Is Jordan Poole the modern day World B. Free?

[Goudelock]

Both are shoot-first combo guards who like to create their own shot, have aesthetically-pleasing games, and aren't known for playing defense.

Both got their starts on veteran rosters and eventually contributed to finals teams (1977 Sixers and the 2022 Warriors). Both got shipped off to their era's version of hoops Siberia (late-70s San Diego and 2023 Wizards) where they get to do whatever they want.

I think this is a decent comparison, but what do you guys think?

[penbeast0]

Poole has the benefit of the modern focus on the 3 point shot (though he isn't hitting them at all this year) and more efficient offenses built around it. Free had a ridiculous foul draw rate for a guy whose game was built around long jump shots and was much more of a personality/street kid from what I remember. Poole reminds me more of the other specialist 2's around the league who shoot a lot of 3's and only provide other value occasionally like Anfernee Simons.

[Dr Positivity]

Probably insulting to World B until Poole shows he can actually put up big raw stats

[Goudelock]

Probably insulting to World B until Poole shows he can actually put up big raw stats

I"m working under the assumption that Poole will start hitting shots and score 25 PPG while the Wizards tank their way to 15 wins.

[AEnigma]

World B Free brought a degree of relevance to Cleveland when it was desperate for any. I would compare him more to Mitch Richmond on the Kings than I would to Poole.

The 1978-80 Clippers were 74-72 with him and 4-14 without him. The 1981-83 Warriors were 84-78 with him and 54-112 without him. And while the Cavaliers were a more painful 104-171 with him, they were an abysmal 12-41 without him. He mattered a lot to those teams. Not sure what Poole has done to suggest the same.

[kcktiny]

Free from 1976-77 to 1985-86, a full decade, scored the 7th most total points among all players. Only Gervin, Jabbar, Malone, Dantley, Erving, and English scored more - and of those 6 players Free had the 3rd highest per minute scoring rate. He was one of the best scorers in the league in an age of great scorers.

Free made his living at the FT line, and was a good offensive rebounder for an SG early in his career. What has Poole actually done to remind you of him? Both players' first 4 years in the league Free attempted close to twice as many FTAs per minute than has Poole, and Poole has been a very poor offensive rebounder.

[tsherkin]

World B Free was a 20.3 ppg on his career at 99 TS+. Nothing special on his career, but 79 and 80 were marked departures for him in terms of both volume and league-relative efficacy. Both of those were better than anything Poole has done to date. His draw rate has already been mentioned. He was a little below average as far as actually hitting shots, but he put it together for a short stretch.

By comparison, Poole's about 10 ppg behind Free at his peak. 3 straight seasons (if you include this active year) at 18+ ppg. 106, 99 and 86 TS+, tailing off notably after that outlier season in 2022. Much lower volume, so the weak efficiency (especially with the 3pt shot available) is more concerning.

[Goudelock]

World B Free was a 20.3 ppg on his career at 99 TS+. Nothing special on his career, but 79 and 80 were marked departures for him in terms of both volume and league-relative efficacy. Both of those were better than anything Poole has done to date. His draw rate has already been mentioned. He was a little below average as far as actually hitting shots, but he put it together for a short stretch.

By comparison, Poole's about 10 ppg behind Free at his peak. 3 straight seasons (if you include this active year) at 18+ ppg. 106, 99 and 86 TS+, tailing off notably after that outlier season in 2022. Much lower volume, so the weak efficiency (especially with the 3pt shot available) is more concerning.

You all bring up some interesting points, and I'd agree that WBF was the more talented scorer.

Was just curious is the circumstances of their career + both being entertaining scorers (of differing qualities) would make the comparison a good one.

[kcktiny]

Free with 46 points against the Lakers 10-12-1979:

Watch on YouTube

[Clyde Frazier]

Not a perfect comparison by any means (and poole is only averaging 17 PPG!) but '01 stackhouse came to mind as the season was starting. Pistons went 32-50 that year and he put up 29.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, a surprising 5.1 APG and took 5.9 3PAs per game (35.1%). Never would’ve guessed the APG/3PA from memory. His 52.1% TS actually gave him a +15 TS Add for the year. Man the early 2000s were rough for efficiency.

[tsherkin]

You all bring up some interesting points, and I'd agree that WBF was the more talented scorer.

Was just curious is the circumstances of their career + both being entertaining scorers (of differing qualities) would make the comparison a good one.

Poole, when he's on, is quite entertaining. To borrow from Top Gun, though, his ego writes cheques his body can't cash, you know what I mean?

Not a perfect comparison by any means (and poole is only averaging 17 PPG!) but '01 stackhouse came to mind as the season was starting. Pistons went 32-50 that year and he put up 29.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, a surprising 5.1 APG and took 5.9 3PAs per game (35.1%). Never would’ve guessed the APG/3PA from memory. His 52.1% TS actually gave him a +15 TS Add for the year. Man the early 2000s were rough for efficiency.

Stackhouse was actually +0.3% rTS that season over 80 games, so that makes some sense.

Yeah, the very late 90s and early 2000s were atrocious basketball. Not every team, but MAN. Ooof, brutal and ugly.

Stackhouse was not really "good" that year, but he was good enough to be a positive impact player for that dreadful Pistons team. Which, really, ouch.

[MrLurker]

I hope Poole does well. I am not a fan of how he was ascribed all the blame - or how his teammate completely escaped it.

