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PG: Bulls - Nice Win

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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#101 » by emunney » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:30 pm

Prez wrote:
JimmyTheKid wrote:
theFireBlanket wrote:
He should've had Beasley's spot &/or minutes early on. Why Griffin hasn't done the obvious, while praising him all of camp & preseason? It's mind boggling.


Some coaches believe rookies need to "earn their way," unique skill set be damned. I really, really, really hate that line of thought. Always have. Probably the biggest pet peeve of mine in all of sport. I fully understand it in elementary, middle, and high school. Maybe even D-III or D-II. If its a relative wash in talent, go with the older kids. But at the professional level? Ridiculous. Play your best players. Period.

I could maybe see that coach logic if it was a rookie who needed extra motivation or a fire lit under them to play the right way and do the right things. But Dre is literally the opposite of that lol. Dude’s a winner who plays like a winner, thinks the game like a winner, etc. The only reason you play Beasley over him is if as a coach you’re A) following a promise the front office made to Beasley for whatever reason, or B) you’re dumb and can’t properly evaluate the players you have.


I think there's an option C which is the personality management angle, not only of Beasley but also of other players, who may value his scoring in a way that's misaligned from his actual on-court value. Players also know who *needs* the minutes for their next paycheck and sympathize. This is where Horst has to step in and do what's best for the team.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#102 » by emunney » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:32 pm

BadWolf wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
Baddy Chuck wrote:I had to check if Dame raised his percentages after this game.


Actually not sure who has the higher 3pt% this season out of Giannis and Dame. They'd both be between 20%-30%.


Giannis 25%
Dame 25%
Khris 25%


When Dame gets a jumpshot, look out.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#103 » by Matches Malone » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:36 pm

emunney wrote:
BadWolf wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
Actually not sure who has the higher 3pt% this season out of Giannis and Dame. They'd both be between 20%-30%.


Giannis 25%
Dame 25%
Khris 25%


When Dame gets a jumpshot, look out.


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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#104 » by MickeyDavis » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:39 pm

Dame had arguably his best season last year. And he was terrible last year in November. R-E-L-A-X everyone.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#105 » by crowhead76 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:40 pm

emunney wrote:
BadWolf wrote:
mediocrityrules wrote:
Actually not sure who has the higher 3pt% this season out of Giannis and Dame. They'd both be between 20%-30%.


Giannis 25%
Dame 25%
Khris 25%


When Dame gets a jumpshot, look out.



This is something I keep thinking as well. It would be interesting what the net rating for this team would be at this point if Dame was just shooting at his career averages.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#106 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:41 pm

Dame pull-up 3's:

This season: 5.6 attempts
Last season: 7.4 attempts

Dame pick & roll frequency:

This season: 10.5 possessions (ok, nice) at 0.99 PPP (.....sad face)
Last season: 11.1 possessions on 1.13 PPP

Giannis P&R roll man"

This season: 2.3 possessions (awful) on 0.91 PPP
Last season: 1.8 possessions on 1.03 PPP


I repeat, we're a significantly worse pick and roll offensive team than we were last season after adding Damian **** Lillard to the roster.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#107 » by tydett » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:47 pm

emunney wrote:
Prez wrote:
JimmyTheKid wrote:
Some coaches believe rookies need to "earn their way," unique skill set be damned. I really, really, really hate that line of thought. Always have. Probably the biggest pet peeve of mine in all of sport. I fully understand it in elementary, middle, and high school. Maybe even D-III or D-II. If its a relative wash in talent, go with the older kids. But at the professional level? Ridiculous. Play your best players. Period.

I could maybe see that coach logic if it was a rookie who needed extra motivation or a fire lit under them to play the right way and do the right things. But Dre is literally the opposite of that lol. Dude’s a winner who plays like a winner, thinks the game like a winner, etc. The only reason you play Beasley over him is if as a coach you’re A) following a promise the front office made to Beasley for whatever reason, or B) you’re dumb and can’t properly evaluate the players you have.


I think there's an option C which is the personality management angle, not only of Beasley but also of other players, who may value his scoring in a way that's misaligned from his actual on-court value. Players also know who *needs* the minutes for their next paycheck and sympathize. This is where Horst has to step in and do what's best for the team.


