Victor Wembanyama Mega-Thread Part Two: Repurposed for your Wembanyama needs!

[hardenASG13]

I've seen 4 of his games, missed last night and the Toronto game. It seems like Sochan refuses to pass him the ball. Anyone else notice this?

I dont think Sochan or any other Spur is deliberately refusing to pass the ball to Wemby as a lot of Spurs fans are speculating.
First of all, it's mostly on Wemby, he has been struggling to get into favorable positions, especially those past 3 games. And the few times he does, his teammates dont see him or are unable to pass to to him at the right time. Tre Jones is the only playmaker on this team and while he's decent, he's not a starting caliber PG. Sochan, Vassel and Collins in particular are good passers but they're not really good at setting up plays.
And while it has brought a generational talent to the Spurs, tanking has also given a lot of bad habits to that young squad. It shows on the offensive end but it's glaring on defense, most of those guys have no idea what they're doing. If they see someone driving to the rim, everybody is going to move towards him and leave 3 shooters wide-open, when they have a guy who can defend the rim by himself. Opponents are feasting from the 3pt line because they're constantly left on an island. It's mind-blowing at times how bad most, if not all, of them are defensively.
That team needs some vets, they're way too young and inexperienced but we dont know what their plans are and if they are tanking for another high draft pick, only the Spurs FO and Pop know.

Yeah the are definitely using this year to see what they have around him. A real PG is a glaring need I'm sure they will address. I agree it's partly on wemby, but it seems that when he's able to get a guy on his back or flashes to the mid/high post, they look him off quite a bit, in particular Sochan (who I liked alot last year but that was a clear tanking team).

[G R E Y]

I've seen 4 of his games, missed last night and the Toronto game. It seems like Sochan refuses to pass him the ball. Anyone else notice this?

And yet Sochan leads the team in frequency of passing to Wemby at 21.3%. Then it's Tre at 20.6%, who has a higher passing to Wemby frequency than three starters.

All of these can be true:

For all the apparent refusal to pass to Wemby, Sochan leads the team in it.

We have missed making good passes to Wemby. I do like that we keep moving and find secondary options, but the point stands.

I'd like it if we erred on the side of making a pass rather than not. Losses tend to make players either too reckless or deliberate and cautious, and we're the latter right now.

Teams are adjusting to and loading up on Wemby and it's going to be a work in progress in responding to it better.

Sometimes, Wemby gets a pass not to score but to keep a play moving. Or is a decoy. It's not always the case that not passing to him or him not taking the shot is the wrong play.

We will get better.

[BrooklynDynasty]

The stats flatter him. 4 rebounds came in one possession and the points, well he missed bad shots that should never have been taken.

As I said before preseason even started, he is years away from what most of this forum have already pencilled him in for.

Agreed. And i'm not amused by those penciling him as a future GOAT contender using the tired excuse of his teammates. If you're going to bat for him as *that* kind of potential player, you aren't allowed to ever use "he needs more help" as an excuse. If you're truly that caliber of player, you shouldn't be that dependent on teammate hand holding, as his online defenders insist he does now.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Why does everyone say WembanyaNa.

[BrooklynDynasty]

The Spurs don’t even have a point guard to speak of.

That's that, but if he wants to make a run as a top level player, let alone future GOAT candidate like some tab him as, he can't be dependent on PG play even this soon in his career. I think he'll settle into a groove but when you get slotted into the discussion as best draft prospect ever, I don't want to hear anything about a bad roster.


Also we're a few more games from having to open a discussion about his true defensive impact if Spurs remain near the bottom of the league in that department

C'mon.

C'mon what?


Is it really too much to ask to see this supposed massive defensive impact reflected in team performance? I'm not even saying Spurs need to have the best defense, or even top 5, but can they not be LAST IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE if you are going to take the position that it's impermissible to question Wemby's defensive contribution?


https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

[G R E Y]

Why does everyone say WembanyaNa.

Introducing the YANA Tracker!

Read on Twitter

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Hahahahaha the fact that Breen was saying it made me look up the spelling again.

[hardenASG13]

I've seen 4 of his games, missed last night and the Toronto game. It seems like Sochan refuses to pass him the ball. Anyone else notice this?

