Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[YogurtProducer]

On that note, Scottie is #1 in the league in blocks per game right now, pretty amazing.


[I know, I know, it's only a few games, but still]

He had 5 in the first game and that's driving it, but he's been pretty active, so even once it settles down, it'll be something to keep an eye on as positive from him, for sure.

I think yes. The guys you listed are high floor players night in and night out. High floor meaning that even during their 'bad' games they make a significant impact. Granted we have a tiny sample but Scottie has been that kinda player so far this season. What makes a star a superstar is the combination of nightly high floors with their destructive force. The inability to do anything about them. I hope Scottie can get their. But at minimum I think he'll be a Lowry type of star by which he elevates a team night by night.

I hope that makes sense.

The sample we have right now isn't really helpful because it's specifically unsustainable. We need to see how he reacts when his J isn't falling, and if he can boost his draw rate and drive more. He's been pretty active, though, in a variety of different ways. It'll be nice to see how he ultimately shakes out.

Yeah people need to chill out a little bit and get ready for the inevitable Scottie regression.

Scottie is a career 39% shooter from 16-3P and is currently shooting 85.7% on those shots (and they account for 15.2% of his shots). Not to mention, he has a career 29% 3-point shooter and he is currently hitting 36.4% of them.

So in reality, nearly 40% of his shots are on %'s that are waaaaay above his career averages. The 3-point % is at least a do-able range, but he is obviously not going to hit 86% of his mid-range J's.

Also this blew my mind, Scottie's baskets are actually assisted at a higher rate this year than last year. Would not have expected that.

[YogurtProducer]

Superstars in the league right now imo:

Lebron
Steph
KD
Giannis
Luka
Jokic
Kawhi (when healthy)

That’s it, in my opinion. Five of those guys will be decrepit or out of the league by the time Barnes hits his prime. Wemby of course will leap into that superstar tier by year three if he stays healthy. So that leaves a few spots open in that top tier.

Who from the new guard will join Luka, Jokic and Wemby as superstars? Are they in the league yet? Can Barnes be one of them?

Tatum, Embiid, SGA are 3 obvious superstars missing from your list.

[MiamiSPX]

37.3 MIN, 21.0 PPG, 8.7 REB, 6.7 AST, 3.0 BLK, 0.7 STL, .565 FG, .364 3PT, .700 FT, .625 TS, 24.6 USG

Great start for Scottie.

Couldn't have asked for more than that. Pointing out bouts of passiveness or his fouls (of which many HAVE been boenheaded) is just nitpicking at this point. He was never going to come out of the gate perfect in every facet of the game.

If you had told anyone prior to the season that he would average those numbers throughout the first 3 games (likely 4 with a bottom feeder tonight), every single person here would have gladly taken it.

He continues to also say all the right things, including taking the blame for the Bulls loss. It will never be enough for those that clearly don't like him but anyone that is being objective couldn't have asked for more than he's shown all summer until now.

[tsherkin]

Yeah people need to chill out a little bit and get ready for the inevitable Scottie regression.

We're going to see ups and downs from him all year long, that's inevitable. That happens with basically everyone to one degree or another, and is normal. What we are going to need is a degree of perspective on Scottie. We need to see broad trends and that arc of improvement. He doesn't need to instantly become a superstar, or even an All-Star, for this season to be a positive step forward.

Also this blew my mind, Scottie's baskets are actually assisted at a higher rate this year than last year. Would not have expected that.

That, I hope continues all year long.

But yeah, we need him to drive more, continue leveraging those close shots (he's doing that at a level he managed as a rookie, so it should be sustainable) and hopefully the 3pt shooting will roughly maintain. 33%+ would make me happy on the season. He needs to draw more fouls, though; that tepid draw rate is a huge, huge problem, especially for nights when his J isn't falling. 3 games, 3 games, 3 games, but that's been a weakness of his both of his prior seasons, so it's something to watch.

