2023-2024 Regular Season Game 4: Orlando Magic (2-1) at Los Angeles Clippers (2-1) - 10:30pm

[NavalAviator94]

1. PB efficiency & volume
2. Suggs 3pt shooting on 5 per game
3. WCJ shooting
4. Ingles shooting
5. Fultz shooting 3s

IF 1-4 were better, 5 wouldn't be talked about.

I mean if 5 were better. 5 wouldn't be talked about either.

suggs in 4 games will have shot more 3's than Fultz will all year.... but that's not an issue for some

this was the worst case scenario but is what I expect to see a lot this year. Our margin for error on both sides of the ball is soo slim for us to win a lot of games. Ty Lue is a smart coach and you could tell they were told to pack the paint on drives and force us to make 3's. It also looked like a lot of guys just were not interested in playing and if I was Mose the rook's would've gotten much mroe time. You don't want to give effort fine then come sit by me and we can talk after the game. The issue was that vibe was from 3/5 starters and whatever is left of ingles the corpse.

I’m in line with JBSouthpaw and this.

I’m not sure what you do. We definitely need more spacing.

Do you bring Gary back into the starting lineup? Cole can’t run an NBA offense so I don’t see him replacing Fultz. I’d rather see Caleb or Jett getting Ingles minutes at this point and give them the green light.

Fultz is what he is at this point. The best version of him is running, making quick decisions, easy baskets around the rim as he does whatever he wants inside, hitting the midrange and honestly not having enough time to think. We’ve seen him run off screens and hit beautiful shots when he doesn’t have time to think. Speed it up.


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[89Magicfan]

I mean if 5 were better. 5 wouldn't be talked about either.

suggs in 4 games will have shot more 3's than Fultz will all year.... but that's not an issue for some

this was the worst case scenario but is what I expect to see a lot this year. Our margin for error on both sides of the ball is soo slim for us to win a lot of games. Ty Lue is a smart coach and you could tell they were told to pack the paint on drives and force us to make 3's. It also looked like a lot of guys just were not interested in playing and if I was Mose the rook's would've gotten much mroe time. You don't want to give effort fine then come sit by me and we can talk after the game. The issue was that vibe was from 3/5 starters and whatever is left of ingles the corpse.

I’m in line with JBSouthpaw and this.

I’m not sure what you do. We definitely need more spacing.

Do you bring Gary back into the starting lineup? Cole can’t run an NBA offense so I don’t see him replacing Fultz. I’d rather see Caleb or Jett getting his minutes at this point and give them the green light.

Fultz is what he is at this point. The best version of him is running, making quick decisions, easy baskets around the rim as he does whatever he wants inside, hitting the midrange and honestly not having enough time to think. We’ve seen him run off screens and hit beautiful shots when he doesn’t have time to think. Speed it up.


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Fultz’s game doesn’t fit with Paolo/Franz.

It’s been discussed numerous of times because of how apparent it is. The answer lies outside of the roster.

[VFX]

This forum is a trip sometimes. The answer is blatantly obvious.

Paolo is 6’10 260lbs and he needs to be put in positions to utilize his footwork and passing. Yes, he needs to develop a shot. Nothing is coming easy for him when teams have figured out he has trouble finishing through contact and at the point of attack. Fultz is not going to be that guy to take the pressure off of him whether that be through a designed play or from floor spacing.

Yes, guys should be working on their game to mitigate these developments. However, the point should be that Orlando’s front office and coaching staff highlight Paolo’s strengths. That’s not going to happen if they keep rolling out lineups with duplicative skill sets, deficiencies, and can’t get him the **** ball. Adding Gary Harris to a lineup changes nothing. It gives Orlando 1 shooter to pay attention to running off screens.

[76ciology]

I think Paolo has to be used like Giannis. Size of a C but skillset of a wing. Whereas you need to start Isaac, defending 4s (your version of Brolo) and Banchero defending 5s. Then you push the pace whereas Banchero would be lethal on transition because of slower Cs. Then have Banchero hunt mismatches against slower Cs or smaller guards on halfcourt.

[89Magicfan]

I think Paolo has to be used like Giannis. Size of a C but skillset of a wing. Whereas you need to start Isaac, defending 4s (your version of Brolo) and Banchero defending 5s. Then you push the pace whereas Banchero would be lethal on transition because of slower Cs. Then have Banchero hunt mismatches against slower Cs or smaller guards on halfcourt.