And yet Sochan leads the team in frequency of passing to Wemby at 21.3%. Then it's Tre at 20.6%, who has a higher passing to Wemby frequency than three starters.

All of these can be true:

For all the apparent refusal to pass to Wemby, Sochan leads the team in it.

We have missed making good passes to Wemby. I do like that we keep moving and find secondary options, but the point stands.

I'd like it if we erred on the side of making a pass rather than not. Losses tend to make players either too reckless or deliberate and cautious, and we're the latter right now.

Teams are adjusting to and loading up on Wemby and it's going to be a work in progress in responding to it better.

Sometimes, Wemby gets a pass not to score but to keep a play moving. Or is a decoy. It's not always the case that not passing to him or him not taking the shot is the wrong play.

We will get better.

Agree that teams are loading up on him and he will have to figure out ways to better get to his spots.

As far as the passing percentages, it makes sense that Sochan is first since he has the ball alot and is playing PG with the starters. Still feel he's looking him off quite a bit when Wemby is in a good spot to get the ball.

[G R E Y]

I've seen 4 of his games, missed last night and the Toronto game. It seems like Sochan refuses to pass him the ball. Anyone else notice this?

And yet Sochan leads the team in frequency of passing to Wemby at 21.3%. Then it's Tre at 20.6%, who has a higher passing to Wemby frequency than three starters.

All of these can be true:

For all the apparent refusal to pass to Wemby, Sochan leads the team in it.

We have missed making good passes to Wemby. I do like that we keep moving and find secondary options, but the point stands.

I'd like it if we erred on the side of making a pass rather than not. Losses tend to make players either too reckless or deliberate and cautious, and we're the latter right now.

Teams are adjusting to and loading up on Wemby and it's going to be a work in progress in responding to it better.

Sometimes, Wemby gets a pass not to score but to keep a play moving. Or is a decoy. It's not always the case that not passing to him or him not taking the shot is the wrong play.

We will get better.

Agree that teams are loading up on him and he will have to figure out ways to better get to his spots.

As far as the passing percentages, it makes sense that Sochan is first since he has the ball alot and is playing PG with the starters. Still feel he's looking him off quite a bit when Wemby is in a good spot to get the ball.

But he's barely ahead of Tre, our true PG, who many are calling to start. We had a whole season of Tre starting and went this route so that should tell us something. And I really like Tre. I think this just better balances our first and second units. And so yes while I agree we have missed Wemby too much, and Sochan is only 8 games into a new position, it's a team thing. Like Keldon, for instance, was the #1 option on O by default last season and was overtaxed in the role. Now he's filling out nicely with broader contributions and adjusting to passing more as opposed to being the guy who took most shots/was the finisher of a play most often. His D is poor, so having Tre wasn't offsetting it like Sochan can.

It's just going to take time to adjust to one another, new roles, new positions, new starting group.

But I don't get the sense we are actively going out of our way to ignore Wemby though I too get frustrated as an arm chair coach watching on TV and find myself thinking pass it to the tall guy with his hand up! haha

We have to see in like 10 game sections where we are, I think.

The last thing is while I do think we eventually have to get around establishing a pecking order (yes, Wemby is 1st option), it's also about raising the floor of everyone benefitting from playing around him while not over-taxing him.

[G R E Y]

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[TimDunkin]

That's that, but if he wants to make a run as a top level player, let alone future GOAT candidate like some tab him as, he can't be dependent on PG play even this soon in his career. I think he'll settle into a groove but when you get slotted into the discussion as best draft prospect ever, I don't want to hear anything about a bad roster.


Also we're a few more games from having to open a discussion about his true defensive impact if Spurs remain near the bottom of the league in that department

C'mon.

C'mon what?


Is it really too much to ask to see this supposed massive defensive impact reflected in team performance? I'm not even saying Spurs need to have the best defense, or even top 5, but can they not be LAST IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE if you are going to take the position that it's impermissible to question Wemby's defensive contribution?


https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

It is reflected in team performance. Prior to last night's game, the Spurs had a defensive rating of 110.9 with Wemby on the floor and a defensive rating of 129.4 when he was on the bench. He clearly improves what is otherwise an incredibly bad defensive team.

