RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #40 (Rick Barry)

[Doctor MJ]

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
DraymondGold
Dutchball97
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
Gibson22
HeartBreakKid
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
JimmyFromNz
Joao Saraiva
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
OldSchoolNoBull
penbeast0
Rishkar
rk2023
Samurai
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ty 4191
ZeppelinPage

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Rick Barry


Elgin Baylor


Anthony Davis


Artis Gilmore


Dolph Schayes

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - Rick Barry
Vote 2 - Artis Gilmore
Nomination 1 - Clyde Drexler
Nomination 2 - George Gervin

Nice to see Schayes make the cut. Looking forward to doing a writeup for him!

Barry's '75 title run is just really impressive culminating in a sweep of the 60 win #1 ranked SRS bullets. Going up against Unseld, Hayes, Chenier and Porter was a very formidable opponent. He put up 29.5 PPG, 4 RPG, 5 APG, 3.5 SPG, .8 BPG on 44.4% FG and 93.8% FT (8 FTAs per game) in the series.

It's tough to parse out what he did in the ABA as it was in its early years and clearly weaker. That said he really did dominate the competition. In '69 for the oakland oaks he had a crazy +11.4 rTS, albeit in 35 games. He did follow that up with a +7.6 rTS in '70 on a relatively high volume 27.7 PPG on 58.2% TS.

I think Barry is more versatile than given credit for, especially as a playmaker. Longevity is just so so by my standards, but i've already voted in guys with similar longevity. I think he's accomplished enough overall for this range.

As for Gilmore, here are some things that impressed me in his 17 year career:

He used his size very well to create space, but it was more about agility than just sheer power. Far more athletic than you'd expect from someone his size as a finisher. He could go up in one fluid motion, absorb contact, and finish off balance without being right at the rim. As a rookie in the ABA, he took the league by storm, winning MVP and leading Kentucky to a league best 68-16 record. They finished 44-40 in the prior season. In his '75 championship run, he put up the following:

24.1 PPG, 17.6 RPG, 2.5 APG, 1 SPG, 2.1 BPG, 53.9% FG, 77.2% FT, 60.2% TS, 114 ORtg

He also had a monster 28 points and 31 boards in the title clincher. Even if we adjust for pace and a marginally lower overall talent level in the ABA, he still comes out looking rather impressive. And at the end of the day, I value his contribution to that championship highly regardless of any variables you want throw in there. Per David Friedman of 20 Second Timeout:

ABA Commissioner Dave DeBusschere challenged the NBA champion Golden State Warriors to play a three game series against Kentucky but, not surprisingly, the established league declined, realizing that it had nothing to gain and potentially a lot to lose in staging such a matchup.

Gilmore's post-ABA longevity from '77-'86 (age 27-36)

19 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 2.1 APG, .6 SPG, 2.1 BPG, 60% FG, 72% FT, 64.6% TS, 118 ORtg

That's 10 seasons of consistent production well into his 30s. While he may get knocked for being a passive scorer as his career went on, I appreciate his ability to still be an effective second option with a volume scorer like Gervin. He didn't have as much playoff success in the NBA as he did in the ABA, but also faced tough competition along the way. In '77, '81, and '83, his teams would lose to the eventual NBA champs.

[trex_8063]

Induction Vote: Elgin Baylor

Piggy-backing on comments from post #28 of the last [#39] thread......

A partial case for Baylor follows:

Spoiler:

The opening salvo to get Elgin Baylor on the list of eligible candidates (from my archives):


I view him as a very good [not great] scorer in his era.......a modern(ish) comp [as a scorer only] maybe being Carmelo Anthony.

But although he's a touch shorter than Melo, I'm not sure he wouldn't be a slightly better rebounder, even in the modern era. I know the league was marginally shorter and a bit less athletic at that time, but Baylor's pre-injury rebounding numbers are resoundingly impressive. Here are his reb/100 possession estimates by year:
'59: 15.3
'60: 15.85
'61: 17.75
'62: 16.3
‘63: 13.9

For comparison, here are some notable big-time big-men and their reb/100 possession estimates for the same years (and relation to Baylor's avg):
Pettit
'59: 17.1 (+1.8)
'60: 16.9 (+1.05)
'61: 18.9 (+1.15)
'62: 17.1 (+0.8)
‘63: 16.0 (+2.1)

Wilt
'59: na
'60: 20.9 (+5.05)
'61: 20.7 (+2.95)
'62: 19.4 (+3.1)
‘63: 19.9 (+6.0)