But yeah, this is "buckle up and get ready for the ride" territory because he's going to have growing pains as he tries to keep developing. Hopefully, there is net improvement as we get deeper into the season, and that's all we can really ask for. He doesn't strike me as a generational player who just needs to find his jumper, so tempered expectations are somewhat important as well. Doesn't mean he can't be really good for us, but this isn't Lebron 2.0 in waiting or whatever, so he's got to have the freedom to have off-games and some room for that regression you're talking about, for sure.

[tsherkin]

Tatum, Embiid, SGA are 3 obvious superstars missing from your list.

Embiid, sure.

Tatum feels borderline ish to me. SGA... needs to repeat what he did last season to even begin that conversation. I don't think he's quite there yet. He was closer to a top 15 offensive player last year than top 5. Tatum was similar, a top 10, top 12 kind of guy (specifically on O). Boston had a very well-distributed offense last year and Tatum wasn't some shockingly-proficient playmaker.

You can make a case for either of them, I guess, but they aren't obvious exclusions at all.

[TorontoBarneys]

Damn Scottie back to playing heavy minutes. Would like it to be 34-35 for this season. Obviously small sample size so not worried.

[dTox]

Superstars in the league right now imo:

Lebron
Steph
KD
Giannis
Luka
Jokic
Kawhi (when healthy)

That’s it, in my opinion. Five of those guys will be decrepit or out of the league by the time Barnes hits his prime. Wemby of course will leap into that superstar tier by year three if he stays healthy. So that leaves a few spots open in that top tier.

Who from the new guard will join Luka, Jokic and Wemby as superstars? Are they in the league yet? Can Barnes be one of them?

Tatum, Embiid, SGA are 3 obvious superstars missing from your list.

Tatum maybe, the rest haven't proven it in the playoffs to be up there.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Tofubeque]

Damn Scottie back to playing heavy minutes. Would like it to be 34-35 for this season. Obviously small sample size so not worried.

Yeah I was going to throw "Darko Thibodeau" out there but then I remembered that Scottie played an OT game

[KL78192020]

Scottie is our best player. Shocker the 4th pick in the draft is good, but hey tanking doesn't work. Imagine we had top picks in 2022 and this year. With a core of guys like Barnes/Chet and another top pick this year.

All we need to do is pick the best player in the draft every year and we would be awesome!

Masai and co have been good at drafting so they would be able to find talent at the top. Beats having FVV/OG/Siakam probably leave as free agents and signing low level free agents like Dennis and Otto lol.

[sbsat]

Scottie is our best player. Shocker the 4th pick in the draft is good, but hey tanking doesn't work. Imagine we had top picks in 2022 and this year. With a core of guys like Barnes/Chet and another top pick this year.

All we need to do is pick the best player in the draft every year and we would be awesome!

Masai and co have been good at drafting so they would be able to find talent at the top. Beats having FVV/OG/Siakam probably leave as free agents and signing low level free agents like Dennis and Otto lol.

Point is moot... As you said, tanking doesnt work

[HiJiNX]

Tatum, Embiid, SGA are 3 obvious superstars missing from your list.

Embiid, sure.

Tatum feels borderline ish to me. SGA... needs to repeat what he did last season to even begin that conversation. I don't think he's quite there yet. He was closer to a top 15 offensive player last year than top 5. Tatum was similar, a top 10, top 12 kind of guy (specifically on O). Boston had a very well-distributed offense last year and Tatum wasn't some shockingly-proficient playmaker.

You can make a case for either of them, I guess, but they aren't obvious exclusions at all.

I watched GSW beat a high powered Boston team in the finals simply because they figured out they could just guard Tatum one on one with Wiggins and neutralize his one and one scoring and his defence breaking drive and kick game at the same time. My main criteria for superstar is being matchup proof. Of the guys I mentioned, there is nobody on that list who can effectively be slowed down by an individual player or a scheme.

Embiid is a foul merchant which is why his scoring numbers drop drastically in the playoffs. He has a tendency to fade at the end of playoff games, taking too many jumpers or not being assertive enough to get the ball. A change in play style might do wonders for his playoff efficiency but as of right now he’s very hit and miss in the tournament. His results don’t match his talent/tools and you can’t exactly blame a lack of supporting cast in his case. That said, he is usually pretty seriously ailing by the playoffs and playing through it.

