RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #41 (Artis Gilmore)

Post #1 » by **Doctor MJ** » Fri Nov 3, 2023 3:41 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Elgin Baylor

Anthony Davis

Artis Gilmore

Dwight Howard

Dolph Schayes

Post #2 » by **penbeast0** » Fri Nov 3, 2023 4:06 pm

Vote: Artis Gilmore: Not the personality type I want as my leader, would have been a much greater player if less passive, but an incredible physical talent who would score, defend the post, block shots, and even shoot FTs very well for a big.

Alt Vote: Anthony Davis Not sold on him as I just don't think he can be counted on year in and year out but can be a very good second option when healthy and not sold on anyone else yet.

Nominate: Draymond Green: Impact monster, great defense, enough offense with his playmaking and occasional 3 point shooting to be positive on that end though not a lot.

Alt nomination: Kevin McHale: Russell Westbrook is the best player left but it's just really hard to build a great team around him with his playstyle. Too ball dominant to be that inefficient in a league where we've seen how important spacing and efficiency are. Possibly in a previous era, I'd have voted him in already but no way to know how well he'd translate in a different situation. Want to submit Bobby Jones, but I do actually think McHale (and many others) did more. Considered Pierce, Lillard, and Schayes as well, feel free to talk me into changing my nomination.

Post #3 » by **trex_8063** » Fri Nov 3, 2023 5:47 pm

Well, nothing has changed for me. I personally feel we're now overdue on both of my picks, so sticking with them.

Induction Vote: Elgin Baylor

Piggy-backing on comments from post #28 of the #39 thread......

A partial case for Baylor follows:

Spoiler:

I'd place the career of either of these guys ahead of that of Rick Barry. Will try to post more to that sentiment later.
Suffice to say that I think we're getting on toward long overdue for having Baylor at least listed among the nominees. I don't think his career is behind Barry's, and I simply have a very hard time seeing it FAR behind.

Alt. Induction Vote: Artis Gilmore
Glad to see he got on the ballot finally. Me leaning toward longevity a bit more puts him in high contention here. I sort of view his career like Dwight Howard, but with better durability/longevity. Similarities include both being freakishly athletic big men who peaked kinda early; terrific finishers around the rim who were also defensive giants when their athleticism was still at its apex (though admittedly falling off quickly once injury took its toll on that athleticism: both had their affectiveness on that end drop dramatically before the age of 30). Both fantastic rebounders, limited passers.

Gilmore led a team to an ABA championship [as clear best player] in his 4th season. Dwight led his team [as clear best player] as far as the NBA Finals in his 5th season.

The major difference [for me], is Artis had better longevity.

Nomination: Clyde Drexler
Alt Nom: Paul Pierce

(fwiw, Pau Gasol is the other guy I'd really like to nominate, but he has no traction presently; so I'll go with Pierce instead)

AEnigma · Post #4 » by **AEnigma** » Fri Nov 3, 2023 5:54 pm

VOTE: Artis Gilmore
NOMINATE: Paul Pierce
Not passionate about either but those two close out my longevity tier alongside Stockton and Kidd. Judging by last thread’s results, no need for an alternate vote to Gilmore.

Draymond seems to have a mild edge among nominees, but unlike with Howard (who I think compares well enough to a player like Mourning that I am fine voting for him), I pause with Draymond by comparison with another option: Dave Cowens. Not strictly as a direct comparison — Draymond is a better defender and passer, and while Cowens can handle a higher scoring and playmaking load, he is not exactly good enough at either for that to be an ideal offensive result — but just in their respective statuses in their leagues within a certain archetype. I mark Cowens as a top five player on his own merits every year from 1973-76, and while I think Draymond flirted with that in his own prime, I see that as more of a situational playoff marker. Same number of games played, but Cowens shouldered a higher minutes load, and as I have repeatedly stressed that as an important advantage in all these comparisons.

Now, he is not necessarily my alternative nomination this round, because I also have in mind Mourning, McHale, and Lanier. I did want to bring him up though because his case as an era-defining player is much easier as an MVP winner and two-time title leader (shared with Havlicek in 1974). In his 1972-77 prime, the Celtics won over 70% (58-win pace) of games with him and only 50% when he was out, as part of a strong half decade in which the Celtics made at least the conference finals every year.

Those who read my posts toward the end of the Peaks Project have already seen me post this article, but for those who have not, this is one of my favourite accounts of him:

Cort Reynolds wrote: He may not have been named MVP of the NBA Finals in 1974 or 1976, but undersized Hall of Fame Boston center Dave Cowens was the key force in winning both clinching games of those memorable championship series for the Celtics.

In the 1970's no one played harder for Boston, or anyone else for that matter, with apologies to Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier and Dave DeBusschere, than the fiery 6-8.5 redhead.

In game seven of the epic 1974 NBA Finals, the Celtics faced the tall task of beating Milwaukee on the road. Buck center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was in his youthful prime and enjoyed nearly a six-inch height advantage - which was probably close to a foot when reach is included - over Cowens.

