2023-2024 Regular Season Game 11: Orlando Magic (5-5) at Chicago Bulls (4-7) - 8pm

[eyriq]

this franchise's inability to get a good PG for decades is ridiculous

It’s so amazing. Like honestly impressive.

It’s Penny and then who?

Franchise is cursed at point guard. Even Jameer wasn’t my favorite and he’s probably #2 on the list

It's Penny and then Penny 2.0

[VFX]

Paolo can’t run any off ball action but Moe can and it’s all because of Ingles and bench units, nothing to do with the role and actions the player is prepared to take on?

You realise how absurd that is right? If you want to pretend there’s no chance Paolo can play off the ball on this team then I don’t know what to say.

You’re getting way hung up on the semantics and specific words.

I never said Paolo *can’t* do X, Y and Z.

I said, accurately, that he *doesn’t* or *won’t* do X, Y and Z because he (and Mosley IMO) don’t feel like they have the personnel to do those things at a high level.

Why would the Magic ever call a Suggs/Paolo 1/4 pick and roll when Suggs can’t shoot at a high level off the dribble or change directions effectively enough to exploit the coverage, ya know?

Sorry to cut into this back and forth. It’s been a good discussion so far.

Paolo is in year 2 coming off a RoY season where he wasn’t running “point forward”. I also don’t really think he is one. If anyone is really running that it’s going to sooner be Franz, who I don’t believe is truly a point forward either. Paolo has great quick instincts and passing ability, but he doesn’t have the ball handling he thinks he has. He’s clunky in that aspect.

The simplest answer to this is that Orlando does not have a point guard on the roster that can “run” the offense. AB is a rookie and Franz/Paolo are filling in by committee with Fultz out (he isn’t capable really either). So yeah, Orlando’s offense looks pretty bad.

There are many point guards that get minutes that don’t do this effectively. Fultz happens to be one of them. Not every starting point guard is Ricky Rubio, Luka Doncic, or Chris Paul. Those guys are rare but their impact is apparent. Orlando just needs a guy that does 50% of what those guys can do. FVV is one of those guys that can do some of that. Too bad. Orlando needs to now find a guy on a 1-2 year deal that can fill in while AB learns the game. He’s not going to get that wisdom from anyone on the roster.

[Bensational]

Paolo can’t run any off ball action but Moe can and it’s all because of Ingles and bench units, nothing to do with the role and actions the player is prepared to take on?

You realise how absurd that is right? If you want to pretend there’s no chance Paolo can play off the ball on this team then I don’t know what to say.

You’re getting way hung up on the semantics and specific words.

I never said Paolo *can’t* do X, Y and Z.

I said, accurately, that he *doesn’t* or *won’t* do X, Y and Z because he (and Mosley IMO) don’t feel like they have the personnel to do those things at a high level.

Why would the Magic ever call a Suggs/Paolo 1/4 pick and roll when Suggs can’t shoot at a high level off the dribble or change directions effectively enough to exploit the coverage, ya know?

If getting Paolo more involved in off ball action was the priority, or even just Paolo’s inclination, we’d see it. We can run sets with WCJ and Moe, even Black and Goga have run the basics, but Paolo isn’t getting involved in that. He’s barely setting picks for other players, which I have to imagine is by design as Mosley/Paolo wants the ball in his hands.

Could we be trying to run more elaborate or even alternative sets for Paolo than a lot of iso action? Absolutely. We have to, because when we’re finally in a contention setting we’re going to want to feel confident that Paolo or Franz can go get us that bucket or create one for someone else, and not be wringing our hands in hope that a PG can create a scoring opportunity for them.

Yes, we’re going to need improvements in the backcourt - we just don’t need them now while we have a season where we can afford to let the young guys learn and whilst they’re remaining competitive without too much veteran hand holding. I’m not against what you want to see, I just don’t think this is the time to be demanding it.

[Skybox]

Paolo can’t run any off ball action but Moe can and it’s all because of Ingles and bench units, nothing to do with the role and actions the player is prepared to take on?

You realise how absurd that is right? If you want to pretend there’s no chance Paolo can play off the ball on this team then I don’t know what to say.

You’re getting way hung up on the semantics and specific words.

I never said Paolo *can’t* do X, Y and Z.

I said, accurately, that he *doesn’t* or *won’t* do X, Y and Z because he (and Mosley IMO) don’t feel like they have the personnel to do those things at a high level.

Why would the Magic ever call a Suggs/Paolo 1/4 pick and roll when Suggs can’t shoot at a high level off the dribble or change directions effectively enough to exploit the coverage, ya know?

