PG - Medíocre

[Jcool0]

No hope, no change unless the FO make moves where Vuc/Zach/DDR are moved for draft picks, young players with potential, and cap space for free agency.

Who are you spending the free agent money on? What major free agent is coming to a team with Coby, Pwill, Caruso, a couple MLE players, and mid first round rookies and picks?

We already have young players with so-called potential. A couple with actual proven talent would be nice.

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Next summer will have a number of B level and solid role players like Siakam, Hield, Dinwiddie, Monk, and Oubre.
Summer 2025 will have various big names they need to try to seek after like Donovan Mitchell if he opts out and Paul George or they can grab another B level player like OG or Ingram.

I would even give young guys with scoring potential but are limited due to little playing time a shot like Moses Moody and Jalen Hardy if their current teams won't keep them.

Paul George would be such a Bulls move. Signing him when he has maybe 1 or 2 years left in the NBA.

[Stratmaster]

Zach was responsible for at least 6 wide open 3s.

He also had two costly turnovers in the last two mins.

He is only a winning player if he plays as a shooter but Billy won’t run him off any screens and when Zach does get the ball he dribbled into a tough contested 3 instead of shooting the open/lightly contested 3.

Lavine had 1 turnover in q4 and OT (:45 Q4). I just triple checked it.

What about Demar's turnover at 1:11 of q4?

Coby at 4:48 of the OT.

Coby again at 1:46 of OT

Caruso had 1 down the stretch also.

But what you saw as a negative was 8 assist, 8 rebounds, 22 points on 13 shots Zach Lavine.





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I just checked. He had two turnovers. Rewatch. Play by play may have messed up.

Zach’s D was awful. Wide open 3s all game.

He played a good floor game until crunch time. Normal for him.

He’s a max player. He has to be better. I am also over critical of him because he makes everything so much harder. If he simply played as a shooter and Bilkybran screens for him he would be incredible. Like crazy good. Instead he pump fakes out of good shots in the flow of the game to dribble around and take contested shots… that he does make but he could make way more at a higher clip.

Billy doesnt run screens for him, and no one on the team has the vision and ability to find him when he is open. We see it game after game. For the most part, the only way Zach gets a shot once Demar, Coby or Vuc touch the ball is if they get stopped and pass it to Lavine with 7 seconds left on the shot clock to bail them out.

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[Chi town]

Lavine had 1 turnover in q4 and OT (:45 Q4). I just triple checked it.

What about Demar's turnover at 1:11 of q4?

Coby at 4:48 of the OT.

Coby again at 1:46 of OT

Caruso had 1 down the stretch also.

But what you saw as a negative was 8 assist, 8 rebounds, 22 points on 13 shots Zach Lavine.





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I just checked. He had two turnovers. Rewatch. Play by play may have messed up.

Zach’s D was awful. Wide open 3s all game.

He played a good floor game until crunch time. Normal for him.

He’s a max player. He has to be better. I am also over critical of him because he makes everything so much harder. If he simply played as a shooter and Bilkybran screens for him he would be incredible. Like crazy good. Instead he pump fakes out of good shots in the flow of the game to dribble around and take contested shots… that he does make but he could make way more at a higher clip.

He has the one where the ball slipped out of his hands going to the rim and it bounced off his knee.

He had a shot blocked.

What was the other turnover?

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Shotblocked. I remembered that as a turnover.

Was it? Or did we get it out of bounds?

[Stratmaster]

1. I'll concede that the Bulls tried to get Demar involved but Vuc only got shots up because he's the primary screener and I doubt somebody told Craig to take a fading midrange shot.

2. Zach not taking any shots was more of a coincidence than anything.

That was clearly purposeful that Craig took that possession.

Watch the first 2 plus minutes again.

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Derozan's drive was cut off and Craig was the outlet. Craig attacked KD's closeout but the late switch cut off his drive. This is not a designed play.

Demar isn't even double teamed. If he wanted the shot he could have had it. And Craig didn't even look for another option. He was shooting from the time he came out of the corner.

But regardless, the point still stands. Whether Demar or Craig they were purposely trying to get others involved. You said Craig was the outlet for Demar...it doesn't have to be a designed play. It was the designed scheme

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[Stratmaster]

I just checked. He had two turnovers. Rewatch. Play by play may have messed up.

Zach’s D was awful. Wide open 3s all game.

He played a good floor game until crunch time. Normal for him.

He’s a max player. He has to be better. I am also over critical of him because he makes everything so much harder. If he simply played as a shooter and Bilkybran screens for him he would be incredible. Like crazy good. Instead he pump fakes out of good shots in the flow of the game to dribble around and take contested shots… that he does make but he could make way more at a higher clip.