…

The Bucks had forced a seventh game by winning a double overtime classic in Boston just two days earlier, when Jabbar's long running baseline hook over Celtic backup center Hank Finkel gave Milwaukee a see-saw 102-101 victory.

Cowens had fouled out earlier in overtime, or the outcome may well have been different, with the Celtics likely celebrating title number 12 at home.

John Havlicek had traded baskets with the 7-2 Jabbar throughout the final extra session, scoring nine of his 36 points in the second OT, but Kareem got the last shot in.

Yet a hustling play by Cowens that came to epitomize his career happened late in that classic sixth contest. Dave switched off on a pick defensively to cover Robertson, then used his quick hands to poke the ball away from the Hall of Famer.

The speedy center then out-sprinted the 6-5 guard for the loose ball, which rolled into the backcourt. Cowens dove for the ball and slid with it near the sidelines while the loose leather bobbled in and out of his arms. Oscar trailed the play and never left his feet, almost in disbelief at the bigger man's reckless dive.

Cowens left a sweat streak about 10 feet long on the old Garden parquet, probably along with some skin. While the Bucks argued that he never had possession of the ball, the referees correctly ruled that the 24-second clock had nevertheless run out to give Boston the ball.

Not long after, Cowens fouled out with just 13 points on five of 19 shooting, and his absence contributed to the series-tying Buck win. Determined to redeem himself, the proud Celtic star came out firing in game seven.

Boston came up with a new strategy to aid Dave. The Boston braintrust decided to pressure the aging Robertson hard with defensive ace Don Chaney while he brought the ball upcourt.

And then once Milwaukee was into its halfcourt offense, coach Tom Heinsohn had Paul Silas, Havlicek and others also double down and help while Cowens fronted and battled Jabbar for position.

After he was told about the change in defensive strategy, Dave would relate years later in an interview that he felt like saying, "Yes! I am finally going to get some help on this guy."

After having the redhead go one-on-one for six games with the much bigger man who was the total focal point of their offense, Jabbar had averaged almost 34 points per game, so the Celtic brass felt it had to try something.

By not having to expend as much energy defending the 7-2 Jabbar alone, it seemed as if Cowens had been unchained and energized for the decisive contest.

On offense, the muscular Cowens used his superior speed and quickness to take the slower Jabbar out on the floor and drive by him, taking advantage of Kareem's relative lack of lateral quickness.

The high-leaping, aggressive Cowens won the opening jump over Jabbar and tapped it it to Havlicek, who fed a cutting Chaney perfectly for a layup that set an immediate, positive tone in the contest for the Celtics.

As time ran out in the first period, Dave bombed a 25-footer from the right side at the buzzer that went straight in to give Boston a 22-20 lead.

The Celtics lengthened the lead late in the half as their defense stymied Jabbar and Robertson. Dave triggered the vaunted Celtic fast break with a defensive rebound and airborne outlet pass that led to a 16-footer by Don Nelson.

Shortly afterward, Cowens nailed consecutive foul line jumpers that gave the visitors a 53-40 intermission edge. Their defensive strategy, cooked up between games six and seven by Celtic patriarch Red Auerbach, Heinsohn and the legendary Bob Cousy, was working almost to perfection.

Robertson, who had played for Cousy in Cincinnati before their falling out led to the Big O's trade to Milwaukee, was hounded into perhaps the worst playoff game of his career at a very inopportune time.

If nothing else, the all-court pressure put on by the quicker Celtics rushed the Bucks and took vital seconds off the shot clock, forcing hurried decisions and field goal tries. With veteran leader and playmaker Robertson flustered, the Buck offense floundered.

As a result, scoring machine Jabbar was amazingly held without a single point in the entire second stanza and for half of the third period. This was a major drought when one realizes that Kareem came into game seven averaging his number per outing in the 1974 playoffs (33).

…

At the other end, Boston closed the door with a clever bit of body control and quick reactions. Cowens missed a half hook in the lane that richocheted off Jabbar's hands to a nearly-prone Westphal, who was just getting up off the hardwood after being floored while setting a screen.

Paul then hung in the air as he looked to shoot a short jumper over the looming 7-2 Buck center. But at the last second, he double-clutched and instead tossed a beautifully improvised short alley-oop pass to Cowens past Jabbar. Dave caught the ball in the air on the right side of the lane and cleverly kissed it in off glass before Kareem could recover. That was the final nail in the Milwaukee coffin.

…

Havlicek, who enjoyed a great series, was named Finals MVP even though he tallied a modest 16 points on six of 20 shooting in the decisive contest.

His second fourth quarter three-point play on a foul line jumper as he was hit in the stomach capped a decisive 11-0 spurt that put the game well out of reach, 98-79.

But the game seven MVP was definitely Big Red. The final box score showed Cowens with game-high totals of 28 points and 14 rebounds, compared to 26 and 13 for Jabbar.

