2023-2024 Regular Season Game 10/In-Season Tournament Game 1: Orlando Magic (5-4) at Brooklyn Nets (5-5) - 7:30pm

[eyriq]

I couldn’t agree with this more.

It’s not impatience that’s causing people like myself to want the Magic to make consolidation trades. I know there’s not a trade out there that can make the Magic into a title contender *right now*, but no one is realistically suggesting that either.

It’s not even a desire to *just* be in the playoffs either. That’s not a good enough outcome.

Why people are stumping so hard for trades is because there’s an understanding what’s coming in the future in terms of the currently very clean cap sheet becoming not so clean in relatively short order.

The Magic have a TON of money to spend this offseason and on paper there isn’t a whole lot going to be out there to spend it on. So the Houston option, spending big on unrestricted free agents like FVV and Brooks, doesn’t seem like an super viable or appealing option for the Magic.

So what does that leave? Two paths…

Path No. 1 is that they opt to keep playing the “give the incumbent veterans like Fultz and Gary big year 1 salaries with a team option on year 2 just like they did with Ingles and Moritz and just kick the can down the road on actually adding real talent again.

Path No. 2 is they actually cash in some of their chips (expirings, picks, swaps, etc) for some established veterans in their primes who can assume big minute roles either as starters or rotation players and are better than the guys currently filling those roles.

Guys who can raise your floor while still having Paolo, Franz, Suggs, Black and potentially Jett’s long-term development to determine where your overall ceiling ends up.

We should be at the point where there is a clear directive to build around Paolo and Franz. A novel thought, for me at least, is that I think with that clarity comes a prioritisation of their development. This means that the development of Suggs, Black, and Jett takes a back seat.

There is also a clear priority to maximize the future potential of a build around Paolo and Franz. This means maximizing the talent around them when it matters most, 4 seasons from now. This is where prioritizing the development of Suggs, Black, and Jett gets increased importance.

So, two goals.

1. Maximize the development of Paolo and Franz in the near-term.
2. Maximize the talent around them 4 years from now.

I think a hybrid win-now, slowly develop lotto talent, maintain flexibility position makes sense in this context.

Instead of cashing in assets for a consolidation trade now, I think I'd rather exchange assets that are about to expire for future assets that we can cash in 3 to 4 years from now. Kicking the can down the road kind of makes sense.

Ok...don't disagree, but how do you "develop" Paolo & Franz without upgrading the talent around them to better fit their games?
-For example, I get having no urgency to rush Jett in...but, ultimately, their development boils down to a personnel thing, IMO.
-Also, say we acquire Quickley, Simons, or Brogdon for appx $25m/yr for expirings & picks...I don't see how that is, in any way, a setback or reprioritization of the Big 2...It would only help their 'development' (which is already "in-game" experience, not abstract).

*We've got a lot of good players on good deals but we're 100% at the point where team construction > keeping good guys. Not singling them out as guys I don't want, but Cole, WCJ, Fultz, M. Wagner might best be sacrificed for better fitting guys - if needed. It would take a BIG upgrade to get me to consider Suggs or Black, because I feel they ARE/WILL BE great fits soon - but wouldn't rule it out. Nobody needs to individually defend those guys - I like them all. Just making a point about what we need and how we're presently more deep than good.

I don't know, tbh. We definitely need a shooter in the backcourt, now. The answer isn't Black or Suggs, and it isn't Jett either. How much this shooter would help the development of Paolo and Franz is up for debate, but I don't see how it hurts. The resources used to acquire it and the blocker of PT for Suggs, Black, and Jett need to be factored into the cost benefit analysis.

I think we try to see what the trade waters are for Fultz and Harris and grab a starting guard that can shoot.

[IllMagic04]

We are a defensive basketball team. We are not built to win shootouts. In an 82 game season random nights are gonna happen where the other team just cant miss. We are not going to win those games. Our offense is going to have long scoring droughts. Good offenses have those so we are surely going to have alot of then. We get through it with suffocating defense but when the other team is raining 3s we just gonna lose. The turnovers were a big issue for sure. It felt like evertime Cole turned it over it lead to a bucket ( I know it wasn’t just Cole). However as bad as we played we were right in striking distance till that barrage of 3s came. Theres no need to get upset with these kinda losses as long as the roster is constructed this way.

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[Residual-Heat]

We need a veteran PG that can shoot the 3.

then we will need a better center than Wcj.
then a better sixth man than anthony and totally better and different bench.
then a better coach than mosley.
at some point even a better front office and why not,a new ownership.

