Cade Cunningham - Any Concerns?

[Yallbecrazy]

Dumbass thread

33 8 8

And had so many in and out shots.

Shooting 11-27.

Dude is a chucker and turnover machine.

Hardly proving this thread wrong

Watch game not boxscore.

You literally started with his boxscore.

[Roger Murdock]

Yeah and who can hit a shot on that team? Therein lies the problem. You have Killian Hayes, Ausar Thompson, Marvin Bagley and Isiah Stewart in that clip, just put two and two together.
When he has trust that his teammates can hit shots, that's should change.

Dude… he’s getting pressured 30 feet from the basket because he struggles getting by his man, so it causes a horrible shooter to screen for him 4 feet behind the 3 line just to get him space.

He's 12th in the league in points off of drives. And as JJ Redick said on his podcast, watch a Celtics game with Tatum driving to the hoop and then flip to Detroit and see what Cade faces when he turns the corner lol

And to the "Cade decided to dribble into players instead of passing to 3 open shooters" comment. Notably, those "shooters" in the photo that are open are Marvin Bagley (29%), Killian (28%), and Ausar (17%), which is kind of the whole point. Obviously should still pass out instead of driving too deep into a crowd, but if teams can defend the only capable offensive player like that and give up a ~25% shot every time, that's an unworkable offense, and easy to take Cade out of the game.

On this exact play he was WIDE OPEN at the point arc, you can’t blame spacing when your teammates get someone who’s supposed to be a good shooter the widest open look you’ll get all game

[Mr Peanut]

Dumbass thread

33 8 8

And had so many in and out shots.

Pros:

33 points on 27 shots on 52% TS, better than his season average 51.1%

Cons:

40.7% field goal in a good game

5 turnovers, lower than his season average

One of his best games in a while is actually a pretty mediocre game. (Lost game with one of the worst last second play possible driving into Lopez)

I mean to be fair the only reason we were in it until the last possession was because of his play.

27 is a lot of shots but when you take into account all of the players we have injured at the moment and we're giving rotation minutes to guys like Stanley Umude and Jared Rhoden (who I'm guessing no one except Pistons fans have ever heard of) then you can understand why he has to shoulder the offensive load.

[Mr Peanut]

For the season he is now averaging 24.0/3.7/7.1 on 42/33/86 splits. Not amazing sure, but also not worthy of some of the vitriol in this thread.

[JackTalkThai]

Players with 200+ points and 50+ assists this season:

Nikola Jokic (605 career games)
Luka Doncic (338 career games)
Cade Cunningham (85 career games)

[zero rings]

Players with 200+ points and 50+ assists this season:

Nikola Jokic (605 career games)
Luka Doncic (338 career games)
Cade Cunningham (85 career games)

TS%: 51.3
TOV: 5.4 per game
On-Off: -8.3

Nobody is fooled by these empty counting stats. He has been terrible.

[cgf]

It's hard for me to say Cade has unfavorable circumstances when he has the luxury of playing with MJ Burks, but I digress...

No of course he hasn't been in an ideal situation but you can say that about a lot of players drafted high, in fact it's a natural phenomenon since most of those teams are - to put it simply - bad (bad enough to get a top pick).

If you assess that Cade is asked to do too much, aren't you basically asking to give him a lesser role (the point I've been making)? I assume we still land on different places in terms of the best role we'd envision for him.

I'm afraid Cade only has one gear. Brunson's a dynamic guard who can switch gears at any moment. I don't know that Cade has in him the ability to play fast. At least I didn't notice it the few times I watched him play. I don't think his style of play as a decision-maker is conducive to an dynamic or efficient offense. I think he makes it predictable.

Cade and RJ do share some of the same issues. Their profiles are a bit different, but there are some similarities.

That's what I mean. Last season Cade was hurt the whole time, this season it's the other way around. Once Cade gets to share the court with a superstar like Burks, then we can start to judge him...


Eh, you're talking about his future role, I'm talking about what he's ready for right now. Those aren't the same thing...although nobody's going to have much fun trying to create offense when surround by those Ausar, Duren, Stew & Hayes; regardless of how much I like the first two. So even in the future he'll need somebody who defenses have to pay attention...but that's true of literally any player.

I don't know that he has that gear to shift into, but my point was more that he's playing slow because he wants to be playing slow, not because he's trying to play fast but this is just as fast as he can go. We've seen enough guys be successful playing slow, that I'm not too worried about that...if he can get stronger and starts going to the line...but that's a different discussion.


Will he end up a title caliber #1, or even #2? maybe, maybe not. I just think it's way too early to be pointing to his efficiency #s as any sort of barometer for what he'll be able to do in his prime...as we're hopefully starting to see with RJ this season *fingerscrossed*

We will see.