Yet the considerable numbers did not show his great intangible contribution, as well. Or how much energy the fiery redhead had supplied his team. Nor how his defense had helped Kareem wear down and fade. He sank just six of 11 free throws in the game and went scoreless for over a third of the game in the crucial middle section when Boston took command.

Or how Cowens had ignited the deadly Celtic transition game with his defensive rebounding and quick outlet bullets, often firing his passes in midair while coming down with the carom.

…

Due in large part to the scrambling defensive strategy of Boston, Jabbar only took 21 shots in the decisive seventh contest, six below his series average for attempts to that point.

He also converted only 10 field goals after making 14.5 baskets per contest over the first six games - well below his 54 percent shooting accuracy to that point in the title series.

…

The grueling style of play that the speedy 1970's Celtics employed, in concert with a short bench and going deep into the playoffs each year (and thus having shorter off-seasons), had started to take a toll on the club. Plus, team captain Havlicek and sixth man Don Nelson were each 36.

In 1976, a grizzled Boston squad fought its way to the Finals despite a foot injury to Havlicek. It was the 13th Celtic championship series appearance in 20 years, and the last before the Larry Bird era.

…

It was Cowens who took over and scored seven points in a clutch 9-4 Celtic spurt that clinched the crown.

Despite being plagued with five fouls, the redhead gambled and came up with the biggest play of the game. As Adams drove along the right side of the lane, Dave dangerously reached in and poked the ball away from the Rookie of the Year, lunging to tip the loose sphere away from Adams.

He then snatched up the loose ball and dribbled, or more accurately roared, 80 feet upcourt at top speed on a 2 on 1 fast break, a runaway red-headed center locomotive.

As he approached the basket, the Celtic center crossed over to the right side and gave a slight head fake to freeze defender Heard. Dave then laid in a twisting backhanded layup over his shoulder while being fouled. He cashed in the free throw to give Boston a 71-67 lead and a huge momentum swing.

After a Phoenix score, Dave sealed Adams outside the low block and took a perfectly timed top-side feed from Charlie Scott before converting a right-handed layin for a 73-69 advantage.

Cowens then forced a bad miss by Adams by hotly contesting his 15-footer. Adams later canned two foul shots to cut the lead back to two. Yet Havlicek swished a clutch 18-footer from the left wing to make it 75-71.

After a Westphal miss, Dave took an entry pass and spun quickly along the right baseline with his trademark move past Adams for a pretty layup. The pet move gave Boston a little breathing room with a 77-71 margin at the 3:29 mark.

White banked in a tough right side runner and added a free throw to stretch the lead to nine, and it was all over but the shouting as Boston ultimately held on to win, 87-80.

After the final buzzer sounded, a tired Cowens hugged retiring teammate Nelson as they strode off the court as champions for the last time. For Nellie, it was a satisfying fifth ring after being released by the Lakers over a decade earlier.

With White struggling and Hondo hurt, it was clearly the clutch late offensive burst from Cowens that capped banner number 13. His aggressive, all-out defense also led to a drought of over five minutes without a basket for the Suns down the stretch.

Even though Dave scored 21 points in the decisive win, paced the defense and led all players in rebounds during the series while averaging 20.5 ppg, teammate JoJo White (21.7 ppg) was named Finals MVP.

Yet in true Cowens fashion, Dave probably didn't care that much, as long as Boston won. He was simply about winning, an undersized center who won on great athleticism (strength, speed, quickness and jumping ability), high basketball intelligence, skill, and a burning desire as bright as his red mane.

"There is no player with greater desire than Dave Cowens," said CBS commentator and fiery Hall of Famer Rick Barry during the 1976 Finals.

A powerful leaper, Cowens frequently won jump balls against much taller centers like Jabbar and an older Chamberlain, and used great positioning to frustrate Kareem and occasionally block his shots as well by forcing him to turn back to his right shoulder, away from his patented hook.

Back then a center jump ball was held at the start of each quarter, and if that rule seems antiquated, consider that the original rules up through the 1930's required that there be a center jump after every basket. So each quarter jump ball could be a key extra possession gained.

As Havlicek, who played the first seven seasons of his career with the great Bill Russell and then his final eight with Cowens, the 1970-71 co-Rookie of the Year, once said - "no one ever did more for the Celtics than Dave Cowens."

In the post-game six locker room TV interviews with CBS, Havlicek reinforced this claim. "We were able to keep Dave on the floor (not foul out), and that made the difference," said Hondo.

Unfortunately, Dave's all-out style and annual deep playoff runs eventually contributed to his body breaking down by the time he reached his early 30's.

…

Heinsohn, who after the death of Red Auerbach assumed the mantel of Mr. Celtic after 50-plus years as star player, championship coach and team announcer, called his 1970's Boston teams "the quickest of all Celtic clubs."

As such he designed a revolutionary point center/forward type of up-tempo offense to take advantage of the extraordinary blend of skills, athleticism and desire of his speedy red-headed center and Havlicek, as well as the sharpshooting White.