The best part about Beasley being a minimum guy is that if he starts to throw a fit, you give him his walking papers. Definitely understand the need to massage egos but we're not talking about any of our guy that we're stuck with. Our GM was willing to give Boogie a pink slip rather than deal with his attitude - should be the same if Beasley raises an issue over losing minutes to Jackson, who's so much more important to us now.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#108 » by GBPackers47 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:49 pm

greekbuck34 wrote:Based on half the board's basketball opinion success ratio like Giannis being washed after two bad games, holding Dame down because of his ego, being lucky to have signed his contract because he is not a superstar anymore, Marjon's preseason was a fluke etc then by the end of the season Adrian Griffin will be the favourite for coach of the year.
We are blessed!


you summed up my emotions perfectly!
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#109 » by greekbuck34 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 4:52 pm

Is that PPP the Giannis points or the PPP of the play in general because since Giannis is the "only" big threat right now they pack the paint on his catch at all times leaving some times both the corner 3s wide open. That's why Giannis was getting stack in the FT line some times wondering how he has two more men to beat after the PNR. We're generating some great looks out of the PNR especially when Khris is running it since he can make his shots atm. They won't get away with it for long if they keep packing on Giannis on his rolls. Dame will start knocking his pullups or he will find the open men in the corner and he will just use Giannis as the magnet in the paint.
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote: I think that we will do worse than last season and that Giannis is now just a mere all star. All because we switched from Bud to Griffin.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#110 » by steger_3434 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:02 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:Dame had arguably his best season last year. And he was terrible last year in November. R-E-L-A-X everyone.

Gary Payton was an nba all star the same month we traded for him and he did what for us? Rodgers was an mvp and people still wanted to get rid of him saying he was washed the next year. Dame will bounce back. But not everyone is Lebron. The guy has never played with another star. For all we know he only gets his numbers when the offense is dedicated to him and only him. Now that he has to share the ball he’s no longer the dame we know. It took 3 teams before people realize harden isn’t a guy that can mesh with any other stars.


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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#111 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:03 pm

greekbuck34 wrote:Is that PPP the Giannis points or the PPP of the play in general because since Giannis is the "only" big threat right now they pack the paint on his catch at all times leaving some times both the corner 3s wide open. That's why Giannis was getting stack in the FT line some times wondering how he has two more men to beat after the PNR. We're generating some great looks out of the PNR especially when Khris is running it since he can make his shots atm. They won't get away with it for long if they keep packing on Giannis on his rolls. Dame will start knocking his pullups or he will find the open men in the corner and he will just use Giannis as the magnet in the paint.


Brook P&R roll-man:

This season: 1.3 possessions on 1.00 PPP
Last season: 2.9 possessions on 1.32 PPP

Bobby P&R roll-man:

This season: 2.0 possessions on 0.95 PPP
Last season: 1.9 possessions on 1.22 PPP

Like, this type of regression across the board is actually mind-boggling. Benching Beasley and Dame getting back to above 36% on 3's isn't gonna magically fix all of this. These are the kinds of numbers that would make you believe someone is actively sabotaging the offense and consciously avoiding obvious fixes. We're only the 9th best offense right now entirely because of Giannis being unstoppable bulldozing to the rim, and Khris/Dame ISO'ing tough shots into the basket.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#112 » by greekbuck34 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:08 pm

I don't know if it will magically fix all of this but if Dame finds his shot and start making his pullups the defense will have to react on him and the Giannis rolls or the passes to the corner will become way more easier for him and in the end those PNRs will definitely not be under 1.00 anymore.
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote: I think that we will do worse than last season and that Giannis is now just a mere all star. All because we switched from Bud to Griffin.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#113 » by rayallenscalves » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:14 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:
greekbuck34 wrote:Is that PPP the Giannis points or the PPP of the play in general because since Giannis is the "only" big threat right now they pack the paint on his catch at all times leaving some times both the corner 3s wide open. That's why Giannis was getting stack in the FT line some times wondering how he has two more men to beat after the PNR. We're generating some great looks out of the PNR especially when Khris is running it since he can make his shots atm. They won't get away with it for long if they keep packing on Giannis on his rolls. Dame will start knocking his pullups or he will find the open men in the corner and he will just use Giannis as the magnet in the paint.


Brook P&R roll-man:

This season: 1.3 possessions on 1.00 PPP
Last season: 2.9 possessions on 1.32 PPP

Bobby P&R roll-man:

This season: 2.0 possessions on 0.95 PPP
Last season: 1.9 possessions on 1.22 PPP

Like, this type of regression across the board is actually mind-boggling. Benching Beasley and Dame getting back to above 36% on 3's isn't gonna magically fix all of this. These are the kinds of numbers that would make you believe someone is actively sabotaging the offense and consciously avoiding obvious fixes. We're only the 9th best offense right now entirely because of Giannis being unstoppable bulldozing to the rim, and Khris/Dame ISO'ing tough shots into the basket.