SGA…great scorer. Game winners. Etc. But I just don’t feel he elevates the ceiling of a team as much as you’d want from a guy you call a superstar. I can’t even explain why or what it is, but there’s something missing there for me.

[YogurtProducer]

Superstars in the league right now imo:

Lebron
Steph
KD
Giannis
Luka
Jokic
Kawhi (when healthy)

That’s it, in my opinion. Five of those guys will be decrepit or out of the league by the time Barnes hits his prime. Wemby of course will leap into that superstar tier by year three if he stays healthy. So that leaves a few spots open in that top tier.

Who from the new guard will join Luka, Jokic and Wemby as superstars? Are they in the league yet? Can Barnes be one of them?

Tatum, Embiid, SGA are 3 obvious superstars missing from your list.

Tatum maybe, the rest haven't proven it in the playoffs to be up there.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

I mean the original list already was slotting in Wemby as the likely superstar. I would put Tatum/SGA as more likely to be a superstar in 3 years than Wemby just based off the fact those 2 are all-nba talents already.

But it is a fun excercise who are going to be the superstars in 5 years.. my guess:

Luka
Jokic
Wembanyama
Tatum
SGA
Zion (when healthy)

and then the "potential" superstars:
Ja
LaMelo
Edwards
Cunningham
Mobley (I think he is more of an all-defense / DPOY than all-nba guy tho)
Holmgren
Barnes

There is obviously more (like Paolo, who I think has all-star but not all-nba potential) that I left off.

[YogurtProducer]

Tatum, Embiid, SGA are 3 obvious superstars missing from your list.

Embiid, sure.

Tatum feels borderline ish to me. SGA... needs to repeat what he did last season to even begin that conversation. I don't think he's quite there yet. He was closer to a top 15 offensive player last year than top 5. Tatum was similar, a top 10, top 12 kind of guy (specifically on O). Boston had a very well-distributed offense last year and Tatum wasn't some shockingly-proficient playmaker.

You can make a case for either of them, I guess, but they aren't obvious exclusions at all.

I watched GSW beat a high powered Boston team in the finals simply because they figured out they could just guard Tatum one on one with Wiggins and neutralize his one and one scoring and his defence breaking drive and kick game at the same time. My main criteria for superstar is being matchup proof. Of the guys I mentioned, there is nobody on that list who can effectively be slowed down by an individual player or a scheme.

Embiid is a foul merchant which is why his scoring numbers drop drastically in the playoffs. He has a tendency to fade at the end of playoff games, taking too many jumpers or not being assertive enough to get the ball. A change in play style might do wonders for his playoff efficiency but as of right now he’s very hit and miss in the tournament. His results don’t match his talent/tools and you can’t exactly blame a lack of supporting cast in his case. That said, he is usually pretty seriously ailing by the playoffs and playing through it.

SGA…great scorer. Game winners. Etc. But I just don’t feel he elevates the ceiling of a team as much as you’d want from a guy you call a superstar. I can’t even explain why or what it is, but there’s something missing there for me.

I mean in 2011 you also watched the Mavs neutralize Lebron James, or the Raps to Giannis in 2019, etc.

The guy is only 19!!! 25 years old and already is a 30ppg elite scorer, has made multiple ECF / Finals, etc.

[YogurtProducer]

Scottie is our best player. Shocker the 4th pick in the draft is good, but hey tanking doesn't work. Imagine we had top picks in 2022 and this year. With a core of guys like Barnes/Chet and another top pick this year.

All we need to do is pick the best player in the draft every year and we would be awesome!

Masai and co have been good at drafting so they would be able to find talent at the top. Beats having FVV/OG/Siakam probably leave as free agents and signing low level free agents like Dennis and Otto lol.

Quality of FO matters less the higher and higher in the draft you go. That is why the top of the draft has historically the best players despite them being picked (generally) by most incompetent FOs.

That does not change the fact that figuring out which top 5 is a superstar is borderline impossible.

[HiJiNX]

Embiid, sure.