Those Celtics did not have a true point guard. White, Chaney and Havlicek shared the ballhandling duties, while Cowens often directed the offense from the top of the key with his passing, driving and shooting ability.

Ambrose · Post #5 » by **Ambrose** » Fri Nov 3, 2023 8:00 pm

Vote: Dwight Howard, one of the ten best defensive bigs ever, who hovered around top 3 player for a number of years. Only AD feels like a similar peak, and his durability issues kill his argument for me. Dwight did have a lot of empty cal years but we also saw how he turned things around with legitimate leadership there at the end.

Alternate: Artis Gilmore, toss up between he and Dwight, but I like Dwight better defensively and peak wise.

Nominate: Clyde Drexler, surprised he's not here yet.

trelos6 · Post #6 » by **trelos6** » Fri Nov 3, 2023 8:39 pm

Vote: Dwight Howard

One of the best defensive players of all time. His peak was arguably a top 3 player in the league. Offensively,he was limited, but what he did was effective. Great catch radius. Some monster dunks. 20.7 pp75 on +8.7% rTS. In the playoffs, he was still 23.2 pp75 on +10.7% for his 3 year peak. He was a monster down low.

I have him with 3 weak MVP seasons, 8 All NBA, 9 All Star, and 12 All D.

Alternate vote: Artis Gilmore

I’ve revised up a few of his NBA seasons to that All-NBA level. It gets him a hair under Dwight overall.

Nomination: Joel Embiid

Alt. Nom: Russell Westbrook

It comes down to Westbrook v Embiid. Guys like Pierce, McHale, Payton, Isiah, didn’t reach the heights of Westbrook or Embiid. One was a high octane play creator, the other a fantastic defensive presence. Both were force of will scorers. I think I’ll give the nod to Jojo. Although I can appreciate the Westbrook argument.

Samurai · Post #7 » by **Samurai** » Sat Nov 4, 2023 8:38 pm

Vote for #41: Artis Gilmore. Gotta admit that when I watched him play, I was never a big Gilmore fan. And I admit that in his later years, he was largely immobile and deserved his moniker of Rigor Artis. But in his prime, he was a very good center. In his prime, he had a decent array of moves in the low post to get his (very) high percentage shots off, whereas in his later years he was largely limited to putbacks and dunks. He was a solid defender (four time All ABA Defensive First Team and once on the All NBA Defensive Second Team), a very strong rebounder and excellent screen setter. To my eyes, he was the strongest player in the game during the post-Wilt and pre-Shaq years. He won a ring in 75, was the Playoffs MVP that year, league MVP in 72, and made 11 All Star games in his 18-year career.

Alternate vote: Elgin Baylor. Baylor was more highly regarded in his day than he is now. Back then when more advanced stats were unheard of and points were king, he was considered one of the very best in the game since he was a great volume scorer. Now we can look at his stats and realize he was not a particularly efficient shooter and in hindsight it would have made more sense to have West be the primary alpha on offense rather than splitting that role with Baylor. But we're getting to the point in looking at the others not yet nominated that Baylor deserves a mention. He was a ten-time All NBA First Team member, finished in the top 5 in points/game 8 times, and an excellent rebounder with 8 top ten finishes in rebounds/game. And while not known as much for his playmaking as his scoring, he still had 6 top ten finishes in assists/game. In the days before Dr J and long before MJ, Baylor was a pioneer in combining strength with grace, hops and that seemingly impossible trait of "hanging in the air" longer than what many deemed possible. I only saw Baylor play live after injuries took away much of his earlier athleticism, so the "magic" of Baylor was more what my dad would tell me about how incredible he was in his younger days. When my dad saw Dr J, and later Jordan, he felt he was seeing a younger Baylor reincarnated.

Nomination: Russell Westbrook. Not a fan and I wouldn't necessarily want him on my team if I were picking from scratch. But I'm having trouble continuing to not nominate him based on my personal playstyle preferences. MVP in 2017 and 9-time All NBA Team member (2 first team, 5 second team and 2 third team selections). Led the league twice in points/game and three times in assists/game. I don't highly value his triple doubles since I tend to think he was a stat padder, particularly his rebounding, but he was still a very good defensive rebounder for a guard.

Alternate nomination: George Gervin. Outstanding scorer who led the league in scoring 4 times (only Jordan, Wilt and KD have more scoring titles and tied with Kobe and Harden). Named All NBA/ABA nine times (5 of them to the First Team), played in 12 straight All Star games, and scored double figures in 407 consecutive games. Not a very good defender although he was a very good defensive rebounder and shot blocker for a guard. And the eye test tells me that he had the best floating finger roll off a drive that I've ever seen (Wilt's was off a post-up, not a drive!).