Maybe issue still there is having backcourt that doesn’t spread the floor. I do believe Suggs will continue to improve but Fultz to me is the one that continues to show his game does not fit.

[76ciology]

I think Paolo has to be used like Giannis. Size of a C but skillset of a wing. Whereas you need to start Isaac, defending 4s (your version of Brolo) and Banchero defending 5s. Then you push the pace whereas Banchero would be lethal on transition because of slower Cs. Then have Banchero hunt mismatches against slower Cs or smaller guards on halfcourt.

Maybe issue still there is having backcourt that doesn’t spread the floor. I do believe Suggs will continue to improve but Fultz to me is the one that continues to show his game does not fit.

He should play off the bench, kind of CP3’s role with the Warriors. Creating shots along with mid scorers.

Suggs is a good fit, he’s kind of like Jrue in my preferred set-up. Franz as better version of Middleton.

[eyriq]

I think Paolo has to be used like Giannis. Size of a C but skillset of a wing. Whereas you need to start Isaac, defending 4s (your version of Brolo) and Banchero defending 5s. Then you push the pace whereas Banchero would be lethal on transition because of slower Cs. Then have Banchero hunt mismatches against slower Cs or smaller guards on halfcourt.

I like the sound of this.

[VFX]

I believe this is also why we are seeing Carter take a bunch of 3’s this season.

Mosley is trying to open up the floor and is using every available option. It just doesn’t work as efficiently as you’d want when you bring the other big out of the paint.

[basketballRob]

11 missed FTs again, this is a major issue

They just didn't appear to have their legs. Mosely will have to do a better job of judging how much they run the players before b2b games.

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[Def Swami]

Through 4 games, each opponent has basically ignored Fultz and Suggs. And are more than happy to allow 4 of the 5 starters to shoot any jump shot they like. Either the team proves they can hit those open shots to keep the defense honest, or it's simply not going to work. The lack of spacing continues to make offense hard on every player on the court (except Gary Harris). Not sure how much of a sample size Mosely wants before making a change. But I don't believe we're seeing any drastic improvement in shooting from any one to suggest this is going to get better.

I feel bad for Suggs, because I do think he's a good player and probably does deserve to start. But the Fultz-Suggs backcourt drastically shrinks the court.

Long term, I do believe Fultz will be odd man out once this is all said and done. Our ceiling is only so high with Fultz's limitations as a shooter. The front office knows this, which is why they didn't extend him.

[eyriq]

Through 4 games, each opponent has basically ignored Fultz and Suggs. And are more than happy to allow 4 of the 5 starters to shoot any jump shot they like. Either the team proves they can hit those open shots to keep the defense honest, or it's simply not going to work. The lack of spacing continues to make offense hard on every player on the court (except Gary Harris). Not sure how much of a sample size Mosely wants before making a change. But I don't believe we're seeing any drastic improvement in shooting from any one to suggest this is going to get better.

I feel bad for Suggs, because I do think he's a good player and probably does deserve to start. But the Fultz-Suggs backcourt drastically shrinks the court.

Long term, I do believe Fultz will be odd man out once this is all said and done. Our ceiling is only so high with Fultz's limitations as a shooter. The front office knows this, which is why they didn't extend him.

How does this starting lineup compare to the one with Harris? I would assume this starting lineup is doing much better.

[Def Swami]

Through 4 games, each opponent has basically ignored Fultz and Suggs. And are more than happy to allow 4 of the 5 starters to shoot any jump shot they like. Either the team proves they can hit those open shots to keep the defense honest, or it's simply not going to work. The lack of spacing continues to make offense hard on every player on the court (except Gary Harris). Not sure how much of a sample size Mosely wants before making a change. But I don't believe we're seeing any drastic improvement in shooting from any one to suggest this is going to get better.

I feel bad for Suggs, because I do think he's a good player and probably does deserve to start. But the Fultz-Suggs backcourt drastically shrinks the court.

Long term, I do believe Fultz will be odd man out once this is all said and done. Our ceiling is only so high with Fultz's limitations as a shooter. The front office knows this, which is why they didn't extend him.