Many great players have had success playing slow. But they generally had the ability to be dynamic, or they had some sort of physical advantage to compensate, and I don't really see that with Cade. Does he play slow because he likes to play slow, or does he play slow because it's the only speed that he can play at?

Maybe as he gets accustomed to the speed of the NBA he will start making quicker decisions and playing at a faster pace. I'm a bit skeptical. Right now I think he plays slow in a Randle kind of way moreso than a Brunson kind of way.

But I do look forward to seeing him improve over time.

I think the scoring efficiency can be - more often than not - telling quite early after the first season. There are always exceptions to the rule but by the third season you generally start to get a sense.

Cade isn't as big as we first thought, but he still has great size for a PG. If he adds strength to it, that frame could be the sort of physical advantage that he can rely on to compensate. Time will tell, I think he's just most comfortable playing slow and is most effective throwing teams off kilter with his pace because he seems like a really smart kid, but that could just be because he's not very explosive.

[mattao313]

For the season he is now averaging 24.0/3.7/7.1 on 42/33/86 splits. Not amazing sure, but also not worthy of some of the vitriol in this thread.

Why use raw percentage instead of ts%? I think he ends up a mid to low level Allstar but 51ts is horrible.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app

[cgf]

Players with 200+ points and 50+ assists this season:

Nikola Jokic (605 career games)
Luka Doncic (338 career games)
Cade Cunningham (85 career games)

TS%: 51.3
TOV: 5.4 per game
On-Off: -8.3

Nobody is fooled by these empty counting stats. He has been terrible.

It's funny because when I first started posting here I complained about people not putting enough weight on TS when looking at raw numbers, and now I think we've reached the other end of the bell curve with people putting too much emphasis on it...at least with young players.

It's a nice tool for judging finished products in different roles, but when you're talking about inexperienced kids being asked to be Luka only with less help than Luka has, you've gotta expect inefficiency and turnovers. If Cade was efficient and didn't turn the ball over despite the lack of help or experience he has, we'd be talking about him the way we did Luka.

[zero rings]

Players with 200+ points and 50+ assists this season:

Nikola Jokic (605 career games)
Luka Doncic (338 career games)
Cade Cunningham (85 career games)

TS%: 51.3
TOV: 5.4 per game
On-Off: -8.3

Nobody is fooled by these empty counting stats. He has been terrible.

It's funny because when I first started posting here I complained about people not putting enough weight on TS when looking at raw numbers, and now I think we've reached the other end of the bell curve with people putting too much emphasis on it...at least with young players.

It's a nice tool for judging finished products in different roles, but when you're talking about inexperienced kids being asked to be Luka only with less help than Luka has, you've gotta expect inefficiency and turnovers. If Cade was efficient and didn't turn the ball over despite the lack of help or experience he has, we'd be talking about him the way we did Luka.

I don’t buy this notion that his teammates are to blame for his atrocious efficiency. He just isn’t that good. Maybe he can be efficient in a small role, but he’s not dynamic enough to be a #1 option.

[7r5ur]

TS%: 51.3
TOV: 5.4 per game
On-Off: -8.3

Nobody is fooled by these empty counting stats. He has been terrible.

It's funny because when I first started posting here I complained about people not putting enough weight on TS when looking at raw numbers, and now I think we've reached the other end of the bell curve with people putting too much emphasis on it...at least with young players.

It's a nice tool for judging finished products in different roles, but when you're talking about inexperienced kids being asked to be Luka only with less help than Luka has, you've gotta expect inefficiency and turnovers. If Cade was efficient and didn't turn the ball over despite the lack of help or experience he has, we'd be talking about him the way we did Luka.

I don’t buy this notion that his teammates are to blame for his atrocious efficiency. He just isn’t that good. Maybe he can be efficient in a small role, but he’s not dynamic enough to be a #1 option.

Blanket statements about a dude who has played 85 NBA games and is currently playing with a lineup of all 19-22 year olds and G-league 2-way guys, with the worst spacing in the league, after sitting out a whole damn year. But of course we're in here talking crazy after 9 games because he's only shooting 42% while averaging 24/7 lol

And it's as if we've never seen players become more efficient with experience and a more functional team. People on here just can't help but overreact.

[cgf]

TS%: 51.3
TOV: 5.4 per game
On-Off: -8.3

Nobody is fooled by these empty counting stats. He has been terrible.

It's funny because when I first started posting here I complained about people not putting enough weight on TS when looking at raw numbers, and now I think we've reached the other end of the bell curve with people putting too much emphasis on it...at least with young players.

It's a nice tool for judging finished products in different roles, but when you're talking about inexperienced kids being asked to be Luka only with less help than Luka has, you've gotta expect inefficiency and turnovers. If Cade was efficient and didn't turn the ball over despite the lack of help or experience he has, we'd be talking about him the way we did Luka.

I don’t buy this notion that his teammates are to blame for his atrocious efficiency. He just isn’t that good. Maybe he can be efficient in a small role, but he’s not dynamic enough to be a #1 option.