Post #8 » by **trex_8063** » Sat Nov 4, 2023 9:10 pm

AEnigma wrote:VOTE: Artis Gilmore
NOMINATE: Paul Pierce
Not passionate about either but those two close out my longevity tier alongside Stockton and Kidd. Judging by last thread’s results, no need for an alternate vote to Gilmore.

Given the lack of passion in your picks, who would be your top two picks if not limited by the eligible candidates?

iggymcfrack · Post #9 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sat Nov 4, 2023 9:26 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Russell Westbrook is the best player left but it's just really hard to build a great team around him with his playstyle. Too ball dominant to be that inefficient in a league where we've seen how important spacing and efficiency are. Possibly in a previous era, I'd have voted him in already but no way to know how well he'd translate in a different situation. Want to submit Bobby Jones, but I do actually think McHale (and many others) did more. Considered Pierce, Lillard, and Schayes as well, feel free to talk me into changing my nomination.

I get the concerns about Westbrook being more of a floor raiser than ceiling raiser offensively, but I think they’re overblown. The Thunder had the best offense in the league in 2013 with Westbrook as the primary playmaker and leading shot taker and then in 2016 they had the 2nd best offense in the league with Westbrook as the clear best offensive player ahead of Durant. I think that at least in his prime years, a lot of what he gives away in terms of poor shot selection was made up for with the easy looks he got teammates through his aggressive passing and relentless fastbreaking. In 2016 specifically the Thunder‘s offense was 11.7 points better with him on the floor.

homecourtloss · Post #10 » by **homecourtloss** » Sat Nov 4, 2023 10:58 pm

VOTE: Artis Gilmore
Alternate: Dwight Howard
NOMINATE: Draymond Green
AltNom: Paul Pierce

I honestly might prefer Lanier to Gilmore in many ways, but out of the candidates here I prefer the A-Train. He’s one of the few players in NBA history who possesses extreme strength, while also having a monster wingspan, which he leveraged into drawing contact and drawing fouls, and then shooting free throws throws reliably well. This was pretty much threw all throughout his career. Many people probably remember his offensive game is mostly dunks and layups, but he also had a nice up and under move, a drop step move, a good hook shot. On top of all this, it was a good office of rebounder. Defensively, I had a pretty good basketball IQ, and could be a good help defender along with being a shot locker, and a rim protector. I would be really interested in his entire impact profile given that he had so many strengths, though it seem someone like Dwight Howard or Bob Lanier have stronger impact profiles.

AEnigma · Post #11 » by **AEnigma** » Sun Nov 5, 2023 12:13 am

trex_8063 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:VOTE: Artis Gilmore
NOMINATE: Paul Pierce
Not passionate about either but those two close out my longevity tier alongside Stockton and Kidd. Judging by last thread’s results, no need for an alternate vote to Gilmore.

Given the lack of passion in your picks, who would be your top two picks if not limited by the eligible candidates?

Those are the two. My lack of passion is because I do not find them particularly interesting or their peaks particularly compelling (Gilmore of course at something of a higher level as a peak). Again, they close out my longevity tier, but I find a lot of the flawed shorter career candidates below them — specifically Lanier, Cowens, and Mourning — more interesting.

iggymcfrack · Post #12 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Nov 5, 2023 12:21 am

Vote: Anthony Davis
What he's done in the playoffs has been incredible. Career stats of 25.9/11.4/2.7/1.3/2.2 on .618 TS%. Has played in 55 of a possible 56 games. An on/off of +11.1. And his best playoffs statistically was the title run in 2020 as he averaged 28 PPG on an incredible .665 TS% that year while leading the playoffs in WS/48. The Lakers were +11.7 with him on the floor and -5.7 with him on the bench. He deserves way more credit than he gets.

Nominate: Russell Westbrook
Was much closer to Kevin Durant his prime OKC years than people realize. His playmaking did more to lift the offense than Durant's efficiency a lot of years. Yeah, he declined quickly once his athleticism faded, but from 2011-2018, he was a legit superstar at a level none of the other remaining players reached.

Post #13 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sun Nov 5, 2023 1:35 am

Ambrose wrote:Vote: Dwight Howard, one of the ten best defensive bigs ever, who hovered around top 3 player for a number of years. Only AD feels like a similar peak, and his durability issues kill his argument for me. Dwight did have a lot of empty cal years but we also saw how he turned things around with legitimate leadership there at the end.

So, I think you should be considering how short Howard's prime actually was when looking to possibly favor him over AD based on durability.

Howard graduated high school 7 years before Davis.
We are currently in season '23-24, so when considering equal aging, you'd be considering the year '16-17.

So, if by some chance Davis having his 3 most injury plagued seasons these past 3 years is really making you doubt Davis generally, just keep in mind that you're effectively doing the same thing as favoring Howard because of his post-Magic years, during which he was associated with failure after failure getting kicked overboard by team after team...in comparison to time when Davis continues to look like a Top 5 player when he's healthy.

