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PG: Bulls - Nice Win

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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#121 » by bucksfansince88 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:48 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:Dame pull-up 3's:

This season: 5.6 attempts
Last season: 7.4 attempts

Dame pick & roll frequency:

This season: 10.5 possessions (ok, nice) at 0.99 PPP (.....sad face)
Last season: 11.1 possessions on 1.13 PPP

Giannis P&R roll man"

This season: 2.3 possessions (awful) on 0.91 PPP
Last season: 1.8 possessions on 1.03 PPP


I repeat, we're a significantly worse pick and roll offensive team than we were last season after adding Damian **** Lillard to the roster.


Thats on Griff and his staff, they should be destroying teams with the PnR. its no spacing out there, which has resulted in giannis feeling obliged to barrel through the lane and defenders.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#122 » by GHOSTofSIKMA » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:53 pm

theFireBlanket wrote:
GHOSTofSIKMA wrote:theres only one established superstar in this league thats untradeable imo.

discussing peoples sanity because they float deals on a message board is a punk move imo

i think ideas can be explained that way but making it about people? wow



Giannis. Duhhhhh.


personally for me its joker. but honestly even he would have a price. would i trade the celtics top 5 for him? of course

i have always wondered what we could return in a giannis deal just because its an interesting discussion. im sure id turn down virtually anything that any team would offer but it still would be fun to listen.

there have been times ive felt he was a difficult player to win a championship with. even tho we got one that hasnt changed. difficult doesnt equal impossible.

were on the cusp of either
A. winning one again
B. falling into oblivion for a decade

some of the greatest deals in professional sports history have been when a team knew when to get out and the price was right. i dont want to deal giannis but imo a superstar is capable of pulling a team to 50 wins with far less talent then this team has. i also feel he is in decline. i think there are multiple clues of this regardless of what he does on a nightly basis. im not calling to trade him but just as i have off and on for years....i wonder and may float that thought a couple times a year..... and somebody who would call me insane to my face for saying it is a tougher dude than saying it on a message board.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#123 » by KidA24 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:59 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:
greekbuck34 wrote:Is that PPP the Giannis points or the PPP of the play in general because since Giannis is the "only" big threat right now they pack the paint on his catch at all times leaving some times both the corner 3s wide open. That's why Giannis was getting stack in the FT line some times wondering how he has two more men to beat after the PNR. We're generating some great looks out of the PNR especially when Khris is running it since he can make his shots atm. They won't get away with it for long if they keep packing on Giannis on his rolls. Dame will start knocking his pullups or he will find the open men in the corner and he will just use Giannis as the magnet in the paint.


Brook P&R roll-man:

This season: 1.3 possessions on 1.00 PPP
Last season: 2.9 possessions on 1.32 PPP

Bobby P&R roll-man:

This season: 2.0 possessions on 0.95 PPP
Last season: 1.9 possessions on 1.22 PPP

Like, this type of regression across the board is actually mind-boggling. Benching Beasley and Dame getting back to above 36% on 3's isn't gonna magically fix all of this. These are the kinds of numbers that would make you believe someone is actively sabotaging the offense and consciously avoiding obvious fixes. We're only the 9th best offense right now entirely because of Giannis being unstoppable bulldozing to the rim, and Khris/Dame ISO'ing tough shots into the basket.


It's 80% awful positioning and spacing.

Guys are simply 5 feet from where they should be almost every time the Bucks go into the pick and roll, which, in the NBA is the difference between things being easy and help getting there easily every time.

If he's not involved, Giannis is always too damn close to the ball allowing his guy to stand on the corner of the lane and shut everything down.

When Giannis is the ball handler, guys aren't staying in the corners, because they never get the ball, so they are crashing the boards prematurely.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#124 » by Bmaasse » Tue Nov 14, 2023 5:59 pm

steger_3434 wrote:
MickeyDavis wrote:Dame had arguably his best season last year. And he was terrible last year in November. R-E-L-A-X everyone.