I dont know what youre trying to say here. Do you disagree that we need a vet PG that can shoot?

[bigdogdylan5]

We are a defensive basketball team. We are not built to win shootouts. In an 82 game season random nights are gonna happen where the other team just cant miss. We are not going to win those games. Our offense is going to have long scoring droughts. Good offenses have those so we are surely going to have alot of then. We get through it with suffocating defense but when the other team is raining 3s we just gonna lose. The turnovers were a big issue for sure. It felt like evertime Cole turned it over it lead to a bucket ( I know it wasn’t just Cole). However as bad as we played we were right in striking distance till that barrage of 3s came. Theres no need to get upset with these kinda losses as long as the roster is constructed this way.

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Yea I think there is a difference between being upset and analyzing. Asking a young team to be in the top 10 of turnovers and that is the path to success is a challenging one. I am not concerned too much but I think the people who are got their expectations way to high. If we can be top 10 defense and maybe finish the season in like the 15-20th in turnovers I call this season a massive success and I bet the team would mean we at least got the 10th seed. Three point shooting is a huge problem but I don’t think they will attempt to work on that till the offseason. It’s not that they don’t realize it but I believe they are wanting to make reasonable development steps. Even if we get three point shooting if the turnovers are still high and defense isn’t as good we will have problems when we start contending. That is clearly the focus this year.

[zaymon]

Nothing suprising.
We have no elite ball handler- lots of turnovers.
We have no elite shooters- below average shooting.
We have inexperienced coach- we are outcoached in most games.

Black and Suggs seem to thrive in similar role. Defensive wings who connect others on offense but cant be lead creators. Which one will improve his shooting will propably earn starting spot in the future.

[IllMagic04]

We are a defensive basketball team. We are not built to win shootouts. In an 82 game season random nights are gonna happen where the other team just cant miss. We are not going to win those games. Our offense is going to have long scoring droughts. Good offenses have those so we are surely going to have alot of then. We get through it with suffocating defense but when the other team is raining 3s we just gonna lose. The turnovers were a big issue for sure. It felt like evertime Cole turned it over it lead to a bucket ( I know it wasn’t just Cole). However as bad as we played we were right in striking distance till that barrage of 3s came. Theres no need to get upset with these kinda losses as long as the roster is constructed this way.

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Yea I think there is a difference between being upset and analyzing. Asking a young team to be in the top 10 of turnovers and that is the path to success is a challenging one. I am not concerned too much but I think the people who are got their expectations way to high. If we can be top 10 defense and maybe finish the season in like the 15-20th in turnovers I call this season a massive success and I bet the team would mean we at least got the 10th seed. Three point shooting is a huge problem but I don’t think they will attempt to work on that till the offseason. It’s not that they don’t realize it but I believe they are wanting to make reasonable development steps. Even if we get three point shooting if the turnovers are still high and defense isn’t as good we will have problems when we start contending. That is clearly the focus this year.

Oh I agree. The turnovers are an issue. I just dont think anyone would care if we'd won the game. And we very much could have won the game despite the turnovers. The Nets put on a nice display of turnovers themselves. The game was lost cause we couldn't score in the 4th and they went crazy in the 4th. If the Nets have a normal scoring 4th quarter, then we are right there. It just wasn't our night so I give the Nets there props and move on. I still very much believe in this teams defense and the turnover issue hopefully improves when Fultz comes back and the season goes on.

[basketballRob]

Just terrible coaching. They plan practices the day before b2b's and then wake them up early to do shootarounds. I don't think our current coaching staff understands players' legs at all. There has to be a reason for our horrific record in b2bs.

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Ok man I think you have gotten your point across with the practice on Monday. We don’t know how intense it was. You can have a light practice that’s more than a walkthrough. This loss was not because we were tired it’s because we can’t break a zone by shooting and the live ball turnovers were nuts last night (mostly by Cole). Our wins this year have had a disturbing amount of reliance on Cole and/or Mo going nuts. When they had bad games it all fell apart. With our total disregard for shooting it means we have to play perfect from a turnover and defensive perspective that is a lot of pressure for a young team.

Wouldn't have been better to have a full practice on Sunday and then a day off to recuperate? SVG would never have a practiced before or after a b2b. Clifford more than likely had the same policy.

Something is going on with the flat performances in b2bs. They've been historically bad. So yes, I blame the coaches.