Re: he turned things around at the end. I have to assume you're referring primarily to his later Laker years when he was a bench guy playing less than 20 MPG achieving team success by virtue of being on Davis' team, and still not getting kept from year to year by teams that one would expect to keep him if they were really satisfied with what they are getting.

Honestly, my own take is that Howard should be getting dinged drastically harder for his lack of achievement in longevity than Davis, but I feel like the "street clothes" knock on Davis is managing to get him dinged harder.

I also think Davis was a considerably more effective player peak vs peak, but can agree that it's debatable.
(Of course, I also think Gilmore has a strong case over either, which is why I've been voting Gilmore over Davis. I'm re-examining that, but I have Howard quite a bit lower than either.)

iggymcfrack · Post #14 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Nov 5, 2023 3:07 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
Ambrose wrote:Vote: Dwight Howard, one of the ten best defensive bigs ever, who hovered around top 3 player for a number of years. Only AD feels like a similar peak, and his durability issues kill his argument for me. Dwight did have a lot of empty cal years but we also saw how he turned things around with legitimate leadership there at the end.

So, I think you should be considering how short Howard's prime actually was when looking to possibly favor him over AD based on durability.

Howard graduated high school 7 years before Davis.
We are currently in season '23-24, so when considering equal aging, you'd be considering the year '16-17.

So, if by some chance Davis having his 3 most injury plagued seasons these past 3 years is really making you doubt Davis generally, just keep in mind that you're effectively doing the same thing as favoring Howard because of his post-Magic years, during which he was associated with failure after failure getting kicked overboard by team after team...in comparison to time when Davis continues to look like a Top 5 player when he's healthy.

Re: he turned things around at the end. I have to assume you're referring primarily to his later Laker years when he was a bench guy playing less than 20 MPG achieving team success by virtue of being on Davis' team, and still not getting kept from year to year by teams that one would expect to keep him if they were really satisfied with what they are getting.

Honestly, my own take is that Howard should be getting dinged drastically harder for his lack of achievement in longevity than Davis, but I feel like the "street clothes" knock on Davis is managing to get him dinged harder.

I also think Davis was a considerably more effective player peak vs peak, but can agree that it's debatable.
(Of course, I also think Gilmore has a strong case over either, which is why I've been voting Gilmore over Davis. I'm re-examining that, but I have Howard quite a bit lower than either.)

Davis has 46.5 VORP in 23,000 RS minutes and 4.6 VORP in 2000 postseason minutes.

Howard has 39.0 VORP in 39,000 RS minutes and 4.8 VORP in 4000 postseason minutes.

If that doesn’t say it all, I don’t know what does.

Post #15 » by **Doctor MJ** » Sun Nov 5, 2023 4:51 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:Davis has 46.5 VORP in 23,000 RS minutes and 4.6 VORP in 2000 postseason minutes.

Howard has 39.0 VORP in 39,000 RS minutes and 4.8 VORP in 4000 postseason minutes.

If that doesn’t say it all, I don’t know what does.

I think those are good numbers, but let me add a bit more context to this.

I alluded to my objection to referring to Howard's post-Magic years as "empty calorie" without explicitly saying as much. To me "empty calories" is a good way to refer to someone who is putting up big stats without it leading to great impact for a serious contender.

Howard's post-Orlando career isn't that. When he joined the Lakers, it was MORE hyped than when AD joined the Lakers. The failure of the Lakers with Howard wasn't just an epic disappointment, it was the Lakers' last real chance to get something out of the Kobe-Gasol core.

Had it just been the Lakers that went through that it would be one thing, but the reality is that for several years even after that teams were acquiring Howard with the expectation that he'd change their fortunes, and he didn't just fail, they all WANTED him gone by the end, and "the end" wasn't that long after the start.

This then to say, I think you have to seriously consider whether Howard's post-Orlando career should be seen as something with negative value. And if we just focus on Howard's Orlando minutes:

Orlando 22,000 RS minutes, 2000 PS minutes

You see he doesn't really have an advantage over Davis here. So truly, a vote for Howard based on longevity is a vote for him based on his Laker/Rocket/Hawk/Hornet/Wizard/76er career, which to me just doesn't make sense.

If I zoom in on the post-season +/- data - just because I think it's so stark everyone should reflect on what it means:

Howard On: -1.0, On/Off -4.5
Davis On: +4.8, On/Off +11.1

And if we just look at the best of Howard (Orlando) and we exclude the best of AD (Lakers), this is what it looks like:

Howard On: +1.7, On/Off -6.1
Davis On: -1.6, On/Off +7.5

Also, it's been brought up that Gortat's presence hurts Howard's On/Off, and that's true, but:

1. We're just talking about Gortat here. Good player, but never an all-star. It's weird that he'd have THAT much of an effect on a guy with Howard's stature.