If getting Paolo more involved in off ball action was the priority, or even just Paolo’s inclination, we’d see it. We can run sets with WCJ and Moe, even Black and Goga have run the basics, but Paolo isn’t getting involved in that. He’s barely setting picks for other players, which I have to imagine is by design as Mosley/Paolo wants the ball in his hands.

Could we be trying to run more elaborate or even alternative sets for Paolo than a lot of iso action? Absolutely. We have to, because when we’re finally in a contention setting we’re going to want to feel confident that Paolo or Franz can go get us that bucket or create one for someone else, and not be wringing our hands in hope that a PG can create a scoring opportunity for them.

Yes, we’re going to need improvements in the backcourt - we just don’t need them now while we have a season where we can afford to let the young guys learn and whilst they’re remaining competitive without too much veteran hand holding. I’m not against what you want to see, I just don’t think this is the time to be demanding it.

So, if I'm following, let the young guys "learn" through clumsy experimentation while staying competitive ...THEN make improvements in the backcourt?

[Bensational]

You’re getting way hung up on the semantics and specific words.

I never said Paolo *can’t* do X, Y and Z.

I said, accurately, that he *doesn’t* or *won’t* do X, Y and Z because he (and Mosley IMO) don’t feel like they have the personnel to do those things at a high level.

Why would the Magic ever call a Suggs/Paolo 1/4 pick and roll when Suggs can’t shoot at a high level off the dribble or change directions effectively enough to exploit the coverage, ya know?

If getting Paolo more involved in off ball action was the priority, or even just Paolo’s inclination, we’d see it. We can run sets with WCJ and Moe, even Black and Goga have run the basics, but Paolo isn’t getting involved in that. He’s barely setting picks for other players, which I have to imagine is by design as Mosley/Paolo wants the ball in his hands.

Could we be trying to run more elaborate or even alternative sets for Paolo than a lot of iso action? Absolutely. We have to, because when we’re finally in a contention setting we’re going to want to feel confident that Paolo or Franz can go get us that bucket or create one for someone else, and not be wringing our hands in hope that a PG can create a scoring opportunity for them.

Yes, we’re going to need improvements in the backcourt - we just don’t need them now while we have a season where we can afford to let the young guys learn and whilst they’re remaining competitive without too much veteran hand holding. I’m not against what you want to see, I just don’t think this is the time to be demanding it.

So, if I'm following, let the young guys "learn" through clumsy experimentation while staying competitive ...THEN make improvements in the backcourt?

That’s an “interpretation” through a cynical lens I guess.

But yes, give Paolo, Franz, Suggs and Black touches and opportunities today and gauge their limitations and weaknesses to improve on in the offseason. We’re 11 games into an 82 game season, we’ve got 71 games left to put these guys through their paces and see who’s able to adapt and improve.

[eyriq]

If getting Paolo more involved in off ball action was the priority, or even just Paolo’s inclination, we’d see it. We can run sets with WCJ and Moe, even Black and Goga have run the basics, but Paolo isn’t getting involved in that. He’s barely setting picks for other players, which I have to imagine is by design as Mosley/Paolo wants the ball in his hands.

Could we be trying to run more elaborate or even alternative sets for Paolo than a lot of iso action? Absolutely. We have to, because when we’re finally in a contention setting we’re going to want to feel confident that Paolo or Franz can go get us that bucket or create one for someone else, and not be wringing our hands in hope that a PG can create a scoring opportunity for them.

Yes, we’re going to need improvements in the backcourt - we just don’t need them now while we have a season where we can afford to let the young guys learn and whilst they’re remaining competitive without too much veteran hand holding. I’m not against what you want to see, I just don’t think this is the time to be demanding it.

So, if I'm following, let the young guys "learn" through clumsy experimentation while staying competitive ...THEN make improvements in the backcourt?

That’s an “interpretation” through a cynical lens I guess.

But yes, give Paolo, Franz, Suggs and Black touches and opportunities today and gauge their limitations and weaknesses to improve on in the offseason. We’re 11 games into an 82 game season, we’ve got 71 games left to put these guys through their paces and see who’s able to adapt and improve.

What about the idea of cashing in Fultz + Isaac + Okeke for a contributor? It's... appealing to me.

Downside:
1. Isaac could never get injured again and I'd be devastated.
2. We'd be taking away reps from Black/Suggs/Jett

[ibraheim718]

So, if I'm following, let the young guys "learn" through clumsy experimentation while staying competitive ...THEN make improvements in the backcourt?

That’s an “interpretation” through a cynical lens I guess.