Gary Payton was an nba all star the same month we traded for him and he did what for us? Rodgers was an mvp and people still wanted to get rid of him saying he was washed the next year. Dame will bounce back. But not everyone is Lebron. The guy has never played with another star. For all we know he only gets his numbers when the offense is dedicated to him and only him. Now that he has to share the ball he’s no longer the dame we know. It took 3 teams before people realize harden isn’t a guy that can mesh with any other stars.


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Gary Payton and Sam Cassell were somewhat redundant. That was just a bad fit, this is different. Even if Dame gives us 75% of the production that he generated last season, we will be ok.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#125 » by Siefer » Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:12 pm

The spacing on a lot of possessions has been truly bizarre. Like, guys running into each other levels of weird.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#126 » by Prez » Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:19 pm

It might not be Scariolo, but I’d be surprised if Horst isn’t still out there looking for someone who can take on Stotts’ role as lead offensive assistant. I think they’re aware they can’t rely on Griffin (or Prunty lol) offensively. I’m just not sure which other options are out there. D’Antoni’s an “advisor” for the Pelicans, wonder what he’d say if we threw a bunch of money at him to be Stotts 2.0. Or I wonder if they’re waiting to see if Ty Lue gets fired, and see if we can steal him as an assistant.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#127 » by MartyConlonOnTheRun » Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:33 pm

MickeyDavis wrote:Before the season it was pointed out that Dame always starts slow. And most here expected a slow start to get integrated with Giannis, a new coach and limited Khris. And that's exactly what's happening ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I expected them to average 60 PPG combined on 60+%TS while starting off atleast 8-2 :dontknow: .....But I'm not exactly a top-tier basketball mind either. :D
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#128 » by Ron Swanson » Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:36 pm

People always wrongly assume with coaching that simplistic schemes is evidence of some lack of intelligent design and ability to "adjust", when in reality, it's almost always these dudes (Jason Kidd says hi) that try and overcomplicate **** schematically that end up being the dumb head coaches. A heavy ball pressure defense with this level of activity (trapping, hard doubles, weak side knowing when to rotate) can be incredibly useful in certain situations, but using it as your base scheme? It's just "stupid chaos".

Nobody ever gave enough credit to Bud for completely maximizing our lack of offensive talent around Giannis, because people got too comfortably stuck in their mockery and platitudes of "blue squares" and "play random" without realizing that you don't always have to be reinventing the wheel depending on your personnel.

With Griffin it looks like a double whammy of bad. His defensive scheme gives up loads of open-3's due to constant overhelping at the theoretical expense of forcing the opposing team into turnovers, but if there's even the slightest hesitation or breakdown, it often leads to a layup line at the rim. Whereas on offense, there isn't any visible scheme or structure at all. It's just guys out there free-lancing, occasionally calling for a pick, while everyone just kinda floats around on the perimeter and occasionally crashes the boards (then leading to way too many transition points). A more simplistic defensive scheme and getting someone with a brain on how to run NBA offense in 2023 would have us with probably a Top-5 net-rating right now.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#129 » by crowhead76 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:58 pm

Prez wrote:It might not be Scariolo, but I’d be surprised if Horst isn’t still out there looking for someone who can take on Stotts’ role as lead offensive assistant. I think they’re aware they can’t rely on Griffin (or Prunty lol) offensively. I’m just not sure which other options are out there. D’Antoni’s an “advisor” for the Pelicans, wonder what he’d say if we threw a bunch of money at him to be Stotts 2.0. Or I wonder if they’re waiting to see if Ty Lue gets fired, and see if we can steal him as an assistant.



Dave Joerger is currently a consultant for Cleveland, I think he would be a decent target as well.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#130 » by Perishable517 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:15 pm

chonestown wrote:
Turk Nowitzki wrote:Horst is gonna have to handle Malik Beasley like he did when he thought Rodney Hood and Semi Ojeleye could be rotation players for us. Just admit failure and get him out of here by the deadline.


This is a good comp.

