Fierce1 wrote:31to6 wrote:Fierce1 wrote:Yeah, not saying he's already as good as Larry, but clearly JT is on that level.
That level is certainly above Paul Pierce's level.
I'll consider Tatum above Pierce's level when he wins a 2nd title in Boston. I hope that is soon. But he isn't there yet. For now, for me, Paul's clutch scoring prowess evens out the All-NBA selections that Tatum has in his favor.
To be on Larry's level? That's 3 MVPs and 3 rings -- I hope Tatum gets there, but there's not many players in the history of the sport on that level!
Russell, Larry, Magic, Jordan, Kareem, LeBron are the only players with at least 3 MVPs and at least 3 titles.
Wilt (2 titles, 4 MVPs), Duncan (5 titles, 2 MVPs), Steph (4 rings, 2 MVPs), and Moses (3 MVPs, 1 ring) are varying degrees of 'close'.
If you don't want to count things like MVPs or rings, then just put them on a court together at age 26 each and I guarantee you Larry is the better player by a country mile. I love Tatum but it's true. If you saw Larry, you know this.
And FWIW Tatum is only occasionally playing 'strong'. Just as often he's splaying out, falling backwards, and/or falling down, then (still!) looking at the ref for a call.
Sorry for the rant. I believe Celtics fans have an awesome history to be aware of and to cherish. And to be realistic about as we evaluate our current stars.
I became a Celtic fan because of Larry Bird.
I'm an 80's kid.
While JT has no rings and MVP awards, it's also true Bird is not as athletic as JT.
JT also has better handles.
You also don't see Bird dunk like JT.
It's just a matter of time, when JT gets that ring, every Celtic fan will acknowkedge JT's greatness.
Robert Horry has more rings than Kobe.
That doesn't mean Horry is the better player.
Strawmen arguments like 'Horry vs Kobe' are why I wrote this:
If you don't want to count things like MVPs or rings, then just put them on a court together at age 26 each and I guarantee you Larry is the better player by a country mile. I love Tatum but it's true. If you saw Larry, you know this.
I am glad we both got to see Larry. By my way of thinking, taking Larry and giving him the ability to "dunk like Tatum" would have led to no more banners, MVPs, or maybe even regular season wins.
Let's look at some stats:
Regular season:
BPM: Larry 6.9, Tatum 3.4
WS/48: Larry 0.20, Tatum 0.15
PER: Larry 23.5, Tatum 19.8
So Larry leads in all of those, but those are career averages -- let's look at age 24 seasons (Larry's 2nd; Tatum's 6th!):
BPM: Larry 4.3, Tatum 5.5!
WS/48: Larry 0.16, Tatum 0.19!
PER: Larry 19.9, Tatum 23.7!
So at the same age, Tatum is leading in those.
Let's look at playoffs -- first, career averages:
BPM: Larry 6.9, Tatum 4.3
WS/48: Larry 0.17, Tatum 0.13
PER: Larry 21.4, Tatum 19.0
So again, Larry wins on career averages, including his past-his-prime years.
But now let's do playoffs for their age 24 seasons:
BPM: Larry 7.7, Tatum 5.3
WS/48: Larry 0.20, Tatum 0.17
PER: Larry 21.8, Tatum 22.6
So likely some edge to Larry's age 24 playoff season, underlined by the fact that HIS TEAM WON THE TITLE THAT YEAR.
Performance ------> results
Ability --------> results
Fancy handles and dunks --------> who the **** cares this is the Boston Celtics we're about Banners Only my friend!
But I will say, all of this underlines the take-away: Tatum has a chance to get into the conversation about being on the same level as Larry. He's not there yet. He's trending the right direction -- needs the playoff successes to actually make it happen!
sources for stats: BBallRef
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.htmlhttps://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/tatumja01.htmlPaul Pierce appreciation society.