*yet


I'd argue that nobody would be efficient with Hayes, Duren, Stew, and Ausar starting around them...but even if that weren't true, all it would prove was that Cade needed more than 85 games to figure things out.

[tmorgan]

You can “not buy the notion” all you want — and yes, his passing can be sloppy af at times — but the Pistons are missing literally ALL of their vet shooters right now (Bojan, Burks, Morris, Harris) and the offense is a complete mess.

Ausar and Killian are just poor shooters. Stewart can shoot but needs to be wide open. Ivey’s currently out but rarely plays with Cade. Duren, Bagley, and (gag) Wiseman don’t usually have much range.

Right now, it’s Sasser. That’s it. It’s hard to look good in this situation.

Now I acknowledge some of the shine is coming off Cunningham. I agree. But you need context.

[cgf]

You can “not buy the notion” all you want — and yes, his passing can be sloppy af at times — but the Pistons are missing literally ALL of their vet shooters right now (Bojan, Burks, Morris, Harris) and the offense is a complete mess.

Ausar and Killian are just poor shooters. Stewart can shoot but needs to be wide open. Ivey’s currently out but rarely plays with Cade. Duren, Bagley, and (gag) Wiseman don’t usually have much range.

Right now, it’s Sasser. That’s it. It’s hard to look good in this situation.

Now I acknowledge some of the shine is coming off Cunningham. I agree. But you need context.

If the shine ever comes off too much, he can come learn from RJ

[zero rings]

It's funny because when I first started posting here I complained about people not putting enough weight on TS when looking at raw numbers, and now I think we've reached the other end of the bell curve with people putting too much emphasis on it...at least with young players.

It's a nice tool for judging finished products in different roles, but when you're talking about inexperienced kids being asked to be Luka only with less help than Luka has, you've gotta expect inefficiency and turnovers. If Cade was efficient and didn't turn the ball over despite the lack of help or experience he has, we'd be talking about him the way we did Luka.

I don’t buy this notion that his teammates are to blame for his atrocious efficiency. He just isn’t that good. Maybe he can be efficient in a small role, but he’s not dynamic enough to be a #1 option.

*yet


I'd argue that nobody would be efficient with Hayes, Duren, Stew, and Ausar starting around them...but even if that weren't true, all it would prove was that Cade needed more than 85 games to figure things out.

Almost every #1 pick in history started their career on a bad team, and of the ones who panned out, none of them looked as bad as Cade.

We’re in year three and he doesn’t have a single plus skill to hang his hat on.

[tmorgan]

You’re just 100% making stuff up now. I won’t do your research for you, but both of the things you just said are verifiably untrue.

[cgf]

I don’t buy this notion that his teammates are to blame for his atrocious efficiency. He just isn’t that good. Maybe he can be efficient in a small role, but he’s not dynamic enough to be a #1 option.

*yet


I'd argue that nobody would be efficient with Hayes, Duren, Stew, and Ausar starting around them...but even if that weren't true, all it would prove was that Cade needed more than 85 games to figure things out.

Almost every #1 pick in history started their career on a bad team, and of the ones who panned out, none of them looked as bad as Cade.

We’re in year three and he doesn’t have a single plus skill to hang his hat on.

He's played 85 games, not all teams who pick #1 are equally bad, and he wouldn't be the first successful top pick to be inefficient at the start of his career.

[MrBigShot]

I don’t buy this notion that his teammates are to blame for his atrocious efficiency. He just isn’t that good. Maybe he can be efficient in a small role, but he’s not dynamic enough to be a #1 option.

*yet


I'd argue that nobody would be efficient with Hayes, Duren, Stew, and Ausar starting around them...but even if that weren't true, all it would prove was that Cade needed more than 85 games to figure things out.

Almost every #1 pick in history started their career on a bad team, and of the ones who panned out, none of them looked as bad as Cade.

We’re in year three and he doesn’t have a single plus skill to hang his hat on.

He missed almost the entire season last year, this is for all intents and purposes essentially his 2nd year.

Big expectations come with being the #1 pick. Cade is too inefficient and turnover prone right now. But the flashes of what could be are there, the feel for the game is there. His inefficiency is mostly on him, but having so many non-shooters around him definitely contributes. There are maybe only ~10 guys in the league that get as much defensive attention as him, purely because teams can afford to just trap him and collapse the defense/leave shooters open.

[DCasey91]

What’s the concerns though? Pre draft I didn’t see an elite offensive or defensive player. Smart 5 hourglass shooter but that stuff doesn’t cut it in the NBA as well to shorter time sets/space and length and obviously better players.

Post injury Grant Hill but with a lot more usage.

The assist/to ratio is bad but seriously it’s like if people didn’t watch College.

[Kalamazoo317]

He’s playing better than Franz, Mobley, Giddey, and Green right now