Russell
'59: 20.2 (+4.9)
'60: 19.9 (+4.05)
'61: 19.3 (+1.55)
'62: 16.3 (+2.8)
‘63: 19.9 (+6.0)

Wayne Embry
'59: 15.5 (+0.2)
'60: 17.1 (+1.25)
'61: 15.1 (-2.65)
'62: 14.3 (-2.0)
‘63: 15.0 (+1.1)

Walter Dukes
'59: 16.7 (+1.4)
'60: 16.1 (+0.25)
'61: 19.2 (+1.45)
'62: 16.4 (+0.1)
‘63: 15.7 (+1.8)

Dolph Schayes
'59: 14.4 (-0.9)
'60: 13.2 (-2.65)
'61: 11.9 (-5.85)
'62: 11.05 (-5.25)

Bailey Howell
'59: na
'60: 13.1 (-2.75)
'61: 14.3 (-3.45)
'62: 13.5 (-2.8)
‘63: 12.2 (-1.7)

When viewing that I'd note two things: every single one of those guys is taller than Elgin, and every single one of them was more a low-post player on one or both ends (so presumably would more frequently [than Elgin] be in the position to grab rebounds). And yet he's at least in the neighborhood of all of them except for Wilt and Russell----who are both a) legitimately BIG and b) legitimately freakish athletes, and c) considered on the short-list of greatest rebounders ever (and even Russell isn't far ahead of him in '61, fwiw).
Otherwise Baylor's reasonably close to everyone else, and well ahead of Schayes and Howell (though admittedly Schayes is trickling into his post-prime for most of the years referenced here).

He was a thick strong guy, good at creating space with his lower body, could jump (isn't he labeled the "grandfather of hang-time" or some such?), and seems to have had great anticipation for where the rebound was going (a la Jerry Lucas, Fat Lever, and Jason Kidd). All this has me suspecting that Baylor would be special kind of rebounder for the SF position in any era (maybe likened to Shawn Marion in this regard).


Basic WOWY:
‘59: 33-37 (.471) with, 0-2 without
‘60: 23-47 (.329) with, 2-3 (.400) without
‘61: 34-39 (.466) with, 2-4 (.333) without
‘62: 37-11 (.771) with, 17-15 (.531) without **West missed only 5 games, no one else in the regular rotation missed more than 2 games
‘63: 52-28 (.650) with


The Lakers in ‘58 were 19-53 with an SRS of -5.78. And then they obtained rookie Elgin Baylor.
In ‘59--with Baylor being the only relevant player acquisition--they improved by 14 games to 33-39, SRS of -1.42 (+4.36 improvement); also made it to the finals (defeating the 2.89 SRS defending champion Hawks 4-2 along the way). That strikes me as indication of fairly significant impact.

The big criticism on Baylor has been his offensive efficiency (relative to his astronomical volume), and whether he was really “helping” the offense.

The Laker team offensive rating improved with rookie Baylor by +2.8 (+1.4 in rORTG terms) in ‘59. I won’t claim that Baylor always “helped the offense optimally” to the best of his abilities; but I do think he helped it. Obviously other metrics of offensive production/efficiency suggest Baylor was a “big deal” (more on that below)......but what I’m beginning to wonder about is whether or not Baylor had a defensive impact that hasn’t been properly appreciated.

Maybe his capability as a rebounder eliminated a lot of second-chance points for opponents????

idk, but something I noted is that the Laker team rDRTG improved by -2.8 in ‘59. In ‘58, they were 8th of 8 defensively, DRtg +4.5 over league avg and +2.5 over the next worse team.
In ‘59, improved to +1.7 over league avg (6th of 8).
They would continue to improve defensively over the next couple of seasons with acquisitions of Jerry West and aging Ray Felix. And then interestingly their defense appears to suffer slightly in ‘62 when Baylor misses significant games:
In ‘61, the Laker DRtg is -1.3 to league average (again: minus is good), 4th of 8.
In ‘62 Baylor misses 32 games and the Laker DRtg falls a little: just -0.3 vs league average (though still 4th of 9).
In ‘63: no more big Ray Felix in playing significant minutes in the middle and Jerry West misses 25 games (things you’d expect to hurt the team defense); they otherwise obtain guard Dick Barnett, and the only other change from the previous year is that Baylor is healthy (doesn’t miss a game)…….and the team DRtg improves to -1.2 vs league average (3rd of 9).
And then beginning in ‘64 (perhaps non-coincidentally just as Baylor begins to be significantly hampered by knee injuries, which causes his overall effectiveness to suffer, as seen by sudden drop in PER, etc), the Laker team DRtg takes a sudden dip……...And it would never recovery to a better than average team defense (even with big bodies like Darrall Imhoff and Mel Counts) until ‘69 when they obtained Wilt Chamberlain.