He has the one where the ball slipped out of his hands going to the rim and it bounced off his knee.

He had a shot blocked.

What was the other turnover?

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Shotblocked. I remembered that as a turnover.

Was it? Or did we get it out of bounds?

Gotcha. Yeah. Like, you say, A shot blocked isn't a turnover. If it was we could add 2 for Pwill, another one against Demar, another one for Caruso, and one against Carter. All in q4. The Bulls had 6 shots blocked in q4

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[kodo]

TOs happen unless you don't try to do anything. Durant had 6 TOs, why isn't there any criticism of Durant?
Player A had 25 points on 62% TS, 6 TOs.
Player B had 22 points on 68% TS, 3 TOs.

Both players were on par, if not B being quite a better due to efficiency and far less TOs.
If the requirement for the Bulls to win is for Lavine to be better than KD nightly, then the Bulls are a bad team.

[Stratmaster]

TOs happen unless you don't try to do anything. Durant had 6 TOs, why isn't there any criticism of Durant?
Player A had 25 points on 62% TS, 6 TOs.
Player B had 22 points on 68% TS, 3 TOs.

Both players were on par, if not B being quite a better due to efficiency and far less TOs.
If the requirement for the Bulls to win is for Lavine to be better than KD nightly, then the Bulls are a bad team.

Yeah I have been through this so many times and the detractors never acknowledge the point, or the facts, when presented with the data.

Zach was one of 5 players tied with the 37th most turnovers per game last season.

The worst in the list, in order:

Trae Young
Giannis
Ball
Jokic
Doncic
Westbrook
Embiid
Morant
Harden
Durant
Lillard
Edward's
LeBron
Ivey
Steph
K Porter Jr
Poole
Paul George
Clarkson
Kuzma

All of those players averaged more than 3 turnovers per game. A bunch of bums right?

Zach pales in comparison with 2.5 per game.

Others worse than Zach: Holiday, Beal, SGA, Randle, Booker, Mitchell. But Lavine is a turnover machine, right?

Lavine was 15th in the league in usage. Tied for 37-42 in turnovers. He actually turns the ball over at a pretty acceptable, if not impressively low, rate. This is evidenced by the fact there were 110 players in the league worse than Lavine in turnover percentage. Alex Caruso was 4th worst in the league. In fact, there were 7 BULLS with worse turnover percentages.


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[FriedRise]

They all turn the ball over, even the best ones during crucial moments of the game. It's part of the game. We're the lowest turnover team in the league, so that's so far down the list for me in terms of the big elephant in the room. I don't even know why we're talking about it.

Our issue remains that for the first 43 minutes of the game that we're struggling to solve that 3 > 2. Now that DeMar is shooting full 7% lower on his midrange jumpers compared to the previous two years (on the same number of attempts), teams are more than fine sticking one defender on him. They used to send 2 at him, because otherwise it's 2 free points for Chicago. Let somebody else beat us, so the Bulls upgraded their shooters. Now it's just one defender. If he makes it, he makes it; they know they can just go to the other end and try to beat us with a 3. They can live with him taking 15 shots from the midrange at a 43% clip.

Same thing with Vooch. He's back to shooting terrible % from 2 for a center (53%), which sadly is on par with his career average. He was at 60% last year, but it was a contract year.

Our top 3 players just don't make their teammates better. Hell, they're even struggling to turn in an efficient night themselves, so it's hard to see how they can keep up with any of these modern NBA teams yet alone meaningfully compete. They constantly need a herculian effort from the lowly paid role players to give them a spark.

[Red8911]

TOs happen unless you don't try to do anything. Durant had 6 TOs, why isn't there any criticism of Durant?
Player A had 25 points on 62% TS, 6 TOs.
Player B had 22 points on 68% TS, 3 TOs.

Both players were on par, if not B being quite a better due to efficiency and far less TOs.
If the requirement for the Bulls to win is for Lavine to be better than KD nightly, then the Bulls are a bad team.

Yeah I have been through this so many times and the detractors never acknowledge the point, or the facts, when presented with the data.

Zach was one of 5 players tied with the 37th most turnovers per game last season.

The worst in the list, in order:

Trae Young
Giannis
Ball
Jokic
Doncic
Westbrook
Embiid
Morant
Harden
Durant
Lillard
Edward's
LeBron
Ivey
Steph
K Porter Jr
Poole
Paul George
Clarkson
Kuzma

All of those players averaged more than 3 turnovers per game. A bunch of bums right?

Zach pales in comparison with 2.5 per game.

Others worse than Zach: Holiday, Beal, SGA, Randle, Booker, Mitchell. But Lavine is a turnover machine, right?