But yes, give Paolo, Franz, Suggs and Black touches and opportunities today and gauge their limitations and weaknesses to improve on in the offseason. We’re 11 games into an 82 game season, we’ve got 71 games left to put these guys through their paces and see who’s able to adapt and improve.

What about the idea of cashing in Fultz + Isaac + Okeke for a contributor? It's... appealing to me.

Downside:
1. Isaac could never get injured again and I'd be devastated.
2. We'd be taking away reps from Black/Suggs/Jett

Who?

[ibraheim718]

Here is every guard in the NBA. Where are you getting this guard from and how?

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?PlayerPosition=G

[eyriq]

That’s an “interpretation” through a cynical lens I guess.

But yes, give Paolo, Franz, Suggs and Black touches and opportunities today and gauge their limitations and weaknesses to improve on in the offseason. We’re 11 games into an 82 game season, we’ve got 71 games left to put these guys through their paces and see who’s able to adapt and improve.

What about the idea of cashing in Fultz + Isaac + Okeke for a contributor? It's... appealing to me.

Downside:
1. Isaac could never get injured again and I'd be devastated.
2. We'd be taking away reps from Black/Suggs/Jett

Who?

Lavine matches the salary

[Bensational]

What about the idea of cashing in Fultz + Isaac + Okeke for a contributor? It's... appealing to me.

Downside:
1. Isaac could never get injured again and I'd be devastated.
2. We'd be taking away reps from Black/Suggs/Jett

Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t a matter of holding on to Fultz. I just don’t think people have a realistic idea of how the change will impact the team. If someone could point to moments where Paolo has been playing an off ball role to set picks and run lanes and our guys routinely miss him I‘d see the hole they’re trying to plug. Mosley has a team full of willing and good passers, if there were spots they wanted to get the ball to Paolo in it could be done.

We could flip Fultz for a Tyus Jones, Monte Morris type, but I’d be reluctant to take minutes and touches away from Black in the event that they’re more available than Fultz.

It’ll be easier for everyone if people can just commit to this being a season for the young guys to grow and learn and compete off their own backs. It’s gonna be ugly at times, but hopefully that means we see the improvements people are seeking from internal sources rather than external.

[eyriq]

What about the idea of cashing in Fultz + Isaac + Okeke for a contributor? It's... appealing to me.

Downside:
1. Isaac could never get injured again and I'd be devastated.
2. We'd be taking away reps from Black/Suggs/Jett

Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t a matter of holding on to Fultz. I just don’t think people have a realistic idea of how the change will impact the team. If someone could point to moments where Paolo has been playing an off ball role to set picks and run lanes and our guys routinely miss him I‘d see the hole they’re trying to plug. Mosley has a team full of willing and good passers, if there were spots they wanted to get the ball to Paolo in it could be done.

We could flip Fultz for a Tyus Jones, Monte Morris type, but I’d be reluctant to take minutes and touches away from Black in the event that they’re more available than Fultz.

It’ll be easier for everyone if people can just commit to this being a season for the young guys to grow and learn and compete off their own backs. It’s gonna be ugly at times, but hopefully that means we see the improvements people are seeking from internal sources rather than external.

Yeah, I can see this logic. I honestly don't think we gain over much in boosting Paolo/Franz development by bringing in a starter than we lose in Suggs/Black lack of development by blocking them. It's roughly a wash, and if we get the wrong fit and negatively impact culture it could really end up hurting the team.

[ibraheim718]

What about the idea of cashing in Fultz + Isaac + Okeke for a contributor? It's... appealing to me.

Downside:
1. Isaac could never get injured again and I'd be devastated.
2. We'd be taking away reps from Black/Suggs/Jett

Who?

Lavine matches the salary

Bro... SMH. He would make the team worse. Lacks passion when he plays, gets hurt, and doesn't defend. That's not the kind of player they want to bring in.

[Knightro]

Yes, we’re going to need improvements in the backcourt - we just don’t need them now while we have a season where we can afford to let the young guys learn and whilst they’re remaining competitive without too much veteran hand holding. I’m not against what you want to see, I just don’t think this is the time to be demanding it.

This is where you lose me.

Why are we putting off to tomorrow what we clearly need today?

(and will still need tomorrow)

[ibraheim718]

Yes, we’re going to need improvements in the backcourt - we just don’t need them now while we have a season where we can afford to let the young guys learn and whilst they’re remaining competitive without too much veteran hand holding. I’m not against what you want to see, I just don’t think this is the time to be demanding it.

This is where you lose me.

Why are we putting off to tomorrow what we clearly need today?

