Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 6

[sidsid]

Samson Folk was talking about this today. He thinks a big reason why there has been less Scottie point guard stuffs is because Darko likes his guard to be the person the runs action and sets up the plays. He said if they actually wanted Scottie to be the primary ball guy they would have Gary start instead of Schroeder and have Barnes start all the actions.

I don't think it's all that though. If they didn't have Dennis, that team would have zero effective pick and roll players in the starting lineup. Even the best players have other ball handling PnR players on the court with them

In the 4th or in close games, Barnes should be bringing the ball and setting the team up every play. In the first half when he's playing with Flynn, Flynn should be bringing it up and setting up Barnes to make a play.

There had to be big stretches in every game where Barnes gets the ball 5-6 possessions in a row where he's keeping it and making plays.

You can have your PG do his thing and have your best player handle the ball. There should never be games where he's standing multiple possessions in a corner. That's what Darko has to figure out how to stop.

The rotations being what they are, this is how I'd like to see Barnes role shift:

- starters: just less Dennis, whichever way you can have that accomplished. With some empty side high/low with Siakam sprinkled in
- heavy bench: hub Scottie instead of Precious with Flynn setting up
- late game: more PNR Scottie like you said.

Playing more Flynn/Dennis combos can also help with some of those transition lineups. We're seeing a bit more of that.

[Scase]

Scotties driving game is really situational, if he is at a standstill, his first step is way too slow to generate any advantage. Not sure how that can reliably be improved, it's usually either a "you got it or you dont" type deal.

Now if he has a full head of steam, as we've seen him start from mid court/back court, he's unstoppable. This bodes well for our already good transition offence, not so much our craptastic HC offence.

I would much rather us see him work on skills that bolster the HC, as that is what is required in tight games/playoffs.

I think what Scottie needs is :
Mid range to be automatic.
Handle needs to be tightened up, he dribbles too high and lost control of the ball bouncing way above his head like 2x in the pistons game alone.
If the 3pt is real, then it's perfect for now, solid 35% is great for his size.
Still needs to get his aggression in order, he needs to take over and be score first. This opens up his passing game and unlocks it fully when doubles get thrown at him regularly, no one is doubling a pass first PF.

[rapsincr]

scottie is the now best 3 point shooter on our team so far this year at 39.4%
(not counting boucher due to low volume)

thats mental lol.
he might not keep it up but man, such an impressive kid..just another thing to add to the list of team bests so far.

[tdotrep2]

scottie is the now best 3 point shooter on our team so far this year by % at 39.4
(not counting boucher due to low volume)

thats mental lol.
he might not keep it up but man, such an impressive kid..just another thing to add to the list of team bests so far.

i'd be extremely happy with 36-37%

[tsherkin]

Has cooled down over the last few games a little and is still looking pretty good. Has his weaknesses and all that, but those are pretty evident at this point. The good stuff he's doing is awesome to see, and he's in the middle of posting 20/9/6 on a little under league average efficiency at the moment. That's an important forward step. Above-average 3pt shooting is really carrying him at the moment, so I hope that sustains. The rest of his shooting has mostly regressed to last year's levels or so, notably below average 2FG+ (mostly because of 10-16 feet and slightly-below-average finishing in close; he's about average from 3-10). Long two's coming down, but he doesn't use it enough for that to matter too much. Still doesn't draw fouls well, though some of that is surely from lack of ref respect. Still, 20 ppg on around league average (-0.4% rTS) is a forward step for him. And we'll see how the rest of the season shakes out. Doing good things on the court. Taking care of the ball and moving it well. Transition stuff is really nice.

I think Scase said it well enough, he has troubles when he's standstill in triple threat. His handle and first step just aren't there for being too dynamic in that spot, so he needs a head of steam, or to be backing down. Interesting to see if/how we support that moving forward.

[rapsincr]

scottie is the now best 3 point shooter on our team so far this year by % at 39.4
(not counting boucher due to low volume)

thats mental lol.
he might not keep it up but man, such an impressive kid..just another thing to add to the list of team bests so far.

i'd be extremely happy with 36-37%

ye me too.

[Scase]

Has cooled down over the last few games a little and is still looking pretty good. Has his weaknesses and all that, but those are pretty evident at this point. The good stuff he's doing is awesome to see, and he's in the middle of posting 20/9/6 on a little under league average efficiency at the moment. That's an important forward step. Above-average 3pt shooting is really carrying him at the moment, so I hope that sustains. The rest of his shooting has mostly regressed to last year's levels or so, notably below average 2FG+ (mostly because of 10-16 feet and slightly-below-average finishing in close; he's about average from 3-10). Long two's coming down, but he doesn't use it enough for that to matter too much. Still doesn't draw fouls well, though some of that is surely from lack of ref respect. Still, 20 ppg on around league average (-0.4% rTS) is a forward step for him. And we'll see how the rest of the season shakes out. Doing good things on the court. Taking care of the ball and moving it well. Transition stuff is really nice.