Lavine was 15th in the league in usage. Tied for 37-42 in turnovers. He actually turns the ball over at a pretty acceptable, if not impressively low, rate. This is evidenced by the fact there were 110 players in the league worse than Lavine in turnover percentage. Alex Caruso was 4th worst in the league. In fact, there were 7 BULLS with worse turnover percentages.


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It’s true star level players turn the ball over a lot but difference is most of the players you listed are better players than Zach. They will win you games, they will take and make the big crunch time shots, they will lead their teams to the playoffs and beyond.

I know you like Zach but the guy hasn’t done much for the Bulls. I had high hopes for him but I’m sick and tired of him, he’s been here for 6 + years and he continues to not impact winning games. I think AK feels the same and will probably trade him this season.

[R3AL1TY]

Who are you spending the free agent money on? What major free agent is coming to a team with Coby, Pwill, Caruso, a couple MLE players, and mid first round rookies and picks?

We already have young players with so-called potential. A couple with actual proven talent would be nice.

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Next summer will have a number of B level and solid role players like Siakam, Hield, Dinwiddie, Monk, and Oubre.
Summer 2025 will have various big names they need to try to seek after like Donovan Mitchell if he opts out and Paul George or they can grab another B level player like OG or Ingram.

I would even give young guys with scoring potential but are limited due to little playing time a shot like Moses Moody and Jalen Hardy if their current teams won't keep them.

Paul George would be such a Bulls move. Signing him when he has maybe 1 or 2 years left in the NBA.

Unlike before, you'll just get one player up there in age that can score and defend instead of two that only gives you offense. But this to me would be a plan B option if a guy like Mitchell isn't available.

[Infinity2152]

110 players with worse turnover percentage than Zach, and most of those guys are better than Zach. Impossible. Just impossible. There are not 110 players in the league more impactful than Zach, and that includes the guys with better turnover percentage. Guy is consistently rated a top 50 player EVERYWHERE. Lots of Bulls fans like Zach, but the fact he's consistently ranked at or around the top 10% by pretty much every poll not conducted by the Bulls means general opinion of Zach is he's a pretty valuable player.

Sometimes we're more critical of our own people, it's natural. Harshest critic is usually the parent.

[2weekswithpay]

They all turn the ball over, even the best ones during crucial moments of the game. It's part of the game. We're the lowest turnover team in the league, so that's so far down the list for me in terms of the big elephant in the room. I don't even know why we're talking about it.

Our issue remains that for the first 43 minutes of the game that we're struggling to solve that 3 > 2. Now that DeMar is shooting full 7% lower on his midrange jumpers compared to the previous two years (on the same number of attempts), teams are more than fine sticking one defender on him. They used to send 2 at him, because otherwise it's 2 free points for Chicago. Let somebody else beat us, so the Bulls upgraded their shooters. Now it's just one defender. If he makes it, he makes it; they know they can just go to the other end and try to beat us with a 3. They can live with him taking 15 shots from the midrange at a 43% clip.

Same thing with Vooch. He's back to shooting terrible % from 2 for a center (53%), which sadly is on par with his career average. He was at 60% last year, but it was a contract year.

Our top 3 players just don't make their teammates better. Hell, they're even struggling to turn in an efficient night themselves, so it's hard to see how they can keep up with any of these modern NBA teams yet alone meaningfully compete. They constantly need a herculian effort from the lowly paid role players to give them a spark.

I actually think that turnovers are an important topic but for different reasons. Turnovers are rightfully seen as a bad thing but having a higher number of turnovers isn't always bad. This is the 2nd year in a row that the Bulls don't turn the ball over but have a below-average offense. More TOs are fine if it means creating more quality scoring opportunities.

KD and Zach in this game is an example of this. Zach had 1 less assist than KD and half as many TOs. Does that mean Zach created a similar quality of shots for his team as KD who was doubled the entire game?

Spoiler:

This isn't a knock on Zach but the answer is no.

[2weekswithpay]

I think a lot of fans are overthinking this. 3s are essential to a modern NBA offense but you don't need to be a high volume 3pt shooting team to have a good offense. The Nuggets proved that last season, they were just above the Bulls in 3PAs and FTAs per game. They were able to consistently create high-quality looks on offense, so there was no need for 40 3s a night or a lot of FTs.

The issue with the Bulls is that they don't have a way to consistently create quality scoring attempts.

[Stratmaster]

TOs happen unless you don't try to do anything. Durant had 6 TOs, why isn't there any criticism of Durant?
Player A had 25 points on 62% TS, 6 TOs.
Player B had 22 points on 68% TS, 3 TOs.

Both players were on par, if not B being quite a better due to efficiency and far less TOs.
If the requirement for the Bulls to win is for Lavine to be better than KD nightly, then the Bulls are a bad team.

Yeah I have been through this so many times and the detractors never acknowledge the point, or the facts, when presented with the data.

