NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24

[RB34]

Best record & best stats, but hey, can't please everyone.

30/13/8 vs 32/11/5. Philly is 8-1 and Denver is 8-2.

Embiid wasn’t even the best player on his team for a few of those wins.

Defense.

His perceived advantages on defence are outweighed by the fact that he’s a flopping free throw merchant that doesn’t make a single teammate better.

[GeorgeSears]

10 games into the season, my rankings (2023-11-13):
1. Jokic
2. Embiid
3. Luka
4. Curry
5. Tatum
6. Maxey
7. Ant-Man
8. Shai
9. Giannis
10. Haliburton

(will be updated after 20 games)

[Big J]

30/13/8 vs 32/11/5. Philly is 8-1 and Denver is 8-2.

Embiid wasn’t even the best player on his team for a few of those wins.

Defense.

His perceived advantages on defence are outweighed by the fact that he’s a flopping free throw merchant that doesn’t make a single teammate better.

Getting to the line is a negative?

[RB34]

Defense.

His perceived advantages on defence are outweighed by the fact that he’s a flopping free throw merchant that doesn’t make a single teammate better.

Getting to the line is a negative?

Generally no, but Embiids history has shown flopping his way there hasn’t worked when it’s mattered most.

[eyeatoma]

Best record & best stats, but hey, can't please everyone.

30/13/8 vs 32/11/5. Philly is 8-1 and Denver is 8-2.

Embiid wasn’t even the best player on his team for a few of those wins.

Defense.

Defense doesn't count in the MVP race, didn't you hear?

Some players are just so incredible offensively that defense doesn't matter.

[Edrees]

Jokic has gotta be the GOAT at avoiding contact in the paint or something...looking at top 4 MVP candidates:

Jokic
133 shots in the paint this year (72% shooting)
57 free throws

Embiid
123 shots in the paint this year (55% shooting)
97 free throws

Giannis
125 shots in paint this year (67% shooting)
94 free throws

Doncic
82 shots in the paint this year (65% shooting)
75 free throws

How is Jokic so good at avoiding contact?! This should be studied!

Source(s): NBA.com player shooting sub page

Upon studying it myself, seems he's better at it than Lebron, but Lebron comes in 2nd place at avoiding contact in the paint, so if you study his game maybe it'll help you "understand" this phenomena. I also used NBA.com and I used anything from 0 to 16 ft as 'paint" which is what I assumed you did?

James
95 shots in the paint
56 free throws

I never realized how tough Jokic had it with the whistle though. That's pretty crazy not going to lie. You could made an arguement he does shoot more fadeaways and other types of shots in the paint that would prevent contact, but the different would be a lot smaller and not the chasm showed by these numbers.

[eyeatoma]

His perceived advantages on defence are outweighed by the fact that he’s a flopping free throw merchant that doesn’t make a single teammate better.

Getting to the line is a negative?

Generally no, but Embiids history has shown flopping his way there hasn’t worked when it’s mattered most.

He has a flop maybe once a game. Wow, that really negates the 95% of the time he actually earns the trips to the line. Cmon man...

[eyeatoma]

Read on Twitter

Interesting, I thought Embiid was the worst offender!

[Edrees]

Read on Twitter

Interesting, I thought Embiid was the worst offender!

I mean, all it could mean is that Embiid is better at finishing through contact, hence more And 1's and lets points off the actual free throw. Doesn't mean he gets less calls than these other players. That could change these stats by a huge amount. (3 or 2 vs 1 free throw) But those first 2 players definitely are bad offenders, and I'm pretty sure it would be used against them as well if they were playing at MVP levels.

[Big J]

His perceived advantages on defence are outweighed by the fact that he’s a flopping free throw merchant that doesn’t make a single teammate better.

Getting to the line is a negative?

Generally no, but Embiids history has shown flopping his way there hasn’t worked when it’s mattered most.

MVP is a regular season award last I checked.

[eyeatoma]

Read on Twitter

Interesting, I thought Embiid was the worst offender!

I mean, all it could mean is that Embiid is better at finishing through contact, hence more And 1's. Doesn't mean he gets less calls than these other players. That could change these stats by a huge amount. (3 or 2 vs 1 free throw)

I think Embiid earns the majority of calls. He's basically Shaq lite as far as his ability to draw fouls. Not as powerful, and not as much as a load, but exceptionally talented at it. People talk about playoffs, and his numbers dropping, his foul rate stays fairly similar. The issue for Embiid, is that he doesn't handle double teams well. Part of that is on scheme (when you have a coach who has a smooth brain like Doc Rivers, it makes it that much harder). I'm curious to see how he will do under Nurse in the playoffs.

[eyeatoma]

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

If Maxey doesn't make all-nba it will be a travesty, if he continues to perform like this.

[RB34]

Getting to the line is a negative?

Generally no, but Embiids history has shown flopping his way there hasn’t worked when it’s mattered most.

He has a flop maybe once a game. Wow, that really negates the 95% of the time he actually earns the trips to the line. Cmon man...

I’m starting to think you don’t even watch the dude play. He’s constantly flailing.