2. According to Cheema's playoff RAPM, Howard scored a 0.242. I'm using Cheema's Tableau graph here so it's got a limited number of guys, but suffice to say that there's no one shown with a lower RAPM that's getting consideration in this project to this point. (There are two guys listed lower than Howard who made the previous Top 100 - Carmelo Anthony & Chris Bosh. ftr I don't have Melo in my Top 100, but I do have Howard & Bosh on my list. Bosh is helped by the fact that when he joined a superteam, he was actually a valuable core piece, which both Melo & Howard tried and failed at.)

Think I'll end by saying I'm sorry to go negative here. It's fun to champion a guy who deserves to be higher than most think. Less fun to be "the hater". Feel free to see me as emotionally biased here. I'm coming from the perspective of someone who was once high on Howard and hand-waved away his iffy +/- data, and felt like I got burned by him repeatedly.

Post #16 » by **Clyde Frazier** » Mon Nov 6, 2023 5:31 am

Vote 1 - Artis Gilmore
Vote 2 - Dolph Schayes
Nomination 1 - Clyde Drexler
Nomination 2 - George Gervin

Gilmore
Here are some things that impressed me in Gilmore's 17 year career:

He used his size very well to create space, but it was more about agility than just sheer power. Far more athletic than you'd expect from someone his size as a finisher. He could go up in one fluid motion, absorb contact, and finish off balance without being right at the rim. As a rookie in the ABA, he took the league by storm, winning MVP and leading Kentucky to a league best 68-16 record. They finished 44-40 in the prior season. In his '75 championship run, he put up the following:

24.1 PPG, 17.6 RPG, 2.5 APG, 1 SPG, 2.1 BPG, 53.9% FG, 77.2% FT, 60.2% TS, 114 ORtg

He also had a monster 28 points and 31 boards in the title clincher. Even if we adjust for pace and a marginally lower overall talent level in the ABA, he still comes out looking rather impressive. And at the end of the day, I value his contribution to that championship highly regardless of any variables you want throw in there. Per David Friedman of 20 Second Timeout:

ABA Commissioner Dave DeBusschere challenged the NBA champion Golden State Warriors to play a three game series against Kentucky but, not surprisingly, the established league declined, realizing that it had nothing to gain and potentially a lot to lose in staging such a matchup.

Gilmore's post-ABA longevity from '77-'86 (age 27-36):

19 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 2.1 APG, .6 SPG, 2.1 BPG, 60% FG, 72% FT, 64.6% TS, 118 ORtg

That's 10 seasons of consistent production well into his 30s. While he may get knocked for being a passive scorer as his career went on, I appreciate his ability to still be an effective second option with a volume scorer like Gervin. He didn't have as much playoff success in the NBA as he did in the ABA, but also faced tough competition along the way. In '77, '81, and '83, his teams would lose to the eventual NBA champs.

Schayes
What stands out most with Schayes was his ability to get to the line and hit at an elite %: his career FT rate is .512, with a career high .654 in '51 (league avg was .399 that yr). His career FT% was 84.9% on 7.9 attempts per game. The league avg typically hovered around 70-73% throughout his career.

From the footage I've seen, he had a consistent outside shot and good first step, with solid body control once he got into the lane. He also had a floater, which I find funny for some reason, but it was still effective. The Nationals were also one of the best defensive teams in the league during his prime (yes, only 8-10 teams, but routinely ranked in the top 1-3 in DRtg).

Again, his marked consistency and longevity relative to his era really impressed me. In '55, he led the Nationals to the NBA title in 7 games over the #1 SRS ranked Pistons. One can point to inferior competition, but I think a player who was considered one of the best in the game for as long as he was deserves a spot in the top 50.

Schayes retired having played the most seasons, games and minutes in league history (this includes NBL play). Some more insight on his playing style from a SLAM Magazine interview:

SLAM: You were a big man who played like a guard. How did you develop those skills?

SCHAYES: By playing in the New York City schoolyards, where the game was all about movement. I happened to be tall, but I learned the fundamentals well—the give and go, setting picks, passing, fast breaks and everything else we called “New York style.” I was a center in college but I was a high-post guy, feeding cutters and rebounding.

SLAM: Your range went out to 30 feet. How many more points would you have averaged with a three-point line?

SCHAYES: Quite a few, but I didn’t score out there as much as people think. My game was slashing to the basket, getting fouled and making three-point plays. But I hit enough deep shots to keep them honest and make them come out. The real secret to my success was I could shoot with either hand.

Post #17 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Nov 6, 2023 6:24 am

Induction Vote 1: Artis Gilmore

Repeated vote:

Spoiler:

Induction Vote 2: Anthony Davis

Strongly considered moving AD above Artis, but didn't quite pull the trigger.

You could definitely say I'm going by longevity here, given that Artis had great longevity and I really respect how efficiently he played once he was moved on from volume scoring capacity.

I also really thing that his ABA years should be seen as MVP-level by and large, giving him a peak that has a good case over Davis.

Now though, I am more impressed by Davis at his best, and he's been able to keep up with these flashes for longer now than I think Artis did. On that basis, he absolutely has a case here.