Tatum feels borderline ish to me. SGA... needs to repeat what he did last season to even begin that conversation. I don't think he's quite there yet. He was closer to a top 15 offensive player last year than top 5. Tatum was similar, a top 10, top 12 kind of guy (specifically on O). Boston had a very well-distributed offense last year and Tatum wasn't some shockingly-proficient playmaker.

You can make a case for either of them, I guess, but they aren't obvious exclusions at all.

I watched GSW beat a high powered Boston team in the finals simply because they figured out they could just guard Tatum one on one with Wiggins and neutralize his one and one scoring and his defence breaking drive and kick game at the same time. My main criteria for superstar is being matchup proof. Of the guys I mentioned, there is nobody on that list who can effectively be slowed down by an individual player or a scheme.

Embiid is a foul merchant which is why his scoring numbers drop drastically in the playoffs. He has a tendency to fade at the end of playoff games, taking too many jumpers or not being assertive enough to get the ball. A change in play style might do wonders for his playoff efficiency but as of right now he’s very hit and miss in the tournament. His results don’t match his talent/tools and you can’t exactly blame a lack of supporting cast in his case. That said, he is usually pretty seriously ailing by the playoffs and playing through it.

SGA…great scorer. Game winners. Etc. But I just don’t feel he elevates the ceiling of a team as much as you’d want from a guy you call a superstar. I can’t even explain why or what it is, but there’s something missing there for me.

I mean in 2011 you also watched the Mavs neutralize Lebron James, or the Raps to Giannis in 2019, etc.

The guy is only 19!!! 25 years old and already is a 30ppg elite scorer, has made multiple ECF / Finals, etc.

I had a feeling you’d jump to those examples. :p

With Lebron in 2011 it was a glaring skill deficit and he went and fixed that and won four rings since.

Giannis also added to his skill set (though not as drastically) and modified his approach. But I mean, you can make that argument, sure.

With Tatum though, I’m not sure what you can point to and say if he did that better or if he changes this then he would have been more successful against GSW in the finals. Maybe improve his finishing, which I think he did last year. Result is still the same so far. That said, I really like the addition of Porzingis and that might be enough to put Boston over the top. My main point still stands, he was significantly limited by the quality of D he faced in the finals. And a lot of it has to do with his physical limitations.

But anyway I’m not gonna do the whole back and forth today. I can see how you’d arrive at your stance, I think I just have different opinions/standards/perspectives on this subject (and maybe not a popular way of thinking).

[YogurtProducer]

I watched GSW beat a high powered Boston team in the finals simply because they figured out they could just guard Tatum one on one with Wiggins and neutralize his one and one scoring and his defence breaking drive and kick game at the same time. My main criteria for superstar is being matchup proof. Of the guys I mentioned, there is nobody on that list who can effectively be slowed down by an individual player or a scheme.

Embiid is a foul merchant which is why his scoring numbers drop drastically in the playoffs. He has a tendency to fade at the end of playoff games, taking too many jumpers or not being assertive enough to get the ball. A change in play style might do wonders for his playoff efficiency but as of right now he’s very hit and miss in the tournament. His results don’t match his talent/tools and you can’t exactly blame a lack of supporting cast in his case. That said, he is usually pretty seriously ailing by the playoffs and playing through it.

SGA…great scorer. Game winners. Etc. But I just don’t feel he elevates the ceiling of a team as much as you’d want from a guy you call a superstar. I can’t even explain why or what it is, but there’s something missing there for me.

I mean in 2011 you also watched the Mavs neutralize Lebron James, or the Raps to Giannis in 2019, etc.

The guy is only 19!!! 25 years old and already is a 30ppg elite scorer, has made multiple ECF / Finals, etc.

I had a feeling you’d jump to those examples. :p

With Lebron in 2011 it was a glaring skill deficit and he went and fixed that and won four rings since.

Giannis also added to his skill set (though not as drastically) and modified his approach. But I mean, you can make that argument, sure.