Jax is our Bobby Gross.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#131 » by Perishable517 » Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:19 pm

JimmyTheKid wrote:
soxperry wrote:Dre has potential to be a real needle mover for us. He needs to get as many minutes as possible to get him ready for the playoffs.


Lets all keep in mind that Griffin had no plan to play AJJ more than a couple minutes/garbage time had Jae Crowder not gotten hurt. Better late than never I guess though.
He just needs to take advantage of this opportunity.

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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#132 » by MickeyDavis » Tue Nov 14, 2023 8:00 pm

Perishable517 wrote:
JimmyTheKid wrote:
soxperry wrote:Dre has potential to be a real needle mover for us. He needs to get as many minutes as possible to get him ready for the playoffs.


Lets all keep in mind that Griffin had no plan to play AJJ more than a couple minutes/garbage time had Jae Crowder not gotten hurt. Better late than never I guess though.
He just needs to take advantage of this opportunity.

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Not an AG fan but I don't consider 10 games into the rookie season of a second round pick to be "late". :dontknow:
I'm against picketing but I don't know how to show it.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#133 » by emunney » Tue Nov 14, 2023 9:17 pm

BigO wrote:
emunney wrote:Random notes:

* Bulls waited too long to trade Patrick Williams. He had a good game last night, very Anthony Tolliver-esque.
* On the play where DeRozan had that amazing pass to the corner, Vucevic was complaining that there was a goaltend on Brook's block. Brook practically took it right off his hand. What did he think it looked like?
* Would love to know what was going through Ayo's mind when he tried to throw that pass by MarJon early.
* I don't think we *have* to trade Brook and Pat, but if it's true that Houston would have given us Eason for Brook, hopefully they still will in January (and the salary matching game isn't too obnoxious).



If you trade Brook, what is your plan on defense? I've noted that when Brook was gone for all of the regular season, the Bucks under defensive guru Bud, fell to 15th in defense for the season (and we still had Jrue and Giannis). Part of that was Bud continuing to play the drop defense, but Lopez was valuable.

You don't have to have a great rim protector (we have Giannis), but unlike Boston, which has several interchangeable great defenders, Milwaukee doesn't. What's the plan?


We kept the exact same base defense that we built around Brook. Imagine if we still had Jevon Carter and built our offense around Dame's shot creation at point, but Dame got hurt and we tried to do the same thing with Jevon. It wouldn't work out.

The overall lack of rim protection and size on the roster meant not only it was easier to score inside, but it was easier to get second chances. We started the season with Serge and Semi as our backup bigs. Last NBA season for both of them. It's difficult to overstate how badly it worked to try to replace PJ's role with Semi.

As for this year, I think we have to start from the understanding that Brook is almost useless for this team, because not only do you have to drop him, you have to have guys on the ball who refuse to be screened. If we're going to drop deep, you can't have Dame or Beasley or even MarJon hitting the screen like it's flypaper. We've got one guy who does it and he's our 11th man (10th with injuries). That's not enough in any scheme, realistically, but it's a huge problem if there's nobody else near the screen. And that's the *good* way to use Brook. So if you do keep him, not only do you have to drop him, you have to go out and get other players who don't die on screens (again: do this either way).

If I did trade Brook and I was coaching the Bucks, I still wouldn't be as consistently aggressive. I would ice almost everything on the outside. I would still want to play a fair amount of drop, but it'd be a much shallower drop, like you see from Looney, because the guy I have back there is going to be able to move his feet. I'm going to switch, I'm going to sprinkle in some zone looks. I'm going to get these guys talking to each other on every play. I'll selectively blitz weaker ball-handlers/decision makers. I'd still weak the **** out of Harden. Nothing fancy.

I don't know, man. The world would be my oyster. I would love the job but hate the fame. Am I hired or what?
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#134 » by BigO » Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:21 pm

emunney wrote:
BigO wrote:
emunney wrote:Random notes:

* Bulls waited too long to trade Patrick Williams. He had a good game last night, very Anthony Tolliver-esque.
* On the play where DeRozan had that amazing pass to the corner, Vucevic was complaining that there was a goaltend on Brook's block. Brook practically took it right off his hand. What did he think it looked like?
* Would love to know what was going through Ayo's mind when he tried to throw that pass by MarJon early.
* I don't think we *have* to trade Brook and Pat, but if it's true that Houston would have given us Eason for Brook, hopefully they still will in January (and the salary matching game isn't too obnoxious).