I think Scase said it well enough, he has troubles when he's standstill in triple threat. His handle and first step just aren't there for being too dynamic in that spot, so he needs a head of steam, or to be backing down. Interesting to see if/how we support that moving forward.

I'm still convinced that so much of his inefficiency is coming from the other players on the court with him. We either trot him out with Jak/Siakam which leaves absolutely zero spacing making his post up game 10x harder than it needs to be, or he's out there with 4 players from the worst bench in the entire league. The fact that he's still doing what he does, is quite frankly a miracle to me.

I want us to finally put a team around him with some shooters and see how his efficiency improves when his teammates are actual scoring threats. His post game seems to be feast or famine, he either looks like a prime hakeem/shaq with the hook/bully ball, or he looks like Kris Humphries just lobbing up horribly uncoordinated shots. I notice the latter usually happen when there isn't a lot of spacing, and instead of kicking it out, he tries to force it.

[tsherkin]

I'm still convinced that so much of his inefficiency is coming from the other players on the court with him.

I'm sure there is a degree to which that influences things. What it means if that's true, however, is that there is a limit to his upper bound of offensive utility that isn't first-tier, that's all. That isn't a sin, he's still a good player, it just changes how we must approach building around him.

His post game seems to be feast or famine, he either looks like a prime hakeem/shaq with the hook/bully ball, or he looks like Kris Humphries just lobbing up horribly uncoordinated shots. I notice the latter usually happen when there isn't a lot of spacing, and instead of kicking it out, he tries to force it.

Yeah, I mean he gets the move or he doesn't, right? BHe doesn't have an amazing mid-range game to draw back on. Whilst his FG% from 3-10 is around league average, he also uses it more frequently than average, so sustaining that percentage is kind of impressive and something to build on. He needs a more reliable fallaway J from the post as a starting point, as that's the big-time counter when the D gets up in your face. I think he's still looking for options instead of having his set pared down to "this, that or that," so to speak. He needs to simplify and be a little more okay passing out, as you say.

His overall profile of offensive value is positive for us, which is the big thing. He's currently 27th in the league in OEPM and 6th in the league in EPM (give or take rounding, he's tied with Steph and Lebron at the moment).

Spacing will obviously help. Getting more FTs and improving at the line would be good, though he's hardly bad at the line.

[HumbleRen]

Has cooled down over the last few games a little and is still looking pretty good. Has his weaknesses and all that, but those are pretty evident at this point. The good stuff he's doing is awesome to see, and he's in the middle of posting 20/9/6 on a little under league average efficiency at the moment. That's an important forward step. Above-average 3pt shooting is really carrying him at the moment, so I hope that sustains. The rest of his shooting has mostly regressed to last year's levels or so, notably below average 2FG+ (mostly because of 10-16 feet and slightly-below-average finishing in close; he's about average from 3-10). Long two's coming down, but he doesn't use it enough for that to matter too much. Still doesn't draw fouls well, though some of that is surely from lack of ref respect. Still, 20 ppg on around league average (-0.4% rTS) is a forward step for him. And we'll see how the rest of the season shakes out. Doing good things on the court. Taking care of the ball and moving it well. Transition stuff is really nice.

I think Scase said it well enough, he has troubles when he's standstill in triple threat. His handle and first step just aren't there for being too dynamic in that spot, so he needs a head of steam, or to be backing down. Interesting to see if/how we support that moving forward.

I'm still convinced that so much of his inefficiency is coming from the other players on the court with him. We either trot him out with Jak/Siakam which leaves absolutely zero spacing making his post up game 10x harder than it needs to be, or he's out there with 4 players from the worst bench in the entire league. The fact that he's still doing what he does, is quite frankly a miracle to me.

I want us to finally put a team around him with some shooters and see how his efficiency improves when his teammates are actual scoring threats. His post game seems to be feast or famine, he either looks like a prime hakeem/shaq with the hook/bully ball, or he looks like Kris Humphries just lobbing up horribly uncoordinated shots. I notice the latter usually happen when there isn't a lot of spacing, and instead of kicking it out, he tries to force it.

His inefficiency in TS% comes down to FT’s.

He’s wildly efficient from the 3 and from the floor. What boosts the TS% the most is your ability to draw FT’s.

That’s probably the only concerning thing about Scottie’s game this year. His touches and usage has gone up but his FTr’s have remained the same as last year. He’s missing 3-6 easy points a night by not being able to draw fouls.