So I’m starting to wonder if Baylor had a bigger impact defensively than he’s typically given credit for.
And I sort of wonder if he isn't like Carmelo Anthony scoring, Shawn Marion on the glass, with defense somewhere in between (and a little better passer than either). That's an awfully good player.

Anyway…..
Otherwise, I promised some tidbits regarding his overall production and efficiency during his prime years:

In ‘59 and rookie Elgin Baylor had the 2nd-highest PER in the league, behind only a peak Bob Pettit.
In ‘60 he had the 2nd-highest PER in the league, behind only Wilt Chamberlain.
In ‘61: he had the highest PER (even ahead of Wilt, not to mention Pettit and rookie Oscar Robertson).
‘62 and ‘63: 2nd-best PER in the league both years, behind only Wilt Chamberlain (even ahead of triple-double season Robertson, as well as Pettit and Walt Bellamy’s insane rookie season).

That’s a super-impressive 5-year span. Yes, he drops off quite a bit after, but it’s not as though he faded into obscurity or ineffectiveness in subsequent years. He was a relevant player until ‘70. So…..


For another comparison:

Kevin Durant (‘10-’14) rs
Per 100 Possessions: 38.7 pts, 10.0 reb, 5.1 ast on 61.7% TS% (+8.0% on league avg)
26.9 PER, .250 WS/48 in 38.8 mpg

Elgin Baylor (‘59-’63) rs
Estimated Per 100 Possessions: 30.3 pts, 15.7 reb, 4.2 ast on 49.9 TS% (+2.7%)
26.1 PER, .195 WS/48 in 42.1 mpg


Kevin Durant (‘10-’14) playoffs
Per 100 Possessions: 35.8 pts, 10.2 reb, 5.2 ast on .583 TS% (+4.6%)
24.4 PER, .189 WS/48 in 42.3 mpg

Elgin Baylor (‘59-’63) playoffs
Estimated Per 100 Possessions: 30.4 pts, 13.2 reb, 3.5 ast on 51.2 TS% (+4.0%)
25.1 PER, .183 WS/48 in 44.0 mpg

Spoiler:

When thinking about what has driven improvement in the league......integration has helped, but I suspect most of us agree that probably the biggest factor is size of player pool.

And obviously things like scheming/coaching/strategy/analytics have helped toward getting players guided toward better and more effective outcomes. Skills training, shot mechanics, etc, have also evolved, improving the all-around quality of play. However, these latter things are all EXTRINSIC factors: they are things that players from 50-60 years ago would have absorbed if they had been immersed in them from day one (like today's players).

Otherwise, increasing the size of the player pool that the league can tap into is probably the largest driver of improved player quality.

And I think arguably the biggest driver in player pool size is the popularity of the game. As such, I think there is something to be said for those players who were, quite simply, big draws: the guys that put butts in seats, and who inspired the imaginations of younger generations of players.

I bring this up as another small plug for Elgin Baylor. In his time, he was certainly someone who fits this distinction. I'll offer one quote:

“.....Fans specifically came to see him [Baylor]. When he was on military duty and playing sporadically, they called the box office before games to ask if he would be appearing. The Lakers front office had run figures calculating Baylor’s ability to sell tickets, and they determined that in games when he did not play, the Lakers drew an average of 2,000 fewer fans. That amounted to approximately $6,000 per game, or $200,000 over the course of a season….”

I'd place the career of either of these guys ahead of that of Rick Barry. Will try to post more to that sentiment later.
Suffice to say that I think we're getting on toward long overdue for having Baylor at least listed among the nominees. I don't think his career is behind Barry's, and I simply have a very hard time seeing it FAR behind.

Alt. Induction Vote: Artis Gilmore
Glad to see he got on the ballot finally. Me leaning toward longevity a bit more puts him in high contention here. I sort of view his career like Dwight Howard, but with better durability/longevity. Similarities include both being freakishly athletic big men who peaked kinda early; terrific finishers around the rim who were also defensive giants when their athleticism was still at its apex (though admittedly falling off quickly once injury took its toll on that athleticism: both had their affectiveness on that end drop dramatically before the age of 30). Both fantastic rebounders, limited passers.