If you trade Brook, what is your plan on defense? I've noted that when Brook was gone for all of the regular season, the Bucks under defensive guru Bud, fell to 15th in defense for the season (and we still had Jrue and Giannis). Part of that was Bud continuing to play the drop defense, but Lopez was valuable.

You don't have to have a great rim protector (we have Giannis), but unlike Boston, which has several interchangeable great defenders, Milwaukee doesn't. What's the plan?


We kept the exact same base defense that we built around Brook. Imagine if we still had Jevon Carter and built our offense around Dame's shot creation at point, but Dame got hurt and we tried to do the same thing with Jevon. It wouldn't work out.

The overall lack of rim protection and size on the roster meant not only it was easier to score inside, but it was easier to get second chances. We started the season with Serge and Semi as our backup bigs. Last NBA season for both of them. It's difficult to overstate how badly it worked to try to replace PJ's role with Semi.

As for this year, I think we have to start from the understanding that Brook is almost useless for this team, because not only do you have to drop him, you have to have guys on the ball who refuse to be screened. If we're going to drop deep, you can't have Dame or Beasley or even MarJon hitting the screen like it's flypaper. We've got one guy who does it and he's our 11th man (10th with injuries). That's not enough in any scheme, realistically, but it's a huge problem if there's nobody else near the screen. And that's the *good* way to use Brook. So if you do keep him, not only do you have to drop him, you have to go out and get other players who don't die on screens (again: do this either way).

If I did trade Brook and I was coaching the Bucks, I still wouldn't be as consistently aggressive. I would ice almost everything on the outside. I would still want to play a fair amount of drop, but it'd be a much shallower drop, like you see from Looney, because the guy I have back there is going to be able to move his feet. I'm going to switch, I'm going to sprinkle in some zone looks. I'm going to get these guys talking to each other on every play. I'll selectively blitz weaker ball-handlers/decision makers. I'd still weak the **** out of Harden. Nothing fancy.

I don't know, man. The world would be my oyster. I would love the job but hate the fame. Am I hired or what?


Well, which job would you want, coach or GM? It seems as though you want both. I'll hire you as coach now.

I agree with moving to multiple defensive schemes, but the problem is your best defensive lineup without Brook is what? AJJ, Giannis, and who else? You can't cover up that lack of talent no matter what scheme you run.

Boston has five starters who can play really good defense (maybe Porzingis is the weak link) AND who can really shoot (Jrue as the wink link).

I like the discussion, but I think it's virtually 100% that Brook stays. So a decision has to be made on what is the biggest weakness-offense of defense. Right now I think it's defense, so AJJ has to be given a big chance and a coaching change after another 15 games has to be in consideration.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#135 » by Bmaasse » Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:39 pm

BigO wrote:
emunney wrote:
BigO wrote:[/b]

If you trade Brook, what is your plan on defense? I've noted that when Brook was gone for all of the regular season, the Bucks under defensive guru Bud, fell to 15th in defense for the season (and we still had Jrue and Giannis). Part of that was Bud continuing to play the drop defense, but Lopez was valuable.

You don't have to have a great rim protector (we have Giannis), but unlike Boston, which has several interchangeable great defenders, Milwaukee doesn't. What's the plan?


We kept the exact same base defense that we built around Brook. Imagine if we still had Jevon Carter and built our offense around Dame's shot creation at point, but Dame got hurt and we tried to do the same thing with Jevon. It wouldn't work out.

The overall lack of rim protection and size on the roster meant not only it was easier to score inside, but it was easier to get second chances. We started the season with Serge and Semi as our backup bigs. Last NBA season for both of them. It's difficult to overstate how badly it worked to try to replace PJ's role with Semi.