[MiamiBulls]

Not a perfect comparison by any means (and poole is only averaging 17 PPG!) but '01 stackhouse came to mind as the season was starting. Pistons went 32-50 that year and he put up 29.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, a surprising 5.1 APG and took 5.9 3PAs per game (35.1%). Never would’ve guessed the APG/3PA from memory. His 52.1% TS actually gave him a +15 TS Add for the year. Man the early 2000s were rough for efficiency.

Stackhouse was a notable Offensive player in 2001, comparable to a random Prime Iverson year. 2001 Pistons w/o Stackhouse had the worst Offense in the NBA at -9 Ortg, w/Stackhouse Pistons had roughly the 17th Best Offense in the league.

Poole seems more like Terry Rozier 2.0 with a fluke 2022 Playoff Run. Streaky/Microwavable Offensive player with questionable decision making with ultimately circumscribed impact on the court due to an oversized role given on their particular rosters.

[Clyde Frazier]

Not a perfect comparison by any means (and poole is only averaging 17 PPG!) but '01 stackhouse came to mind as the season was starting. Pistons went 32-50 that year and he put up 29.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, a surprising 5.1 APG and took 5.9 3PAs per game (35.1%). Never would’ve guessed the APG/3PA from memory. His 52.1% TS actually gave him a +15 TS Add for the year. Man the early 2000s were rough for efficiency.

Stackhouse was a notable Offensive player in 2001, comparable to a random Prime Iverson year. 2001 Pistons w/o Stackhouse had the worst Offense in the NBA at -9 Ortg, w/Stackhouse Pistons had roughly the 17th Best Offense in the league.

Poole seems more like Terry Rozier 2.0 with a fluke 2022 Playoff Run. Streaky/Microwavable Offensive player with questionable decision making with ultimately circumscribed impact on the court due to an oversized role given on their particular rosters.

As I said I was thinking about it going into the season so I was mainly thinking high volume scorer, low efficiency on a bad team. Rozier is a good call. Stackhouse was "better" that year than I remembered when I looked back at it yesterday.

[tsherkin]

As I said I was thinking about it going into the season so I was mainly thinking high volume scorer, low efficiency on a bad team. Rozier is a good call. Stackhouse was "better" that year than I remembered when I looked back at it yesterday.

I see your point. I think the major deviation is that Stackhouse was slightly efficient relative to his league and Poole was similarly efficient in 2001, better on lower volume in 2022, was below average last year and has been trash so far in this very young season. Stackhouse was a +5.8 OBPM guy in 2001, and Poole topped out at +1.3 in 2022. Detroit was +6.6 in team ORTG with him on the court that year.

Just some food for thought to flesh out the difference. Now, if Stackhouse played exactly the same way and produced identical efficiency results in today's environment, we would see a very different level of impact, to be fair. As you said, the early 2000s were pretty rough for raw efficiency.

[trex_8063]

Probably insulting to World B until Poole shows he can actually put up big raw stats

World B Free brought a degree of relevance to Cleveland when it was desperate for any. I would compare him more to Mitch Richmond on the Kings than I would to Poole.

The 1978-80 Clippers were 74-72 with him and 4-14 without him. The 1981-83 Warriors were 84-78 with him and 54-112 without him. And while the Cavaliers were a more painful 104-171 with him, they were an abysmal 12-41 without him. He mattered a lot to those teams. Not sure what Poole has done to suggest the same.

Yeah, while I'll acknowledge some of the similarities described in OP, WBF just seems frankly better. He scored at a slightly higher rate in BIGGER mpg [even relative to era standards], and on slightly better shooting efficiency [relative to era]; and Poole turns the ball over a little more, too. Those things add up.

Stylistically, I'm not sure how similar they are either (WBF was very much a pull-up jump shooter, wasn't he?); though a lot of that may be a function of era.


I would say Poole is closer to "Super" John Williamson: score-first combo guard [not known for defense] who got his start on a title team (the New York Nets [ABA]), then went on to fill up the boxscore a little more for some crap teams (efficiency dipping somewhat). Never really lighting the world on fire, though. That's more consistent with Poole's overall quality, imo.

[trex_8063]

Free made his living at the FT line,

Man, you're right. I guess I never took notice of how high his foul-draw rate was.

Poole seems more like Terry Rozier 2.0 with a fluke 2022 Playoff Run. Streaky/Microwavable Offensive player with questionable decision making with ultimately circumscribed impact on the court due to an oversized role given on their particular rosters.

Rozier isn't a bad comparison, though Poole's turnover economy is sort of trash, relatively. Rozier will give you roughly 20 pts and 5 ast while commiting barely 2 turnovers [respectable]; Poole will turn it over ~3 times for every 20 pts and 5 ast.

[Dr Positivity]

The advanced stats era makes it hard for there to be as many 20 pts on a bad team chucker guys as we grew up with, I'm glad Jordan Poole is doing his thing.

[penbeast0]

The advanced stats era makes it hard for there to be as many 20 pts on a bad team chucker guys as we grew up with, I'm glad Jordan Poole is doing his thing.

I do wish he were doing it for someone else. I know we are supposed to embrace the tank, but unlike World B Free, he is not fun to watch.

[tsherkin]

The advanced stats era makes it hard for there to be as many 20 pts on a bad team chucker guys as we grew up with, I'm glad Jordan Poole is doing his thing.

I'm glad we have less of that. It makes for less frequency explaining to casual fans that their raw volume output doesnt mean they are actually any good, lol.