Gilmore led a team to an ABA championship [as clear best player] in his 4th season. Dwight led his team [as clear best player] as far as the NBA Finals in his 5th season.

The major difference [for me], is Artis had better longevity.


Nomination: Clyde Drexler
Alt Nom: Paul Pierce

(fwiw, Pau Gasol is the other guy I'd really like to nominate, but he has no traction presently; so I'll go with Pierce instead)

[AEnigma]

VOTE: Rick Barry
Alternate: Artis Gilmore
NOMINATE: Paul Pierce
AltNom: Dwight Howard

I am a bit more impressed by Barry relative to Gilmore: I think he stood out more positionally, and while that is a product of Gilmore’s position being more competitive, if the average value of Gilmore’s seasons is closer to prime Dikembe or McHale (top ~50 players in their own right, to be clear), that gives me some pause. Barry on the other hand has the distinction of being the best passing forward pre-Bird (imo), and while I agree that he had good defensive support in 1975, I think it is worth remembering that Gilmore had one of the best supporting casts in the ABA and ultimately won his sole title going through two -4 SRS teams and a +1 SRS team.

Turning to nominations, I had a lengthier discussion on Pierce in the #35 thread. Have him right in line with Jason Kidd but am willing to defer slightly to Kidd on the basis of peak accomplishments (MVP contention, back-to-back Finals as the best player — albeit in the a conference that did not have any of the top three teams and probably not even any of the top four or five times). I do not see a meaningful gap in their respective RAPM values, WOWY values, number of seasons at a certain level of play…

For alternates, I have no passion for other likely nominees at this stage. I want to start pushing centres once I sort out my order. I think Cowens, Mourning, Howard, and Lanier all have reasonably valid cases, although I recognise Lanier is the toughest as the one with the least playoff success. Howard has the early support of that group, but I have been less forgiving of short peaks/primes than most.

Rinse and repeat. Lot of mileage off hot streaks, so curious where guys like McGrady end up going.

[penbeast0]

Vote: Artis Gilmore: Not the personality type I want as my leader, would have been a much greater player if less passive, but an incredible physical talent who would score, defend the post, block shots, and even shoot FTs very well for a big.

Alt Vote: Anthony Davis Not sold on him as I just don't think he can be counted on year in and year out but can be a very good second option when healthy and not sold on anyone else yet.

Nominate: Draymond Green: Impact monster, great defense, enough offense with his playmaking and occasional 3 point shooting to be positive on that end though not a lot.

Alt nomination: Kevin McHale: Russell Westbrook is the best player left but it's just really hard to build a great team around him with his playstyle. Too ball dominant to be that inefficient in a league where we've seen how important spacing and efficiency are. Possibly in a previous era, I'd have voted him in already but no way to know how well he'd translate in a different situation. Considered Pierce, Lillard, and Schayes as well, feel free to talk me into changing my nomination.

[ShaqAttac]

VOTE

DAVIS

crazy d and good o and went crazy for a chip once. also busted the dubs for good. idk why no ones talkin bout him.

BARRY
i dont really know if hes the best, but he led a team to a chip so

I'm gonna nom

WALTON

chip and mvp and swept kareem. some ppl say his impact might have been even higher

WESTBROOK

good args were made for him carryin kd in okc and he won an mvp after.

[trelos6]

Vote: Rick Barry Barry had 2 weak MVP level seasons, 9 All NBA, 11 All Star, and 3 All D level seasons. Very good floor spacer, and decent passer for his position. Volume scoring was ok. Peak seaons was 25.4 pp75 on +0.7 rTS%. 3 year PS was 26.4 pp75 on -1 rTS%.


Alternate vote: Dolph Schayes

I was considering Dolph Schayes here. Probably the second best player of the 50's. Schayes had 8 seasons over 10 WS, 7 seasons over .200 for WS/48. Compare that with Jason Kidd's 2 and 0 seasons, Stocktons 13 and 14, Miller's 11 and 5. Suggests he's in the ball park. Ultimately, I have him at 2 weak MVP level seasons, 8 All NBA Seasons, 12 All Star seasons. His peak 3yr PS was 25.3 pp75 on +7 rTS%, and regular season he was around 17-18 pp75 on +5-6 rTS%.