Edit: remember all those years certain players were removed from the MVP race for having a top 5 teammate. Is that not a thing anymore?

[eyeatoma]

Generally no, but Embiids history has shown flopping his way there hasn’t worked when it’s mattered most.

He has a flop maybe once a game. Wow, that really negates the 95% of the time he actually earns the trips to the line. Cmon man...

I’m starting to think you don’t even watch the dude play. He’s constantly flailing.

Edit: remember all those years certain players were removed from the MVP race for having a top 5 teammate. Is that not a thing anymore?

Let's see didn't LeBron win MVP with Wade?

The Sixers wouldn't be contenders right now without Embiid.

It's more for the Jayson Tatum's of this world who mix otherworldly performances with ordinary performances on a stacked team.

[Exp0sed]

Best record & best stats, but hey, can't please everyone.

30/13/8 vs 32/11/5. Philly is 8-1 and Denver is 8-2.

Embiid wasn’t even the best player on his team for a few of those wins.

Defense.

efficiency

[eyeatoma]

30/13/8 vs 32/11/5. Philly is 8-1 and Denver is 8-2.

Embiid wasn’t even the best player on his team for a few of those wins.

Defense.

efficiency

Game is played on both sides.

[Exp0sed]

Defense.

efficiency

Game is played on both sides.

the point was that even if Embiid's defensive impact is higher than Jokic (i'm kinda doubtful tbh) - the offensive gap more than makes up for it. if you score the same points using much less possessions - there are more possessions for your team to outscore the opponent.

Jokic thus far this season: ORTG -131 DRTG - 105, DBPM - 4.0 (!)

Joe L - ORTG 123, DRTG 107, DBPM 1.3

edit: just because Embiid is a great rim protector and generally quicker and more athletic does not automatically mean he's the better defender. Jokic is a much better team defender, there are alot of aspects of modern defense and in most of them Jokic > Embiid

+-, on\off numbers also reaffirm Jokic's higher impact (on both ends)

p.s - the 76ers started hot on the back of a soft schedule and the MVP version of Maxey and while they have been great defensively, they're 8th in defense while being 2nd or 3rd in offense

so it's their offense that's been really stellar thus far, not the side of the court you alluded to

on that side of the court, Denver is boasting the 6th best defense so far, with defensive juggernauts such as Murray and MPJ in the lineup lol

[eyeatoma]

efficiency

Game is played on both sides.

the point was that even if Embiid's defensive impact is higher than Jokic (i'm kinda doubtful tbh) - the offensive gap more than makes up for it. if you score the same points using much less possessions - there are more possessions for your team to outscore the opponent.

Jokic thus far this season: ORTG -131 DRTG - 105, DBPM - 4.0 (!)

Joe L - ORTG 123, DRTG 107, DBPM 1.3

Yeah yeah we've heard this tons of times.

Defensive advanced stats are broken. They overvalue assists from a big man and put on overemphasis on rebounds.

[Cubbies2120]

Jokic has gotta be the GOAT at avoiding contact in the paint or something...looking at top 4 MVP candidates:

Jokic
133 shots in the paint this year (72% shooting)
57 free throws

Embiid
123 shots in the paint this year (55% shooting)
97 free throws

Giannis
125 shots in paint this year (67% shooting)
94 free throws

Doncic
82 shots in the paint this year (65% shooting)
75 free throws

How is Jokic so good at avoiding contact?! This should be studied!

Source(s): NBA.com player shooting sub page

Upon studying it myself, seems he's better at it than Lebron, but Lebron comes in 2nd place at avoiding contact in the paint, so if you study his game maybe it'll help you "understand" this phenomena. I also used NBA.com and I used anything from 0 to 16 ft as 'paint" which is what I assumed you did?

James
95 shots in the paint
56 free throws

I never realized how tough Jokic had it with the whistle though. That's pretty crazy not going to lie. You could made an arguement he does shoot more fadeaways and other types of shots in the paint that would prevent contact, but the different would be a lot smaller and not the chasm showed by these numbers.

No, I used the section right below that:
Restricted Area - 64 FGA
In The Paint (Non-RA) - 69 FGA

If we use 0-16 feet, then there's 10 more FG attempts for Jokic so it skews the numbers even more.

[Exp0sed]

Game is played on both sides.

the point was that even if Embiid's defensive impact is higher than Jokic (i'm kinda doubtful tbh) - the offensive gap more than makes up for it. if you score the same points using much less possessions - there are more possessions for your team to outscore the opponent.

Jokic thus far this season: ORTG -131 DRTG - 105, DBPM - 4.0 (!)

Joe L - ORTG 123, DRTG 107, DBPM 1.3

Yeah yeah we've heard this tons of times.

Defensive advanced stats are broken. They overvalue assists from a big man and put on overemphasis on rebounds.

maybe in regards to BPM but DRTG is just what it is - how good (or bad) was the defense when said player was on the court, has nothing to do with big men assists or any other mumbo jumbo

the on\off numbers tell the same story

it's okay to be second best! nothing to be ashamed of...Jokic is a clear top 10 player (he will be when all is said and done)
it's okay to play second fiddle to a true ATG, no shame in that