How does this starting lineup compare to the one with Harris? I would assume this starting lineup is doing much better.

Here's the stats:

2022-2023 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Harris - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
570 min
ORTG: 113
DRTG: 111.6
NRTG: +1.4
EFG%: 56%
TS%: 59.3%

2023-2024 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Suggs - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
78 min
ORTG: 105.4
DRTG: 95.1
NRTG: +10.4
EFG%: 49%
TS%: 51.8%

The sample size on this season is still very small (probably skewed by playing a really bad Rockets team on opening night). I think the numbers bear out what we're seeing. The team is really good on defense, but has taken a step back on offense. The shooting and efficiency have been worse. And could explain a little of the collective shooting woes of the team (except Gary Harris, shout out to Gary Harris).

Almost every team we played have essentially done some version of this.

Read on Twitter

There is no lane to drive for Banchero. There is no post play available. The lane is clogged because teams are just helping off the two worst shooters on the court.

There might be some Steve Clifford theory here about finding a way to limit turnovers and make a top 10 defense and guarantee a playoff spot. That might lead to 0.500 record and might be their best path to success this season. Not sure it does much for the ceiling of this team that is governed by the success of Banchero and Wagner finding their games. And this might be Mosely's goal for the season; establish a real defensive identity and hope the players the front office drafted in the lottery learn to shoot. And if not, then the front office got the data they needed to make the decisions to fix this team going forward.

[eyriq]

Through 4 games, each opponent has basically ignored Fultz and Suggs. And are more than happy to allow 4 of the 5 starters to shoot any jump shot they like. Either the team proves they can hit those open shots to keep the defense honest, or it's simply not going to work. The lack of spacing continues to make offense hard on every player on the court (except Gary Harris). Not sure how much of a sample size Mosely wants before making a change. But I don't believe we're seeing any drastic improvement in shooting from any one to suggest this is going to get better.

I feel bad for Suggs, because I do think he's a good player and probably does deserve to start. But the Fultz-Suggs backcourt drastically shrinks the court.

Long term, I do believe Fultz will be odd man out once this is all said and done. Our ceiling is only so high with Fultz's limitations as a shooter. The front office knows this, which is why they didn't extend him.

How does this starting lineup compare to the one with Harris? I would assume this starting lineup is doing much better.

Here's the stats:

2022-2023 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Harris - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
570 min
ORTG: 113
DRTG: 111.6
NRTG: +1.4
EFG%: 56%
TS%: 59.3%

2023-2024 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Suggs - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
78 min
ORTG: 105.4
DRTG: 95.1
NRTG: +10.4
EFG%: 49%
TS%: 51.8%

The sample size on this season is still very small (probably skewed by playing a really bad Rockets team on opening night). I think the numbers bear out what we're seeing. The team is really good on defense, but has taken a step back on offense. The shooting and efficiency have been worse. And could explain a little of the collective shooting woes of the team (except Gary Harris, shout out to Gary Harris).

Almost every team we played have essentially done some version of this.

Read on Twitter

There is no lane to drive for Banchero. There is no post play available. The lane is clogged because teams are just helping off the two worst shooters on the court.

There might be some Steve Clifford theory here about finding a way to limit turnovers and make a top 10 defense and guarantee a playoff spot. That might lead to 0.500 record and might be their best path to success this season. Not sure it does much for the ceiling of this team that is governed by the success of Banchero and Wagner finding their games.

Wow, thanks. Yeah, I had a sense the difference would be something like this. Harris provides a +7.6 on offense, Suggs a +16.5 on defense.

Sample size issue but this is worth tracking. I'd focus on being a top 5 defense and sacrifice offense, especially if the overall net rating favors Suggs over Harris.

[JoshuaPotter]

Through 4 games, each opponent has basically ignored Fultz and Suggs. And are more than happy to allow 4 of the 5 starters to shoot any jump shot they like. Either the team proves they can hit those open shots to keep the defense honest, or it's simply not going to work. The lack of spacing continues to make offense hard on every player on the court (except Gary Harris). Not sure how much of a sample size Mosely wants before making a change. But I don't believe we're seeing any drastic improvement in shooting from any one to suggest this is going to get better.

I feel bad for Suggs, because I do think he's a good player and probably does deserve to start. But the Fultz-Suggs backcourt drastically shrinks the court.