Nomination: Dwight Howard

Fantastic defender in his prime. Also had very good rim gravity. Yes, couldn't do anything outside the rim, but boy was he amazing with his catch radius and dunking prowess. Hung around due to his defensive ability. Great weak MVP level peak (at this point in the top 100), and 10+ years as an All-D level center.

alt Nomination: Joel Embiid


It comes down to Westbrook v Embiid. Guys like Pierce, McHale, Payton, Isiah, didn’t reach the heights of Westbrook or Embiid. One was a high octane play creator, the other a fantastic defensive presence. Both were force of will scorers. I think I’ll give the nod to Jojo. Although I can appreciate the Westbrook argument.

[penbeast0]

VOTE

DAVIS

crazy d and good o and went crazy for a chip once. also busted the dubs for good. idk why no ones talkin bout him.

BARRY
i dont really know if hes the best, but he led a team to a chip so

I'm gonna nom

WALTON

chip and mvp and swept kareem. some ppl say his impact might have been even higher

WESTBROOK

good args were made for him carryin kd in okc and he won an mvp after.

So, if you had an NBA team, you'd take the guy (Walton) who had ONE season where he was healthy in the playoffs as a starter plus one as a reserve, and only one other season over 60 games over the likes of Embiid or McHale?

And he was a guy who demanded the contemporary equivalent of supermax money every year until he went ring chasing to a team (Boston) that was already one of the league's 3 superteams.

[Samurai]

Vote for #40: Artis Gilmore. Gotta admit that when I watched him play, I was never a big Gilmore fan. And I admit that in his later years, he was largely immobile and deserved his moniker of Rigor Artis. But in his prime, he was a very good center. In his prime, he had a decent array of moves in the low post to get his (very) high percentage shots off, whereas in his later years he was largely limited to putbacks and dunks. He was a solid defender (four time All ABA Defensive First Team and once on the All NBA Defensive Second Team), a very strong rebounder and excellent screen setter. To my eyes, he was the strongest player in the game during the post-Wilt and pre-Shaq years. He won a ring in 75, was the Playoffs MVP that year, league MVP in 72, and made 11 All Star games in his 18-year career.

Alternate vote: Elgin Baylor. Baylor was more highly regarded in his day than he is now. Back then when more advanced stats were unheard of and points were king, he was considered one of the very best in the game since he was a great volume scorer. Now we can look at his stats and realize he was not a particularly efficient shooter and in hindsight it would have made more sense to have West be the primary alpha on offense rather than splitting that role with Baylor. But we're getting to the point in looking at the others not yet nominated that Baylor deserves a mention. He was a ten-time All NBA First Team member, finished in the top 5 in points/game 8 times, and an excellent rebounder with 8 top ten finishes in rebounds/game. And while not known as much for his playmaking as his scoring, he still had 6 top ten finishes in assists/game. In the days before Dr J and long before MJ, Baylor was a pioneer in combining strength with grace, hops and that seemingly impossible trait of "hanging in the air" longer than what many deemed possible. I only saw Baylor play live after injuries took away much of his earlier athleticism, so the "magic" of Baylor was more what my dad would tell me about how incredible he was in his younger days. When my dad saw Dr J, and later Jordan, he felt he was seeing a younger Baylor reincarnated.

Nomination: Dwight Howard. If I were starting a team, I am not sure who I would draft first between Howard and Gilmore. But since it is very close for me, it only feels right that if Artis is now one of the nominees that Dwight should be as well. DPOY for three consecutive years should be reason enough. But he was also an elite rebounder, leading the league in rebounds/game 5 times and finished in the top ten 13 times. Averaged 20+ points/game 4 times and finished in the top twenty in TS% 9 times despite being a poor FT shooter. He has had some durability issues with injuries, his propensity to draw technicals isn't helpful and he brings some locker room drama, all of which has kept me from nominating him thus far. But I think we are at a point where he deserves some consideration.

Alternate nomination: Russell Westbrook. Not a fan and I wouldn't necessarily want him on my team if I were picking from scratch. But I'm having trouble continuing to not nominate him based on my personal playstyle preferences. MVP in 2017 and 9-time All NBA Team member (2 first team, 5 second team and 2 third team selections). Led the league twice in points/game and three times in assists/game. I don't highly value his triple doubles since I tend to think he was a stat padder, particularly his rebounding, but he was still a very good defensive rebounder for a guard.

