The Bucks should steal some of the dho sets the Nuggets use with Giannis as the handler with Dame coming toward him, it'd create an impossible problem for the defense. Being more of a off ball secondary scorer next to Dame out of various pick & roll sets is probably the best way for them to optimize on offense as a team.

The Bucks have struggled on offense in the playoffs as a team since they became a contender and even when they won the chip. Putting the ball in Dame's hands next to Giannis's threat as a roller should have them humming on offense once all the kinks are worked out.

[bigboi]

Simmons back being good again. Wanted him on the Celtics tbh