As for this year, I think we have to start from the understanding that Brook is almost useless for this team, because not only do you have to drop him, you have to have guys on the ball who refuse to be screened. If we're going to drop deep, you can't have Dame or Beasley or even MarJon hitting the screen like it's flypaper. We've got one guy who does it and he's our 11th man (10th with injuries). That's not enough in any scheme, realistically, but it's a huge problem if there's nobody else near the screen. And that's the *good* way to use Brook. So if you do keep him, not only do you have to drop him, you have to go out and get other players who don't die on screens (again: do this either way).

If I did trade Brook and I was coaching the Bucks, I still wouldn't be as consistently aggressive. I would ice almost everything on the outside. I would still want to play a fair amount of drop, but it'd be a much shallower drop, like you see from Looney, because the guy I have back there is going to be able to move his feet. I'm going to switch, I'm going to sprinkle in some zone looks. I'm going to get these guys talking to each other on every play. I'll selectively blitz weaker ball-handlers/decision makers. I'd still weak the **** out of Harden. Nothing fancy.

I don't know, man. The world would be my oyster. I would love the job but hate the fame. Am I hired or what?


Well, which job would you want, coach or GM? It seems as though you want both. I'll hire you as coach now.

I agree with moving to multiple defensive schemes, but the problem is your best defensive lineup without Brook is what? AJJ, Giannis, and who else? You can't cover up that lack of talent no matter what scheme you run.

Boston has five starters who can play really good defense (maybe Porzingis is the weak link) AND who can really shoot (Jrue as the wink link).

I like the discussion, but I think it's virtually 100% that Brook stays. So a decision has to be made on what is the biggest weakness-offense of defense. Right now I think it's defense, so AJJ has to be given a big chance and a coaching change after another 15 games has to be in consideration.


Do you guys honestly believe a coaching change will happen this season?

We would have to have double digit losing streak for that to be even considered, and we have too much talent for that to happen. AG is here for at least this season unless we have an epic collapse and imo we're not close to that point yet.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#136 » by FrieAaron » Tue Nov 14, 2023 11:41 pm

I tend to agree. Even if this team looks exactly the same 41 games in I don't think we're making a coaching change this season. Just have to hope AG figures it out and we didn't fumble it as badly as it looks right now.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#137 » by tedbrogen » Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:10 am

bucksfansince88 wrote:
Ron Swanson wrote:Dame pull-up 3's:

This season: 5.6 attempts
Last season: 7.4 attempts

Dame pick & roll frequency:

This season: 10.5 possessions (ok, nice) at 0.99 PPP (.....sad face)
Last season: 11.1 possessions on 1.13 PPP

Giannis P&R roll man"

This season: 2.3 possessions (awful) on 0.91 PPP
Last season: 1.8 possessions on 1.03 PPP


I repeat, we're a significantly worse pick and roll offensive team than we were last season after adding Damian **** Lillard to the roster.


Thats on Griff and his staff, they should be destroying teams with the PnR. its no spacing out there, which has resulted in giannis feeling obliged to barrel through the lane and defenders.


JJ pointed this out on his pod. He doesn’t understand what the Bucks are trying to do spacing-wise.

It’s why the offense only looks good when Giannis does his attack mode or Midds/Dame ISO into shots they want or Bobby backs down a smaller guy or AJJ sets a back screen while the ball is rotating to open someone up. Anything positive created on the court is due to the talent level of the players. The struggles are due to the legitimate idiot who is running things with no actual systems on offense or defense. The struggles will continue no matter the personnel until AG is gone or the season ends in the playin.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#138 » by tedbrogen » Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:12 am

Siefer wrote:The spacing on a lot of possessions has been truly bizarre. Like, guys running into each other levels of weird.