[HeartBreakKid]

VOTE

DAVIS

crazy d and good o and went crazy for a chip once. also busted the dubs for good. idk why no ones talkin bout him.

BARRY
i dont really know if hes the best, but he led a team to a chip so

I'm gonna nom

WALTON

chip and mvp and swept kareem. some ppl say his impact might have been even higher

WESTBROOK

good args were made for him carryin kd in okc and he won an mvp after.

So, if you had an NBA team, you'd take the guy (Walton) who had ONE season where he was healthy in the playoffs as a starter plus one as a reserve, and only one other season over 60 games over the likes of Embiid or McHale?

And he was a guy who demanded the contemporary equivalent of supermax money every year until he went ring chasing to a team (Boston) that was already one of the league's 3 superteams.

Sounds more like you're talking about "who would you rather draft?".

[Owly]

VOTE

DAVIS

crazy d and good o and went crazy for a chip once. also busted the dubs for good. idk why no ones talkin bout him.

BARRY
i dont really know if hes the best, but he led a team to a chip so

I'm gonna nom

WALTON

chip and mvp and swept kareem. some ppl say his impact might have been even higher

WESTBROOK

good args were made for him carryin kd in okc and he won an mvp after.

So, if you had an NBA team, you'd take the guy (Walton) who had ONE season where he was healthy in the playoffs as a starter plus one as a reserve, and only one other season over 60 games over the likes of Embiid or McHale?

And he was a guy who demanded the contemporary equivalent of supermax money every year until he went ring chasing to a team (Boston) that was already one of the league's 3 superteams.

Sounds more like you're talking about "who would you rather draft?".

Don't think "who would you rather have" is a wild variation on a career rating system. So I'm not sure "more" as a marker of implied distinction from something else (perhaps a "true" method) makes sense here. So, to me, I think the question makes more sense without it. And I think one mod has been explicit about thinking about themself as though a GM (Doc) and Pen has long been on the record of accounting for cost and the impact that his (most notably in Walton's case).


Fwiw, I'm curious who the 3rd superteam is after '85.
Boston are are obvious 2x champs and SRS above 6 on average for the preceding 5 years (81-85).
Lakers are assumed next 2x champs in the prior 5 years (+1 immediately before), defending champs but 4th in average SRS and over a point behind 3rd. But considerably better than Philly (2nd in 5 year SRS and 1x champs) in the immediately prior two years, plus the rings (plus the in retrospect further rings and better teams, if that counts ... even if it doesn't it can be hard for our brains to "unsee" it, not be subconsciously influenced). Plus big star name power, big, glitzy market.

Options seem like Philly, Milwaukee and Detroit:

Detroit are the worst case for me. Middle of the pack SRS for the prior half decade (very slightly negative), solid circa 3 for the past couple of years. The franchise would go on to win a couple of titles down the line, is where I see some might get to them.

Milwaukee are probably looking like the best team going immediately forward. Best SRS in '85. Functionally tied with Philly for 2nd/3rd SRS of the half decade prior (5.514 to Philly's 5.518) only one rotation player in the '85 roster at Reference age 29 or above and Cummings could be expected to improve. And would, IRL, post a clear league 2nd best SRS of 8.69 in '86 (if we're working with that info, obviously Walton couldn't have had even a points diff version of it in the '85 offseason). But they don't have a "chip" then or in that vague vicinity in retrospect. It's a team I like (I mean in retrospect, in a find out about these great teams, perhaps unheralded ones, that didn't win titles kind of way) but it doesn't match the superstar archetype of "superteam."

Philly are the name brand and the other title winner. They have the stars (and name "role players"). They are who I'd guess Pen may be thinking if I had to put money on it. But the past two years sees an SRS of 3.28 (distant 4th to LA's 4.9, Mil's 5.365 and Boston's 6.445). And if Barkley's set to burst out, Jones (perhaps more predictably) and Malone (somewhat less so) are about to fall back and Erving will continue to do so. Toney's absence would hurt and further expose a lack depth, I don't know when people would have learned about the severity of his injuries, but my first guess [and looking what a paper from the time says] suggests this would become known after Walton's move.

[penbeast0]

We all still thought of Philly as the 3rd superteam even though they had injuries (Toney mainly) and some disappointments.

[Owly]

We all still thought of Philly as the 3rd superteam even though they had injuries (Toney mainly) and some disappointments.

Won't speak to beliefs of "all" at the time. I wasn't really there (and "all" is ... a broad brush).