Zach was one of 5 players tied with the 37th most turnovers per game last season.

The worst in the list, in order:

Trae Young
Giannis
Ball
Jokic
Doncic
Westbrook
Embiid
Morant
Harden
Durant
Lillard
Edward's
LeBron
Ivey
Steph
K Porter Jr
Poole
Paul George
Clarkson
Kuzma

All of those players averaged more than 3 turnovers per game. A bunch of bums right?

Zach pales in comparison with 2.5 per game.

Others worse than Zach: Holiday, Beal, SGA, Randle, Booker, Mitchell. But Lavine is a turnover machine, right?

Lavine was 15th in the league in usage. Tied for 37-42 in turnovers. He actually turns the ball over at a pretty acceptable, if not impressively low, rate. This is evidenced by the fact there were 110 players in the league worse than Lavine in turnover percentage. Alex Caruso was 4th worst in the league. In fact, there were 7 BULLS with worse turnover percentages.


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It’s true star level players turn the ball over a lot but difference is most of the players you listed are better players than Zach. They will win you games, they will take and make the big crunch time shots, they will lead their teams to the playoffs and beyond.

I know you like Zach but the guy hasn’t done much for the Bulls. I had high hopes for him but I’m sick and tired of him, he’s been here for 6 + years and he continues to not impact winning games. I think AK feels the same and will probably trade him this season.

The comment was regarding turnovers. Nothing more. Zach turns the ball over at a pretty low rate for his usage.

There are absolutely valid criticisms of Lavine. Being a "turnover machine" or even calling him "turnover prone" just isn't one of them.

The only scenario where it makes sense to trade Lavine is a complete tear down. Even then, assuming you want to have something to sell tickets it makes some sense to keep him. All of that simply because he is the youngest player with any all star level talent on the team. Not because I like him.

I'm honestly at the point where I wish they would trade him somewhere where he actually has a chance to play alongside 4 NBA quality players, because he has never had that opportunity


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[Stratmaster]

Next summer will have a number of B level and solid role players like Siakam, Hield, Dinwiddie, Monk, and Oubre.
Summer 2025 will have various big names they need to try to seek after like Donovan Mitchell if he opts out and Paul George or they can grab another B level player like OG or Ingram.

I would even give young guys with scoring potential but are limited due to little playing time a shot like Moses Moody and Jalen Hardy if their current teams won't keep them.

Paul George would be such a Bulls move. Signing him when he has maybe 1 or 2 years left in the NBA.

Unlike before, you'll just get one player up there in age that can score and defend instead of two that only gives you offense. But this to me would be a plan B option if a guy like Mitchell isn't available.

Mitchell doesn't move the needle much from Lavine, probably isn't going anywhere, and ends up costing almost a much. Potato, potatoe

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[FriedRise]

Read on Twitter

[R3AL1TY]

Paul George would be such a Bulls move. Signing him when he has maybe 1 or 2 years left in the NBA.

Unlike before, you'll just get one player up there in age that can score and defend instead of two that only gives you offense. But this to me would be a plan B option if a guy like Mitchell isn't available.

Mitchell doesn't move the needle much from Lavine, probably isn't going anywhere, and ends up costing almost a much. Potato, potatoe

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I'll take his basketball IQ and 28-30 ppg average as of late for a higher price if available.

[Stratmaster]

Unlike before, you'll just get one player up there in age that can score and defend instead of two that only gives you offense. But this to me would be a plan B option if a guy like Mitchell isn't available.

Mitchell doesn't move the needle much from Lavine, probably isn't going anywhere, and ends up costing almost a much. Potato, potatoe

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I'll take his basketball IQ and 28-30 ppg average as of late for a higher price if available.

Mitchell is taking 4 more shots per game than Zach. Lavine gives you the same production with the same usage.

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[R3AL1TY]

Mitchell doesn't move the needle much from Lavine, probably isn't going anywhere, and ends up costing almost a much. Potato, potatoe

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I'll take his basketball IQ and 28-30 ppg average as of late for a higher price if available.

Mitchell is taking 4 more shots per game than Zach. Lavine gives you the same production with the same usage.

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Not a problem if he's making these higher attempts at a good percentage while giving me more assists than Zach, playing better defense than Zach, and can play better situational basketball close to the end of a tight game than Zach.

[Stratmaster]

I'll take his basketball IQ and 28-30 ppg average as of late for a higher price if available.

Mitchell is taking 4 more shots per game than Zach. Lavine gives you the same production with the same usage.

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Not a problem if he's making these higher attempts at a good percentage while giving me more assists than Zach, playing better defense than Zach, and can play better situational basketball close to the end of a tight game than Zach.

Except he doesn't do all of those things.

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