Long term, I do believe Fultz will be odd man out once this is all said and done. Our ceiling is only so high with Fultz's limitations as a shooter. The front office knows this, which is why they didn't extend him.

How does this starting lineup compare to the one with Harris? I would assume this starting lineup is doing much better.

Here's the stats:

2022-2023 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Harris - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
570 min
ORTG: 113
DRTG: 111.6
NRTG: +1.4
EFG%: 56%
TS%: 59.3%

2023-2024 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Suggs - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
78 min
ORTG: 105.4
DRTG: 95.1
NRTG: +10.4
EFG%: 49%
TS%: 51.8%

The sample size on this season is still very small (probably skewed by playing a really bad Rockets team on opening night). I think the numbers bear out what we're seeing. The team is really good on defense, but has taken a step back on offense. The shooting and efficiency have been worse. And could explain a little of the collective shooting woes of the team (except Gary Harris, shout out to Gary Harris).

Almost every team we played have essentially done some version of this.

Read on Twitter

There is no lane to drive for Banchero. There is no post play available. The lane is clogged because teams are just helping off the two worst shooters on the court.

There might be some Steve Clifford theory here about finding a way to limit turnovers and make a top 10 defense and guarantee a playoff spot. That might lead to 0.500 record and might be their best path to success this season. Not sure it does much for the ceiling of this team that is governed by the success of Banchero and Wagner finding their games. And this might be Mosely's goal for the season; establish a real defensive identity and hope the players the front office drafted in the lottery learn to shoot. And if not, then the front office got the data they needed to make the decisions to fix this team going forward.

Everyone on the forum should +1 this.

The idea that "its all one players fault" or a "group of players fault but not Fultz" needs to have some introspection on what is trying to be accomplished.

My initial 5 second guess and I hinted at this last year. We are going to become a defensive powerhouse. That's why we draft Black, that is why we drafted Suggs. The height of PB / Franz / C Howard doesn't hurt us either.

There are some strange anomalies that ill include is PB getting off to a horrendous sophomore start. But overall, lets see how we do against Utah, and go from there.

[Def Swami]

How does this starting lineup compare to the one with Harris? I would assume this starting lineup is doing much better.

Here's the stats:

2022-2023 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Harris - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
570 min
ORTG: 113
DRTG: 111.6
NRTG: +1.4
EFG%: 56%
TS%: 59.3%

2023-2024 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Suggs - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
78 min
ORTG: 105.4
DRTG: 95.1
NRTG: +10.4
EFG%: 49%
TS%: 51.8%

The sample size on this season is still very small (probably skewed by playing a really bad Rockets team on opening night). I think the numbers bear out what we're seeing. The team is really good on defense, but has taken a step back on offense. The shooting and efficiency have been worse. And could explain a little of the collective shooting woes of the team (except Gary Harris, shout out to Gary Harris).

Almost every team we played have essentially done some version of this.

Read on Twitter

There is no lane to drive for Banchero. There is no post play available. The lane is clogged because teams are just helping off the two worst shooters on the court.

There might be some Steve Clifford theory here about finding a way to limit turnovers and make a top 10 defense and guarantee a playoff spot. That might lead to 0.500 record and might be their best path to success this season. Not sure it does much for the ceiling of this team that is governed by the success of Banchero and Wagner finding their games.

Wow, thanks. Yeah, I had a sense the difference would be something like this. Harris provides a +7.6 on offense, Suggs a +16.5 on defense.

Sample size issue but this is worth tracking. I'd focus on being a top 5 defense and sacrifice offense, especially if the overall net rating favors Suggs over Harris.

I think that's the calculation the coaching staff made as well when they decided to start Suggs over Harris. Suggs is proving his value. Which is why I believe if there's a long term change, it's probably at point guard.

The mix on offense is going to look ugly. And we might lose games on math alone. Banchero is going to have to hit those open jumpers and maybe it leads to some development long term. There might be a collection of games we just drop because opposing shooters are hot and we simply can't keep pace.

This is also why I'm so frustrated at the free throw shooting. If we're going to play this way, the team can't leave points at the line. Especially Banchero.