[SNPA]

C'mon.

C'mon what?


Is it really too much to ask to see this supposed massive defensive impact reflected in team performance? I'm not even saying Spurs need to have the best defense, or even top 5, but can they not be LAST IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE if you are going to take the position that it's impermissible to question Wemby's defensive contribution?


https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

It is reflected in team performance. Prior to last night's game, the Spurs had a defensive rating of 110.9 with Wemby on the floor and a defensive rating of 129.4 when he was on the bench. He clearly improves what is otherwise an incredibly bad defensive team.

How anyone that knows the game can watch this kid and not see massive defensive impact is beyond me.

Look for the 7’5’’ guy (the tall one) with an 8’ wingspan with no one in another color jersey intentionally putting up a shot anywhere near him. That’s the first clue.

[tsherkin]

C'mon what?


Is it really too much to ask to see this supposed massive defensive impact reflected in team performance? I'm not even saying Spurs need to have the best defense, or even top 5, but can they not be LAST IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE if you are going to take the position that it's impermissible to question Wemby's defensive contribution?


https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

C'mon... pay attention to the details?

A single player can bootstrap a team's D only so much. Others have already shown you what his on/off defensive impact looks like. The Spurs aren't a good defensive team because... the Spurs aren't a good defense team.

He's exerting a palpable effect on opposition offense. Guys are shooting 35.2% on his defended FGAs, and 28.3% on the THREES that he's guarding. 42.9% on 2PA. They're shooting 43.8% on him inside 10 feet, and 48.3% inside 6 feet.

That's pretty wild, as it happens.

If you see that and still think he isn't exerting a palpable, consequential defensive impact because of his team DRTG, I don't know what to tell you. Their DRTG is low because they don't force turnovers (as a team), and because as a team, they are the second-worst in the league at defensive eFG%. They are the WORST team in the league at defending the 3, despite Wemby's contributions, and 27th at defending the two.

But as already demonstrated, that's not on him. When everyone else on the team sucks, you can accomplish only so much.

[zimpy27]

Why does everyone say WembanyaNa.

I'm guessing because that way it sounds like the Spanish word for "tomorrow" and probably comes out familiar.

[zimpy27]

If you guys tried a little harder to read my post you would realise that nothing I've said is wrong. Nor the context is wrong.

I didn't pick this game, I said the Clippers game he was struggling. The one game he played against bigs that can defend.

You guys picked this game to exclaim that he's KD and you aren't embarrassed.

I'm pointing out that you want to see him score well on a good defensive big for at least 1 game before making declarations like that

KD against GSW 9 days ago: 7/22 FG.

I conclude KD is not good offensively

KD has a history of games to show how good he is. You seem to be missing the point I'm making.

But here's an olive branch, Wemby is going to be up against better defensive Cs the next 5 games.

If he can average equal stats to what he has these last 5 games then I will consider him to outperform expectations.

I'm expecting him to be scoring 16ppg at 55% TS the next 5 games on average.

This post is from 3 games ago, so far in the 3 games since I posted this we have Wemby at 15.67ppg at 47.4% TS

I had people laughing at me for not thinking Wemby's offense was KD-like.
I simply wasn't comfortable with the limited data on actual bigs that could defend.


So now we have:
Against the poor defensive bigs of PHOx2, HOU, DAL: 23ppg on 61.5% TS
Against the good defensive bigs of LAC, NYK, TOR, IND: 14.5ppg on 46.7% TS

Still a tiny sample but at least equal parts good big defense vs bad big defense.

This is not a diss on Wemby, it's simply a reality check on who this player is now and what we can expect for this rookie player.
At his peak he will be somewhere between KP and Embiid offensively IMO.

[tsherkin]

This is not a diss on Wemby, it's simply a reality check on who this player is now and what we can expect for this rookie player.
At his peak he will be somewhere between KP and Embiid offensively IMO.

Yeah, I mean there's a learning curve. I've been tooting the "he's a rookie" horn for a while now. He's going to have ups and downs, he's going to have some learning opportunities from bad games. Other dudes who went on to become amazing scorers had sub-50% TS rookie seasons (Lebron and KD come to mind immediately).