I put all of this regression on the coaching, not the players. Have to wonder how this would look if Stotts were still around.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#114 » by PG Graveyard » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:16 pm

Still waiting for us to run that play we ran in the lakers preseason game with dame setting the back screen for Giannis. I think we did run the play last weekend with Pat instead of dame but I’m not 100 percent sure.

Also wouldn’t hurt to run Dame off of the Spain pick and roll a little bit more along with the double high screen. I’m still more concerned about the offense right now. It should be way better with the players we play right now.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#115 » by greekbuck34 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:26 pm

I mean Dame shoots so far:

15% on open 3p shots
36% on wide open 3p shots

and last season shot:

38% on open 3p shots
40% on wide open shots

This bad man is struggling right now and he still shoots 44% on tight shots atm because he is a true killer. The easy "lay ups" for him shots will eventually start falling. We just need to be patient.
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote: I think that we will do worse than last season and that Giannis is now just a mere all star. All because we switched from Bud to Griffin.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#116 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:28 pm

steger_3434 wrote:
MickeyDavis wrote:Dame had arguably his best season last year. And he was terrible last year in November. R-E-L-A-X everyone.

Gary Payton was an nba all star the same month we traded for him and he did what for us? Rodgers was an mvp and people still wanted to get rid of him saying he was washed the next year. Dame will bounce back. But not everyone is Lebron. The guy has never played with another star. For all we know he only gets his numbers when the offense is dedicated to him and only him. Now that he has to share the ball he’s no longer the dame we know. It took 3 teams before people realize harden isn’t a guy that can mesh with any other stars.


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exactly!!! a 33 yo on new turf there is NO GAURANTEE of fricking jack crap nothing until he ACTUALLY gets it going.

he isnt playing well is an understatement. hes not even close to looking like hes assimilating offensively. we know at his best what hes capable of defensively. his energy is low. his body langauage is horrible...at best not a fit for the rest of the guys. we needed a star that could step in a make people better if he hit shots or not and im not sure thats what he is

consider me currently horrified we did this deal right now. you cant make up what we may have set ourselves up with if even a version of this is what he will be for us

i will remain openminded and hopeful but i wont convince myself....just because
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#117 » by BigO » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:30 pm

GBPackers47 wrote:
greekbuck34 wrote:Based on half the board's basketball opinion success ratio like Giannis being washed after two bad games, holding Dame down because of his ego, being lucky to have signed his contract because he is not a superstar anymore, Marjon's preseason was a fluke etc then by the end of the season Adrian Griffin will be the favourite for coach of the year.
We are blessed!


you summed up my emotions perfectly!



I think you inflated the 50% wanted to get rid of Giannis by 49%.

There's a few of them, including one guy who has wanted to get rid of Giannis on a yearly basis. But most are posters are sane, which isn't a high bar.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#118 » by BigO » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:36 pm

emunney wrote:Random notes:

* Bulls waited too long to trade Patrick Williams. He had a good game last night, very Anthony Tolliver-esque.
* On the play where DeRozan had that amazing pass to the corner, Vucevic was complaining that there was a goaltend on Brook's block. Brook practically took it right off his hand. What did he think it looked like?
* Would love to know what was going through Ayo's mind when he tried to throw that pass by MarJon early.
* I don't think we *have* to trade Brook and Pat, but if it's true that Houston would have given us Eason for Brook, hopefully they still will in January (and the salary matching game isn't too obnoxious).



If you trade Brook, what is your plan on defense? I've noted that when Brook was gone for all of the regular season, the Bucks under defensive guru Bud, fell to 15th in defense for the season (and we still had Jrue and Giannis). Part of that was Bud continuing to play the drop defense, but Lopez was valuable.

You don't have to have a great rim protector (we have Giannis), but unlike Boston, which has several interchangeable great defenders, Milwaukee doesn't. What's the plan?
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#119 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:43 pm

theres only one established superstar in this league thats untradeable imo.

discussing peoples sanity because they float deals on a message board is a punk move imo

i think ideas can be explained that way but making it about people? wow
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#120 » by theFireBlanket » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:46 pm

GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:theres only one established superstar in this league thats untradeable imo.

discussing peoples sanity because they float deals on a message board is a punk move imo

i think ideas can be explained that way but making it about people? wow



Giannis. Duhhhhh.
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