They just did the same thing in LA and lost 2 games. They had 2 days after the Portland game and opted to practice the day before the b2b.

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[pepe1991]

I would argue that we don't have personell to hoist 46 three point attemps while being 3rd worst team in a league in accuracy from that range.

I saw some people pointed out that we "only lost 3 point battle by 9 points, while losing by 20". This is innacurate take.
We took 7 threes MORE and still got outscored by 9 points from 3 point line. This was especially problematic in 4th quater.
Nets went 7-10, Magic 2-12. (Albet some of this was in garbage time).

And while our turnovers were bad, we didn't lost game because of them, Nets only scored 16 points off turnovers. (we scored 27)

So how did we lost?

Well, points in paint were ugly. 52 points allowed.

We aren't that good of defensive team without Wendell. Matter of fact, since Jazz game , in past 4 games our defensive rating is -18th.

That's why i pointed out how bad Isaac looked while defending Cs. Mortiz is net negative defender, that's given, Goga can't keep up with fast pace. Imo, we will be okey vs Bulls because they play slow, i don't think our defense will hold that well against Pacers or Nuggets/Celtics who attack from multiple angles and can easly exploit our lack of rim protection. (and playing Isaac over 15 mpg still scares me )

[Skybox]

Nothing suprising.
We have no elite ball handler- lots of turnovers.
We have no elite shooters- below average shooting.
We have inexperienced coach- we are outcoached in most games.

Black and Suggs seem to thrive in similar role. Defensive wings who connect others on offense but cant be lead creators. Which one will improve his shooting will propably earn starting spot in the future.

That's a concern to me...It's easy to single out Fultz, given his limitations, reasons for them, and contract situation. Black (at least projects) to do (nearly) everything Fultz does but bigger, younger, better defender, better rebounder, pick setter and (projects to) draws fouls.

Black's emergence could also create a problem (opportunity?) with him and Suggs' incompatibility. Both are looking like they might be average 3pt shooters but I'm not counting on it without a much larger sample size. I don't think wave after wave of defenders takes you very far without offense. Hopefully, the offensive firepower is coming along for one or both - both very young and seem to be earnest hard workers (which means nothing by itself). A smothering defensive backcourt is an awesome vision - on one end of the floor, but very limiting overall.

Every team needs them, but you can't roll out a team of "glue guys".

It's nice to have so much overlapping talent to choose from and cover injuries, etc...but's it not a realistic way to build a complete team when there are other glaring needs and when the extensions start rolling in. Anyway, we can build around them for now, but it's something to keep an eye on.

[pepe1991]

Black friday is near and it's time to buy nba 2k and play rebuild with Bulls

No ,really, it's time for them to blow it up. That team died with Lonzo's career.

[JoshuaPotter]

Nothing suprising.
We have no elite ball handler- lots of turnovers.
We have no elite shooters- below average shooting.
We have inexperienced coach- we are outcoached in most games.

Black and Suggs seem to thrive in similar role. Defensive wings who connect others on offense but cant be lead creators. Which one will improve his shooting will propably earn starting spot in the future.

That's a concern to me...It's easy to single out Fultz, given his limitations, reasons for them, and contract situation. Black (at least projects) to do (nearly) everything Fultz does but bigger, younger, better defender, better rebounder, pick setter and (projects to) draws fouls.

Black's emergence could also create a problem (opportunity?) with him and Suggs' incompatibility. Both are looking like they might be average 3pt shooters but I'm not counting on it without a much larger sample size. I don't think wave after wave of defenders takes you very far without offense. Hopefully, the offensive firepower is coming along for one or both - both very young and seem to be earnest hard workers (which means nothing by itself). A smothering defensive backcourt is an awesome vision - on one end of the floor, but very limiting overall.

Every team needs them, but you can't roll out a team of "glue guys".

It's nice to have so much overlapping talent to choose from and cover injuries, etc...but's it not a realistic way to build a complete team when there are other glaring needs and when the extensions start rolling in. Anyway, we can build around them for now, but it's something to keep an eye on.

On the other hand.

Suggs is in year 3, Black is in month 2.

I am willing to relax and see what happens. It may look ugly even most games. But how ironic is it that we have found someone in month 2 that almost makes us forget who our starting PG is should speak volumes.

[Skybox]

Black friday is near and it's time to buy nba 2k and play rebuild with Bulls

No ,really, it's time for them to blow it up. That team died with Lonzo's career.

That's not mentioned enough...they were really good with Lonzo running things.