Needs to study some Banchero tape because they both basically play the same way and have the same body. There’s no reason why Banchero can draw 7 FT’s a night but Scottie can barely get 4.

[tsherkin]

His inefficiency in TS% comes down to FT’s.

He’s wildly efficient from the 3 and from the floor. What boosts the TS% the most is your ability to draw FT’s.

This isn't strictly true.

His shot distribution matters. He is also below average in FG% and FT%, which contributes. The FTr issue is there, but it isn't the only component. He's a good 2.1% below league-average FG% and about 2.5% below on FT%. That would make a noteworthy difference in and of itself. And yes, he's MOST notably below average at drawing fouls. Banchero also gets to the RA a bunch more than Scottie does, which makes a difference in his draw rate, though that obviously isn't the whole story.

[HumbleRen]

His inefficiency in TS% comes down to FT’s.

He’s wildly efficient from the 3 and from the floor. What boosts the TS% the most is your ability to draw FT’s.

This isn't strictly true.

His shot distribution matters. He is also below average in FG% and FT%, which contributes. The FTr issue is there, but it isn't the only component. He's a good 2.1% below league-average FG% and about 2.5% below on FT%. That would make a noteworthy difference in and of itself. And yes, he's MOST notably below average at drawing fouls. Banchero also gets to the RA a bunch more than Scottie does, which makes a difference in his draw rate, though that obviously isn't the whole story.

Those are good points. I do think him drawing way more FT's would really help IMO. Plus I think he's much closer to being a 80% FT shooter than he is 75%.

You're right about Banchero, it's why I think Scottie should watch some tape on big guys drawing fouls period, let alone Banchero. He really needs that in his game if he wants to someday drive effective offence for the team.

[tsherkin]

Those are good points. I do think him drawing way more FT's would really help IMO. Plus I think he's much closer to being a 80% FT shooter than he is 75%.

Him drawing more fouls couldn't possibly hurt, it could only help, no doubt. And if he wants to be VERY efficient, there's no choice but to learn how to draw fouls, because he's not going to suddenly shoot 60% from the field, hehe.

I don't agree that he's closer to 80 than to 75% at the line, though. He hasn't done enough to show us that yet. He shot 73.5% as a rook and is at 75.5% right now. It was only last season when he shot 77.2%. So we still have to see where he's at in that regard this year. He's young, though, so it's possible he will put an upward swing to his FT% over the next few seasons, which would be nice, and helpful.

You're right about Banchero, it's why I think Scottie should watch some tape on big guys drawing fouls period, let alone Banchero. He really needs that in his game if he wants to someday drive effective offence for the team.

Yeah, I mean at some stage, any advantage you can gain is going to be valuable, for sure.

[Dalek]

We are a messy team because Poeltl happens to be really good too, but check out Scottie Barnes as a pick and roll man.

He is a big strong guy who is practically unstoppable when he has the ball and has gathered at full steam. Either he powers through guys or gets fouled or both.

Last year, as a pick and roll man, Scottie Barnes averaged:
0.7 POSS
1.25 PPP
65.9 EFG%

This year, I assume he is similar based on my eye test. I don't have Synergy, but to me he is finishing in traffic better than ever off pick and rolls.

He is not only going to finish better in this type of play, but he is also a great passer so you have Scottie rolling getting the ball and making quick decisions.

Having him as a pick and roll handler is just not as good as people think. He is slow even with a screen, and he hasn't found a lot of options as a scorer. Now this does get in Poeltl's way, but I don't see Poeltl closing games for Toronto given his lack of FTs and shooting. Barnes on the other hand will be special in the role.

[Scase]

We are a messy team because Poeltl happens to be really good too, but check out Scottie Barnes as a pick and roll man.

He is a big strong guy who is practically unstoppable when he has the ball and has gathered at full steam. Either he powers through guys or gets fouled or both.

Last year, as a pick and roll man, Scottie Barnes averaged:
0.7 POSS
1.25 PPP
65.9 EFG%

This year, I assume he is similar based on my eye test. I don't have Synergy, but to me he is finishing in traffic better than ever off pick and rolls.

He is not only going to finish better in this type of play, but he is also a great passer so you have Scottie rolling getting the ball and making quick decisions.

Having him as a pick and roll handler is just not as good as people think. He is slow even with a screen, and he hasn't found a lot of options as a scorer. Now this does get in Poeltl's way, but I don't see Poeltl closing games for Toronto given his lack of FTs and shooting. Barnes on the other hand will be special in the role.

Yeah, I'm not sure why we aren't running it with Schroder with Scottie as the roller, he's lights out in that role. He's smart and knows WHEN to cut which is the best thing, Schroder is more than smart enough to know when to make the pass too.

[Dalek]

We are a messy team because Poeltl happens to be really good too, but check out Scottie Barnes as a pick and roll man.