[eyriq]

Here's the stats:

2022-2023 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Harris - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
570 min
ORTG: 113
DRTG: 111.6
NRTG: +1.4
EFG%: 56%
TS%: 59.3%

2023-2024 Starting Lineup (Fultz - Suggs - Wagner - Banchero - Carter)
78 min
ORTG: 105.4
DRTG: 95.1
NRTG: +10.4
EFG%: 49%
TS%: 51.8%

The sample size on this season is still very small (probably skewed by playing a really bad Rockets team on opening night). I think the numbers bear out what we're seeing. The team is really good on defense, but has taken a step back on offense. The shooting and efficiency have been worse. And could explain a little of the collective shooting woes of the team (except Gary Harris, shout out to Gary Harris).

Almost every team we played have essentially done some version of this.

Read on Twitter

There is no lane to drive for Banchero. There is no post play available. The lane is clogged because teams are just helping off the two worst shooters on the court.

There might be some Steve Clifford theory here about finding a way to limit turnovers and make a top 10 defense and guarantee a playoff spot. That might lead to 0.500 record and might be their best path to success this season. Not sure it does much for the ceiling of this team that is governed by the success of Banchero and Wagner finding their games.

Wow, thanks. Yeah, I had a sense the difference would be something like this. Harris provides a +7.6 on offense, Suggs a +16.5 on defense.

Sample size issue but this is worth tracking. I'd focus on being a top 5 defense and sacrifice offense, especially if the overall net rating favors Suggs over Harris.

I think that's the calculation the coaching staff made as well when they decided to start Suggs over Harris. Suggs is proving his value. Which is why I believe if there's a long term change, it's probably at point guard.

The mix on offense is going to look ugly. And we might lose games on math alone. Banchero is going to have to hit those open jumpers and maybe it leads to some development long term. There might be a collection of games we just drop because opposing shooters are hot and we simply can't keep pace.

This is also why I'm so frustrated at the free throw shooting. If we're going to play this way, the team can't leave points at the line. Especially Banchero.

I 100% agree with you. If we are going to hang our offensive hat on FTr, we need to shoot those puppies accurately.

[VFX]

Through 4 games, each opponent has basically ignored Fultz and Suggs. And are more than happy to allow 4 of the 5 starters to shoot any jump shot they like. Either the team proves they can hit those open shots to keep the defense honest, or it's simply not going to work. The lack of spacing continues to make offense hard on every player on the court (except Gary Harris). Not sure how much of a sample size Mosely wants before making a change. But I don't believe we're seeing any drastic improvement in shooting from any one to suggest this is going to get better.

I feel bad for Suggs, because I do think he's a good player and probably does deserve to start. But the Fultz-Suggs backcourt drastically shrinks the court.

Long term, I do believe Fultz will be odd man out once this is all said and done. Our ceiling is only so high with Fultz's limitations as a shooter. The front office knows this, which is why they didn't extend him.

This is why I don’t care about Suggs continuing to shoot despite the not great results. They need to keep defenses honest to avoid packing the paint on Paolo and Franz. He provides a crazy amount of value elsewhere defensively making up for being a premiere shooter.

Carter sees a lot of benefit at the rim in lob situations because of how teams have started to scheme Paolo defensively. That’s really been the only benefit in the starting lineup. Unfortunately, it’s not sustainable offense.

And like you said, if you can’t knock down those shots and want to live at the line for offense… you need to be as efficient as possible hitting free throws. Another thing Fultz doesn’t do

[Landshark]

This is pure speculation, but maybe Fultz's shoulder flared up because he's been shooting with normal form during practice? His midrange was off last night, and he airballed a free throw. That's the worst his shot has been in a while, without even considering the lack of three point attempts.

[NavalAviator94]

Paolo is missing wide open shots and free throws. Fultz being part of the spacing problem overall is true but it isn’t the reason he’s missing those nor is he the reason others are.

The question is - what do you do in the interim? What tweaks do you make to the rotation or lineup that may help this group?


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[MartinsIzAfraud]

This is pure speculation, but maybe Fultz's shoulder flared up because he's been shooting with normal form during practice? His midrange was off last night, and he airballed a free throw. That's the worst his shot has been in a while, without even considering the lack of three point attempts.

Fultz could shoot 2 balls in a row and I'd guarentee both shots look different and its very obvious he doesn't trust it