People do need to realize he isn't going to be in his final form right out of the gate as a rookie. He needs to be allowed some time to struggle and grow, which he will. He already does some things really well. San Antonio can already see that he does the D-Rob really well, exploiting smaller guys, getting them on his back, getting the catch and finishing over top of them or otherwise abusing them. It's a fantastic start. He needs to find his shot and he needs to figure out what to do against bigger guys, but he's early in his rookie season and has plenty of time to figure it all out. Chet is ahead of him offensively, and that's fine. Wemby is, however, doing fantastic things on the defensive side of things, some of which are getting lost in the sea of how bloody awful the rest of the team is on that end of the floor.

[zimpy27]

This is not a diss on Wemby, it's simply a reality check on who this player is now and what we can expect for this rookie player.
At his peak he will be somewhere between KP and Embiid offensively IMO.

Yeah, I mean there's a learning curve. I've been tooting the "he's a rookie" horn for a while now. He's going to have ups and downs, he's going to have some learning opportunities from bad games. Other dudes who went on to become amazing scorers had sub-50% TS rookie seasons (Lebron and KD come to mind immediately).

People do need to realize he isn't going to be in his final form right out of the gate as a rookie. He needs to be allowed some time to struggle and grow, which he will. He already does some things really well. San Antonio can already see that he does the D-Rob really well, exploiting smaller guys, getting them on his back, getting the catch and finishing over top of them or otherwise abusing them. It's a fantastic start. He needs to find his shot and he needs to figure out what to do against bigger guys, but he's early in his rookie season and has plenty of time to figure it all out. Chet is ahead of him offensively, and that's fine. Wemby is, however, doing fantastic things on the defensive side of things, some of which are getting lost in the sea of how bloody awful the rest of the team is on that end of the floor.

Yeah Wemby is elite already defensively. I think the team needs to improve and Spurs need to move him to C to grow the actual impact.

Offensively he will take advantage of mismatches. He needs to add some bulk to allow him to eat more in the paint and get his FTA up. The outside game is being used to give him time to rest a little. As he gets stronger and fitter he will have better legs for these shots.

[Sphynx]

The stats flatter him. 4 rebounds came in one possession and the points, well he missed bad shots that should never have been taken.

As I said before preseason even started, he is years away from what most of this forum have already pencilled him in for.

Yep, he's clearly got the ceiling to be the best player in the NBA.

I don't want to drag it off topic.

But Chet is playing like what most people thought they had Wemby pencilled in for, maybe even better tbh given Chet looks like he will be one of the leagues best perimeter shooters and how outrageously smooth he is with the ball. I have very little doubt Chet is going to be one of the best players of the next 10-15 years.

Not a massive game on paper, but good god, have a look at the skill on display here.

Watch on YouTube

Wemby shows flashes of this polish every game, Chet just plays with it constantly.

Maybe we need a Chet thread.

[TyCobb]

The stats flatter him. 4 rebounds came in one possession and the points, well he missed bad shots that should never have been taken.

As I said before preseason even started, he is years away from what most of this forum have already pencilled him in for.

Yep, he's clearly got the ceiling to be the best player in the NBA.

I don't want to drag it off topic.

But Chet is playing like what most people thought they had Wemby pencilled in for, maybe even better tbh given Chet looks like he will be one of the leagues best perimeter shooters and how outrageously smooth he is with the ball. I have very little doubt Chet is going to be one of the best players of the next 10-15 years.

Not a massive game on paper, but good god, have a look at the skill on display here.

Watch on YouTube

Wemby shows flashes of this polish every game, Chet just plays with it constantly.

Maybe we need a Chet thread.

Well he is almost 2 years older than Wembanyama. Holmgren is a great young player though.

[tsherkin]

Yeah Wemby is elite already defensively. I think the team needs to improve and Spurs need to move him to C to grow the actual impact.

And Lebron and KD both needed to be SFs, not PGs or SGs, which is a change we saw after the team felt them out as rookies. Wemby needs some time to develop his body and for the team to figure out how to best position him, that's all. That's normal. As you say, he isn't quite ready to be used as a full-time center and once he gets a little physical development in him, we should see a little difference in his deployment, which will help.