With Tatum though, I’m not sure what you can point to and say if he did that better or if he changes this then he would have been more successful against GSW in the finals. Maybe improve his finishing, which I think he did last year. Result is still the same so far. That said, I really like the addition of Porzingis and that might be enough to put Boston over the top. My main point still stands, he was significantly limited by the quality of D he faced in the finals. And a lot of it has to do with his physical limitations.

But anyway I’m not gonna do the whole back and forth today. I can see how you’d arrive at your stance, I think I just have different opinions/standards/perspectives on this subject (and maybe not a popular way of thinking).

I dont think Tatum needs to really "add" anything. Lots of players had not won a ring at 25 years old and they went on to have incredible careers.

Tatum has had some bad series (GSW 2022, MIA 2023) but it was not like he played bad against other elite teams. He dominated PHI last year, and also MIL/MIA on the finals run in 2022. It will all come together eventually.

[Tha Cynic]

How is Tatum anything but a superstar tbh? Finishes high in MVP voting, best player on a perennial conference finals team and has absurd stats while being a two-way force. lol

Not good enough at either end for me to classify him as a superstar. Also HIGHLY streaky because he's a mid-efficacy volume 3pt shooter with a weak middle game and generally a pretty tepid draw rate.

Who are the superstars in your opinion then? Must be like 3 maybe 4 guys max

Yep. There aren't many in any given season. "Superstar" is a big label. They don't grow on trees.

The Celtics of today remind me of the modern day version of the Derozan and Lowry Raptors. It feels like they're still missing a superstar, but their team is pretty skilled.

[HumbleRen]

How is Tatum anything but a superstar tbh? Finishes high in MVP voting, best player on a perennial conference finals team and has absurd stats while being a two-way force. lol

Not good enough at either end for me to classify him as a superstar. Also HIGHLY streaky because he's a mid-efficacy volume 3pt shooter with a weak middle game and generally a pretty tepid draw rate.

Who are the superstars in your opinion then? Must be like 3 maybe 4 guys max

Yep. There aren't many in any given season. "Superstar" is a big label. They don't grow on trees.

The Celtics of today remind me of the modern day version of the Derozan and Lowry Raptors. It feels like they're still missing a superstar, but their team is pretty skilled.

What am I reading man lol

[tsherkin]

I mean in 2011 you also watched the Mavs neutralize Lebron James, or the Raps to Giannis in 2019, etc.

With you here. Even Jordan wasn't "matchup proof" and had issues where he got his volume but his efficiency was noticeably reduced. And the Lebron mention was a good one. Dirk, too, prior to really emphasizing his post game for height mismatches.

The guy is only 19!!! 25 years old and already is a 30ppg elite scorer, has made multiple ECF / Finals, etc.

SGA is very good. My only issue is that "very good" and "superstar" aren't the same in my book (granted, I'm speaking of my personal view of what a superstar is). His impact numbers aren't first tier in this league, though, so we already know that he isn't at that level (yet?). Maybe you have a tier above "superstar," but that's the top level for me.

Embiid is a foul merchant which is why his scoring numbers drop drastically in the playoffs. He has a tendency to fade at the end of playoff games, taking too many jumpers or not being assertive enough to get the ball.

If you assume his value comes only from his offense, I'd get you; his drop-offs are David Robinson-level, for sure, but he is also an impact defender, which does help mitigate that drop-off to at least some extent.

But also, no, being a foul merchant isn't why his scoring numbers drop-off in the postseason. He draws at .555 FTr in the RS and .558 in the PS. There's no change, no loss of efficacy there. The reason he has issues is that he completely loses his touch from 3-15 feet. And tbf, he was actually pretty good from 20-22. It was 18, 19 and last season where he notably struggled. You can, of course, nitpick individual series for sure. He's not an ATG postseason performer, but there is some degree of recency bias involved in how people speak of him.

[tsherkin]

The Celtics of today remind me of the modern day version of the Derozan and Lowry Raptors. It feels like they're still missing a superstar, but their team is pretty skilled.

More depth than we had. Not really sure I'd draw a comparison to our DeRozan-era Raps for those Celtics. And Tatum has been, on average, at least as good on O as DeRozan was in his best season for us, so I'm not sure that's a particularly apt player comparison, either.