(and will still need tomorrow)

Because what you have today isn't going to be what you have tomorrow.

[ibraheim718]

37 million per for Lavine

40 million per for Vanvleet

Small market team with a ton of young talent they're going to need to re-sign.. no thanks, pass.

[VFX]

Here is every guard in the NBA. Where are you getting this guard from and how?

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?PlayerPosition=G

I’ll get back to you on this when I’m not on zoom calls for work.

[Knightro]

Because what you have today isn't going to be what you have tomorrow.

This really seems to be the main disconnect.

I personally feel like making Paolo and Franz's jobs easier right now with better talent around them, specifically playmaking talent at guard, will benefit them next year and beyond.

Others seem to think it doesn't really matter how ugly things are this year, because ultimately force feeding both Paolo and Franz in specific situations in a season without real expectations will benefit them and the team in more in the long run.

I see both sides of the argument. I just look at a team like Boston who a lot of people feel like the Magic could ultimately try and replicate with two high end forwards prospects.

They didn't just blindly throw Tatum and Brown on the basketball from the jump and tell them to shoulder all the playmaking duties. Could those guys have done that? Maybe, but they let them really focus on being scorers first and then eased them into more playmaking as time when on.

Brown's rookie year they had Thomas, Smart and Rozier.

Tatum's rookie year they replaced Thomas with Kyrie and had another plus playmaker on the wing in Hayward.

Then they replaced Kyrie with Kemba. Then they replaced Rozier with White and eventually Smart with Holiday.

Really the Celtics didn't use Tatum and Brown as "you two are our primary scorers *and* primary playmakers until like 2021 when Brown was in year 5 and Tatum was in year 4.

[Knightro]

37 million per for Lavine

40 million per for Vanvleet

Small market team with a ton of young talent they're going to need to re-sign.. no thanks, pass.

Well thankfully the entire team is basically on rookie contracts and they're not in any sort of danger of approaching the luxury tax any time soon.

FVV's contract is going to expire before a potentially Franz extension even kicks in.

[VFX]

What about the idea of cashing in Fultz + Isaac + Okeke for a contributor? It's... appealing to me.

Downside:
1. Isaac could never get injured again and I'd be devastated.
2. We'd be taking away reps from Black/Suggs/Jett

Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t a matter of holding on to Fultz. I just don’t think people have a realistic idea of how the change will impact the team. If someone could point to moments where Paolo has been playing an off ball role to set picks and run lanes and our guys routinely miss him I‘d see the hole they’re trying to plug. Mosley has a team full of willing and good passers, if there were spots they wanted to get the ball to Paolo in it could be done.

We could flip Fultz for a Tyus Jones, Monte Morris type, but I’d be reluctant to take minutes and touches away from Black in the event that they’re more available than Fultz.

It’ll be easier for everyone if people can just commit to this being a season for the young guys to grow and learn and compete off their own backs. It’s gonna be ugly at times, but hopefully that means we see the improvements people are seeking from internal sources rather than external.

I think the overarching idea is that you don’t want to squander years of development before you hand these guys a lot of locked in money. We need to know for 100% certain of what they can do with a real point guard that isn’t in his rookie season developing next to them.

Everyone knows they are developing, but why wouldn’t you tweak the roster to help that process instead of making it as difficult as humanly possible?

People know this version of the roster won’t be it’s final iteration even from a starting lineup perspective. So what’s the purpose of not moving players to pair well with the 2-3 guys we know for an absolute fact are not leaving?

This was the entire Fultz argument re-wrapped into a different timeframe.

[pinoynurse]

What about the idea of cashing in Fultz + Isaac + Okeke for a contributor? It's... appealing to me.

Downside:
1. Isaac could never get injured again and I'd be devastated.
2. We'd be taking away reps from Black/Suggs/Jett

Don’t get me wrong, this isn’t a matter of holding on to Fultz. I just don’t think people have a realistic idea of how the change will impact the team. If someone could point to moments where Paolo has been playing an off ball role to set picks and run lanes and our guys routinely miss him I‘d see the hole they’re trying to plug. Mosley has a team full of willing and good passers, if there were spots they wanted to get the ball to Paolo in it could be done.

We could flip Fultz for a Tyus Jones, Monte Morris type, but I’d be reluctant to take minutes and touches away from Black in the event that they’re more available than Fultz.

It’ll be easier for everyone if people can just commit to this being a season for the young guys to grow and learn and compete off their own backs. It’s gonna be ugly at times, but hopefully that means we see the improvements people are seeking from internal sources rather than external.

i would love to have tyus jones here