He is a big strong guy who is practically unstoppable when he has the ball and has gathered at full steam. Either he powers through guys or gets fouled or both.

Last year, as a pick and roll man, Scottie Barnes averaged:
0.7 POSS
1.25 PPP
65.9 EFG%

This year, I assume he is similar based on my eye test. I don't have Synergy, but to me he is finishing in traffic better than ever off pick and rolls.

He is not only going to finish better in this type of play, but he is also a great passer so you have Scottie rolling getting the ball and making quick decisions.

Having him as a pick and roll handler is just not as good as people think. He is slow even with a screen, and he hasn't found a lot of options as a scorer. Now this does get in Poeltl's way, but I don't see Poeltl closing games for Toronto given his lack of FTs and shooting. Barnes on the other hand will be special in the role.

Yeah, I'm not sure why we aren't running it with Schroder with Scottie as the roller, he's lights out in that role. He's smart and knows WHEN to cut which is the best thing, Schroder is more than smart enough to know when to make the pass too.

I really think Darko will push for more of these plays for Scottie in time because he is meant for this role. What I have seen is Darko amping up certain play type for players as he learn more:

Siakam post-ups (top F in League this year?)
Gary+OG from three both pull-ups and C&S
Dennis pick and roll and middy pull-ups
Scottie transition handler and scorer
Poeltl bench pick and roll roll man

While I do like Scottie as a roll man, Darko has been focused on Dennis and Poeltl pick and roll which is also very effective.

Poeltl
2.3 POSS
1.37 PPP
78 EFG%

Scottie can play a number of roles and with his shooting improvement he doesn't need to initiate as much and can now be a finisher. I wonder how much Darko will push him away from being a full-time handler.

I don't mind the experimenting, but I just don't want to see him post-up as much unless it is a clear mismatch. I also just don't like him operating in ISO. It just eats clock and leads to turnovers and he tends to put up bad shots.

[WuTang_CMB]

We are lucky to have him

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Read on Twitter

Yup, and they had a .500 team that year. Scotty's doing it on lower usage too.

[dTox]

I have a feeling our boy is going to explode tonight

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[blastttOFF]

Has cooled down over the last few games a little and is still looking pretty good. Has his weaknesses and all that, but those are pretty evident at this point. The good stuff he's doing is awesome to see, and he's in the middle of posting 20/9/6 on a little under league average efficiency at the moment. That's an important forward step. Above-average 3pt shooting is really carrying him at the moment, so I hope that sustains. The rest of his shooting has mostly regressed to last year's levels or so, notably below average 2FG+ (mostly because of 10-16 feet and slightly-below-average finishing in close; he's about average from 3-10). Long two's coming down, but he doesn't use it enough for that to matter too much. Still doesn't draw fouls well, though some of that is surely from lack of ref respect. Still, 20 ppg on around league average (-0.4% rTS) is a forward step for him. And we'll see how the rest of the season shakes out. Doing good things on the court. Taking care of the ball and moving it well. Transition stuff is really nice.

I think Scase said it well enough, he has troubles when he's standstill in triple threat. His handle and first step just aren't there for being too dynamic in that spot, so he needs a head of steam, or to be backing down. Interesting to see if/how we support that moving forward.

I'm still convinced that so much of his inefficiency is coming from the other players on the court with him. We either trot him out with Jak/Siakam which leaves absolutely zero spacing making his post up game 10x harder than it needs to be, or he's out there with 4 players from the worst bench in the entire league. The fact that he's still doing what he does, is quite frankly a miracle to me.

I want us to finally put a team around him with some shooters and see how his efficiency improves when his teammates are actual scoring threats. His post game seems to be feast or famine, he either looks like a prime hakeem/shaq with the hook/bully ball, or he looks like Kris Humphries just lobbing up horribly uncoordinated shots. I notice the latter usually happen when there isn't a lot of spacing, and instead of kicking it out, he tries to force it.

His inefficiency in TS% comes down to FT’s.

He’s wildly efficient from the 3 and from the floor. What boosts the TS% the most is your ability to draw FT’s.

That’s probably the only concerning thing about Scottie’s game this year. His touches and usage has gone up but his FTr’s have remained the same as last year. He’s missing 3-6 easy points a night by not being able to draw fouls.

Needs to study some Banchero tape because they both basically play the same way and have the same body. There’s no reason why Banchero can draw 7 FT’s a night but Scottie can barely get 4.

his isolation numbers also stink. I think he is 13th percentile one isolation perimeter plays and 8th percentile in isolation post plays.

Dont think he'll be an isolation give it to me when it matters kind of guy, that's why i see him defer to guys like Gary and Dennis at end of shot clock late clock scenarios.