Nomination Vote 1: Draymond Green

Nomination Vote 2: Kevin McHale

Repeated votes:

Spoiler:

OldSchoolNoBull · Post #18 » by **OldSchoolNoBull** » Mon Nov 6, 2023 7:37 am

Induction Vote 1: Artis Gilmore

As others have said, the combination of two-way play, efficiency, and longevity combined with his ABA peak makes him a reasonable choice at this point.

I still am skeptical about Gilmore's actual impact in the NBA - he raised the Bulls' floor decently from 24 to 44 wins, -2.89 SRS to 0.92 SRS, but lost in the first round, and I don't know that he raised the Spurs' ceiling at all, considering they lost in the WCF to the Lakers without him in 1982 and did the same with him in 1983.

But I am having trouble making arguments for the others: Baylor's offensive efficiency holds him back; Dwight's playoff on/off holds him back; Davis's relatively short playoff history(he's only played 55 playoff games over 5 runs in his eleven seasons up through 22-23), inconsistency(in the 2023 playoffs, he'd look like a world-beater one game and mediocre the next), and injury proneness give me pause; and I honestly haven't thought about Schayes enough to vote for him here.

I find it unnecessary to commit to a second induction vote this round - Gilmore has this locked up by a wide margin.

Nomination Vote 1: Draymond Green

Draymond and Drexler are tied at the moment, and at a surface glance, it's not easy to imagine Drexler being as impactful as Draymond's been. That probably deserves a deeper look, and it's not really fair because we don't have full career RAPM or on/off for Drexler, but it's late, so this is my vote.

Nomination Vote 2: Clyde Drexler

Good longevity, multiple contexts(two finals with Portland as #1, title in Houston as #2), and his limited impact data looks good(3.77 and 3.27 RAPM his last two years, pretty balanced between O-RAPM and D-RAPM, +6.9 and +6.8 RS, and +13.1 and +20.9 on/off).

HeartBreakKid · Post #19 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Nov 6, 2023 8:48 am

Vote is for Anthony Davis - Anthony Davis has an amazing combination of efficiency and defense. It took a few years for his defense to catch up to his scoring but it is still quite monstrous and one of the best of his generation. He is a rather diverse player for someone who is primarily an off ball guy. He can pull up from far away, play off the catch, pick and pop, or finish at the rim at an incredible rate. His career is disjointed with injuries as well as an unfortunate sit out situation due to wanting to leave NO. I think he is simply a higher level players than most of the guys left.

My alternate vote is for Elgin Baylor – I used to be incredibly harsh on Baylor. Perhaps because his reputation had him as arguably the best in the world for a long time, and when I saw how inefficient he was relative to the big 4 of his era I said "pffft". I'd say in the past 1.5 years he has went up on my ratings quite a bit. He has a lot more playoff heroic performances than he is given credit for. He was a serious volume scorer on a scale that possibly the other great players left can't match.

My nomination is for Willis Reed - Arguably just as good as Frazier albeit his career feels even shorter.

My alternate nomination is for Kevin McHale – A lot of what I said with Davis applies to McHale. Great combination of hyper efficient scoring and good defense. His defense has less data to back up and he doesn’t seem like he is a true anchor, so that is why I haven’t vote for him earlier. His scoring is quite legendary, but he suffers from a similar situation as Manu in that he didn’t really have his own team for most of his career, and maybe the one season where he did his efficiency was still insane but his volume wasn’t much better. I don’t believe he was a blackhole, just he was so good at scoring there wasn’t much reason to pass, but lack of playmaking comparably does make him seem one dimensional albeit his game has a lot of nuance to it.

70sFan · Post #20 » by **70sFan** » Mon Nov 6, 2023 8:51 am

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:I still am skeptical about Gilmore's actual impact in the NBA - he raised the Bulls' floor decently from 24 to 44 wins, -2.89 SRS to 0.92 SRS, but lost in the first round, and I don't know that he raised the Spurs' ceiling at all, considering they lost in the WCF to the Lakers without him in 1982 and did the same with him in 1983.

I understand the scepticism, but keep in mind that:

1. The Bulls lost in the first round in 1977, but they faced the best team in the league and it's not like they got crushed.

2. About Spurs situation, it's worth mentioning two things:

- Gilmore was in his 12th season when he joined the Spurs and he was 33. It wasn't the case of prime player joining a good team and failing to reach the title. If we want to compare that to Dwight or even Ewing, I don't think it looks favorably to them at all.
- it's true that the Spurs lost in WCF both years, but it wouldn't be fair to say they played at similar level. In 1982, the Spurs lost 0-4 against the Lakers with the average margin of 8.7 ppg. In comparison, in 1983 the Spurs lost in 6 games and they lost the series only by 3.3 ppg and they lost game 6 by one point - almost forcing game 7. Gilmore averaged 20/14/2 with 3 bpg even with the first game when he was in foul trouble. Without game 1, he averaged 22/15/2 with 2.5 bpg and staggering efficiency (64 TS%).