I can imagine with the title and the stars and '85 wins substantially exceeding pythag wins (43rd luckiest team through 2019 in terms of wins versus pythag wins [averaging across a range of pythag variants], 29th by Reference's 14 exponent version, this includes some early NBL/BAA and ABA teams ahead that add to the total teams and could make things janky).

I will say per above (just team goodness the prior two years and age profile) they probably shouldn't have been.

Looking at Hollander, 'The Complete Handbook ...' does seem to regard them not to be in Boston's tier ("good enough to finish second in the Atlantic Division again, but anything beyond that would be surprising" - which as a prediction given the teams below - Nets and Bullets were likely to be next, likely merely required being circa above average), expresses concern about aging, expresses some concern over Goukas (and relates he's apparent clear non-first choice - 76ers couldn't agree compensation for Daly with Detroit), expresses thoughts that it could be time to rebuild. One source, then, at the time seems not to regard them as "Super" at this point.

Tangent: '86 team were even luckier in exceeding expected wins.

[penbeast0]

We all is a southern colloquialism meaning my friends and I, not necessarily the world. But yes, Philly had definitely declined as Julius and Bobby Jones aged and we quit thinking of them as a top tier team when they traded Moses at the end of 86.

With all the top 100 talent (Moses, Doc, B.Jones, Barkley, maybe Cheeks) still around, we thought there was a chance they could put it together in the playoffs still despite being more meh in the regular season whereas I (at the time) didn't think Milwaukee, Atlanta, etc. had a real chance against the Celtics. The previous upset of Boston by Milwaukee being quite a shocker at the time and Milwaukee that year had then lost to Philly.

[iggymcfrack]

Vote: Anthony Davis
Much better era-relative stats than the other candidates while playing in a much tougher era. Like he has a better PER in the 2015 NBA and 2019 NBA than Barry had in the 1969 ABA and Barry fell off hard when he had to face the tougher competition of even a more competitive ABA. If he had to play in the 2019 NBA, he wouldn't be remotely on Davis' level. AD is also an elite defender and a playoff riser who's only missed one playoff game due to injury in his entire career.

Nominate: Russell Westbrook
One of the most dominant seasons of all-time in 2017 with a nice 6-7 year prime surrounding it. Has reached a much higher level than anyone yet to be nominated. Everbody knows about the incredible box numbers, but from 2013-2018, Russ had an on/off of +8.8 in the regular season and +17.0 in the postseason. For comparison's sake, Kevin Durant had on/offs of +7.4 and +7.6 over the same span. Russ was absolutely the playmaking engine that led the Thunder and doesn't get anywhere near enough credit for his peak ability even if he admittedly was pretty much done as an impact player by 30.

[Mogspan]

Vote: Rick Barry Barry had 2 weak MVP level seasons, 9 All NBA, 11 All Star, and 3 All D level seasons. Very good floor spacer, and decent passer for his position. Volume scoring was ok. Peak seaons was 25.4 pp75 on +0.7 rTS%. 3 year PS was 26.4 pp75 on -1 rTS%.


Alternate vote: Dolph Schayes

I was considering Dolph Schayes here. Probably the second best player of the 50's. Schayes had 8 seasons over 10 WS, 7 seasons over .200 for WS/48. Compare that with Jason Kidd's 2 and 0 seasons, Stocktons 13 and 14, Miller's 11 and 5. Suggests he's in the ball park. Ultimately, I have him at 2 weak MVP level seasons, 8 All NBA Seasons, 12 All Star seasons. His peak 3yr PS was 25.3 pp75 on +7 rTS%, and regular season he was around 17-18 pp75 on +5-6 rTS%.

Nomination: Dwight Howard

Fantastic defender in his prime. Also had very good rim gravity. Yes, couldn't do anything outside the rim, but boy was he amazing with his catch radius and dunking prowess. Hung around due to his defensive ability. Great weak MVP level peak (at this point in the top 100), and 10+ years as an All-D level center.

alt Nomination: Joel Embiid


It comes down to Westbrook v Embiid. Guys like Pierce, McHale, Payton, Isiah, didn’t reach the heights of Westbrook or Embiid. One was a high octane play creator, the other a fantastic defensive presence. Both were force of will scorers. I think I’ll give the nod to Jojo. Although I can appreciate the Westbrook argument.

There's a bigger difference between Anthony Davis and Dolph Schayes than there is between Dolph Schayes and Lisa Leslie.