Almost like the coach is a complete moron.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#139 » by tedbrogen » Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:14 am

Ron Swanson wrote:People always wrongly assume with coaching that simplistic schemes is evidence of some lack of intelligent design and ability to "adjust", when in reality, it's almost always these dudes (Jason Kidd says hi) that try and overcomplicate **** schematically that end up being the dumb head coaches. A heavy ball pressure defense with this level of activity (trapping, hard doubles, weak side knowing when to rotate) can be incredibly useful in certain situations, but using it as your base scheme? It's just "stupid chaos".

Nobody ever gave enough credit to Bud for completely maximizing our lack of offensive talent around Giannis, because people got too comfortably stuck in their mockery and platitudes of "blue squares" and "play random" without realizing that you don't always have to be reinventing the wheel depending on your personnel.

With Griffin it looks like a double whammy of bad. His defensive scheme gives up loads of open-3's due to constant overhelping at the theoretical expense of forcing the opposing team into turnovers, but if there's even the slightest hesitation or breakdown, it often leads to a layup line at the rim. Whereas on offense, there isn't any visible scheme or structure at all. It's just guys out there free-lancing, occasionally calling for a pick, while everyone just kinda floats around on the perimeter and occasionally crashes the boards (then leading to way too many transition points). A more simplistic defensive scheme and getting someone with a brain on how to run NBA offense in 2023 would have us with probably a Top-5 net-rating right now.


Will you be the Bucks head coach? You might not have a PhD but you seem to understand more about how to not F up a super talented team than that dick head does.
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Re: PG: Bulls - Nice Win 

Post#140 » by tedbrogen » Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:17 am

Bmaasse wrote:
BigO wrote:
emunney wrote:
We kept the exact same base defense that we built around Brook. Imagine if we still had Jevon Carter and built our offense around Dame's shot creation at point, but Dame got hurt and we tried to do the same thing with Jevon. It wouldn't work out.

The overall lack of rim protection and size on the roster meant not only it was easier to score inside, but it was easier to get second chances. We started the season with Serge and Semi as our backup bigs. Last NBA season for both of them. It's difficult to overstate how badly it worked to try to replace PJ's role with Semi.

As for this year, I think we have to start from the understanding that Brook is almost useless for this team, because not only do you have to drop him, you have to have guys on the ball who refuse to be screened. If we're going to drop deep, you can't have Dame or Beasley or even MarJon hitting the screen like it's flypaper. We've got one guy who does it and he's our 11th man (10th with injuries). That's not enough in any scheme, realistically, but it's a huge problem if there's nobody else near the screen. And that's the *good* way to use Brook. So if you do keep him, not only do you have to drop him, you have to go out and get other players who don't die on screens (again: do this either way).

If I did trade Brook and I was coaching the Bucks, I still wouldn't be as consistently aggressive. I would ice almost everything on the outside. I would still want to play a fair amount of drop, but it'd be a much shallower drop, like you see from Looney, because the guy I have back there is going to be able to move his feet. I'm going to switch, I'm going to sprinkle in some zone looks. I'm going to get these guys talking to each other on every play. I'll selectively blitz weaker ball-handlers/decision makers. I'd still weak the **** out of Harden. Nothing fancy.

I don't know, man. The world would be my oyster. I would love the job but hate the fame. Am I hired or what?


Well, which job would you want, coach or GM? It seems as though you want both. I'll hire you as coach now.

I agree with moving to multiple defensive schemes, but the problem is your best defensive lineup without Brook is what? AJJ, Giannis, and who else? You can't cover up that lack of talent no matter what scheme you run.

Boston has five starters who can play really good defense (maybe Porzingis is the weak link) AND who can really shoot (Jrue as the wink link).

I like the discussion, but I think it's virtually 100% that Brook stays. So a decision has to be made on what is the biggest weakness-offense of defense. Right now I think it's defense, so AJJ has to be given a big chance and a coaching change after another 15 games has to be in consideration.


Do you guys honestly believe a coaching change will happen this season?

We would have to have double digit losing streak for that to be even considered, and we have too much talent for that to happen. AG is here for at least this season unless we have an epic collapse and imo we're not close to that point yet.


Depends on how bad Boston wrecks them. 50 point loss and AG looking clueless puts a ton of pressure on him.

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