Lonzo might be a good model for Black...Lonzo became a really good shooter but that wasn't his profile. Very similar to Jason Kidd...big, good D, ultra high BBIQ (above all else), elite vision & passing - shooting came later

[basketballRob]

Orlando in b2bs, and it's been like this during the whole time we've had this coaching staff. I believe Mosely is around 3-25 in b2bs.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/magic-record-in-back-to-back-games-2023

Just prior to hiring Mosely.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/magic-record-in-back-to-back-games-2021

You can't be an elite team until you have a winning record in b2bs.

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[KillMonger]

i'm wondering why didn't we just go old school when we have a lead? when we get a lead just put the whole team in jail....feed paolo the ball and just attack....they have to foul or double....on the other hand it comes back to the shooting problem....we're kicking it out to at best, inconsistent shooters

[eyriq]

I think Mosley deserves some criticism for this performance. This was a game you should approach as if it was a playoff game. We were woefully unprepared and got blown out. Bad look for Mosley.

[ORLMagicGirl15]

I think for my sanity, I'm just going to enjoy this team without expectation. I can't with the emotional rollercoaster of this team.

[ibraheim718]

Ownership and the front office has made it loud and clear what path they are taking. They decided to tear it down and rebuild the team. That's what they're doing.. and that plan is going way better than expected. They aren't going to consolidate young players for vets to "win now" because they aren't ready to "win now". My suggestion is to enjoy the experience of watching young players actualizing their potential and become a group that learns how to win together.

The only trade I can see them making is moving Fultz or Harris. That kind of trade isn't going to set the world on fire but those two players clearly don't fit the time line. If by year 5 of the rebuild which is two more seasons they aren't contending then they'll reassess. But this group is going to get a chance to show what they're made of and it isn't going to be game to game. They'll get 5 years together.

[OrlChamps2030]

Ownership and the front office has made it loud and clear what path they are taking. They decided to tear it down and rebuild the team. That's what they're doing.. and that plan is going way better than expected. They aren't going to consolidate young players for vets to "win now" because they aren't ready to "win now". My suggestion is to enjoy the experience of watching young players actualizing their potential and become a group that learns how to win together.

The only trade I can see them making is moving Fultz or Harris. That kind of trade isn't going to set the world on fire but those two players clearly don't fit the time line. If by year 5 of the rebuild which is two more seasons they aren't contending then they'll reassess. But this group is going to get a chance to show what they're made of and it isn't going to be game to game. They'll get 5 years together.

Is there a single poster in this thread that wants to “consolidate young players for vets to win now”?

Most are suggesting some combination of loose parts (Fultz, Harris, Okeke, Nuggets pick, protected ORL pick) for a stop-gap PG or someone who can provide shooting and/or can initiate offense against a set defense.

Wanting a PG or a backcourt offensive threat isn’t only to win now IMO it also helps with the development of our core pieces (Paolo and Franz). There are going to be a lot of painful nights because of this backcourt.

It’s been mentioned but FVV would have been perfect for this team

[JojoSlimbiid]

Does every loss need to be some existential crisis that we need to dedicate dozens of paragraphs wondering what is the meaning of life? No team goes 82-0 so what is the point of every loss needing to be this devastating inflection point where we need to make these full scope decisions on the entirety of the future. Relax

[ibraheim718]

Ownership and the front office has made it loud and clear what path they are taking. They decided to tear it down and rebuild the team. That's what they're doing.. and that plan is going way better than expected. They aren't going to consolidate young players for vets to "win now" because they aren't ready to "win now". My suggestion is to enjoy the experience of watching young players actualizing their potential and become a group that learns how to win together.

The only trade I can see them making is moving Fultz or Harris. That kind of trade isn't going to set the world on fire but those two players clearly don't fit the time line. If by year 5 of the rebuild which is two more seasons they aren't contending then they'll reassess. But this group is going to get a chance to show what they're made of and it isn't going to be game to game. They'll get 5 years together.

Is there a single poster in this thread that wants to “consolidate young players for vets to win now”?

Most are suggesting some combination of loose parts (Fultz, Harris, Okeke, Nuggets pick, protected ORL pick) for a stop-gap PG or someone who can provide shooting and/or can initiate offense against a set defense.

Wanting a PG or a backcourt offensive threat isn’t only to win now IMO it also helps with the development of our core pieces (Paolo and Franz). There are going to be a lot of painful nights because of this backcourt.

It’s been mentioned but FVV would have been perfect for this team

Yeah there has been.