Of all the candidates, AD has the best numbers. He's the best and most versatile defender and has 8 All-Star selections. He's just... better and more valuable in any era than Rick Barry, who was 6x All-NBA, not 9x.

Not trying to pick on you in particular, but I think recency bias is distorting people's perceptions of AD's career as a whole. His precocity (First Team All-NBA by 2015, his third year) paved the way for some sneaky-respectable longevity, as even though people consider him a shell of himself, he was recently the second best player in the entire playoffs after Jokić.

Not only that, but his 2018-2020 stretch as arguably the best player in the solar system dwarfs the peaks of every other candidate despite playing against superior athletes in an impossibly more competitive era.

It’s not his fault that his teams were exceptionally poorly constructed and that he and his teammates were plagued by injuries early on because the Bensons used the New Orleans Saints' strength and conditioning crew to cut costs.

[trelos6]

There's a bigger difference between Anthony Davis and Dolph Schayes than there is between Dolph Schayes and Lisa Leslie.

Of all the candidates, AD has the best numbers. He's the best and most versatile defender and has 8 All-Star selections. He's just... better and more valuable in any era than Rick Barry, who was 6x All-NBA, not 9x.

Not trying to pick on you in particular, but I think recency bias is distorting people's perceptions of AD's career as a whole. His precocity (First Team All-NBA by 2015, his third year) paved the way for some sneaky-respectable longevity, as even though people consider him a shell of himself, he was recently the second best player in the entire playoffs after Jokić.

Not only that, but his 2018-2020 stretch as arguably the best player in the solar system dwarfs the peaks of every other candidate despite playing against superior athletes in an impossibly more competitive era.

It’s not his fault that his teams were exceptionally poorly constructed and that he and his teammates were plagued by injuries early on because the Bensons used the New Orleans Saints' strength and conditioning crew to cut costs.

Barry also had 3 all-ABA years. Regardless, when I say All-NBA, I mean all NBA level. I had Reggie Miller with 9 All-NBA level seasons. He actually only had 3 3rd team nominations.


Yes, if Dolph played now, AD is light years ahead of him. But you know, if AD played in the 50’s, maybe he doesn’t get the treatment from his injuries and is out of the league in a few years. It’s silly to directly compare players from the 50’s to now, as it’s almost a different game. I’m comparing their values within their respective era’s.

For my estimations, Dolph was 2 x Weak MVP, 8 x All NBA, 12x All Star, 3 x All-D. Davis on the other hand has been 4 x Weak MVP, 5 x All NBA, 8 x All-Star, and 5 x All D. Davis is close, but not quite yet overtaken Dolph as of now.

As for Barry, I have him with 2 x Weak MVP, 9 x All NBA, 11 x All Star. Again, it’s close. Given a few more years, Davis will no doubt finish over both. And if you want to debate Davis now, I think that’s also fine. His peak is greater than the others.

[Doctor MJ]

There's a bigger difference between Anthony Davis and Dolph Schayes than there is between Dolph Schayes and Lisa Leslie.

So, I'm generally the Dolph skeptic around here, but I do think this is too harsh:

Schayes wasn't succeeding in his day by being bigger and stronger than everyone else like Leslie could be said to have been with her competition. Schayes was an adept shooter with a knack for anticipating rebounds despite his lack of physical strength.

It's fair to ask whether Dolph could hack it in today's game, but it's not like there aren't guys about his size thriving today as more finesse players. Whereas of course, no woman would have any chance at outmuscling men, and so if there were to be a woman who could make it in the NBA, it wouldn't be one with Leslie's style of play. Her contemporary Lauren Jackson would have a better chance, and of course, Jackson played arguably more like Dolph than Leslie despite being about the same size as Leslie.

[penbeast0]

There's a bigger difference between Anthony Davis and Dolph Schayes than there is between Dolph Schayes and Lisa Leslie.
....

I don't know about that. Being transgender today is much more acceptable and widely available. Get AD some hormone treatments, shave the unibrow, and . . . viola.

[Ambrose]

Vote: Still Rick Barry, same reasoning as before (super underrated, switch to ABA I believe his hurt his rep).

Alternate: Elgin Baylor, honestly, this is a best or the worst scenario for me. I don't see any of the others being worthy top 40 guys.

Nominate: Dwight Howard, same reasoning as before, (ultra underrated career, high peak, eventually became a great role player).