2023-24 General Thread

[OGSactownballer]

The guy I'm a bit curious about it Caruso.

Could he be a cheaper get than some people can expect?

Davion for him straight up works in the trade checker here.

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7881555

Assume we add some draft incentive.

I recently proposed on our board…curious for your opinions.

Kings get Caruso and Patrick Williams
- AC’s well known as one of the best defenders in the league. It’s not sustainable, but he’s off to a really hot start shooting the ball. Less than $9.4MM this year, and less than $9.9MM next year, so on a nice value deal.
- Pat’s a bust for a #4 pick, has regressed and needs a change of scenery. It’s all mental with this kid. I think he’d snap back to a respectable 3&D player with a fresh start, and a real PG like Fox. Plus you get Domas’s passing and I think that would also help him. Shooting 40% career from 3, consistently for 2 full seasons, and that’s factoring in this season’s rough 25% start.

Bulls get Harrison Barnes, Colby Jones, plus 2 firsts, both top 4 protected.
- Not sure if actually true, but saw a comment somewhere on RealGM that Barnes looks like he’s falling off and it might be instant buyer’s remorse on his contract.
For context, this proposal largely assumes this is true. Interestingly, if Williams can somehow turn around his career and find himself, I think his peak could be similar to prime Barnes.
- Colby Jones - I see he has been playing well in G-League, and you guys are high on him. Prob the reason you may see this trade as too Bulls-centric, but I’m not convinced by G-League stats. We had the G-League MVP, and we cut him. I think every fanbase gets enamored with the hope of their young players, so I don’t see the same kind of value with Jones as you would. Of course there are plenty of guys who outplay their draft position, but in most cases end of the day, guys are 2nd rounders for a reason. I like him in this as a dart throw.

The picks, I see AC as easily worth one, and it seems crazy, but he may be worth two depending on where they fall of course (ie. - 2nd half of the first). You can’t predict position so far into the future, but I still feel ok asking for the 2nd first due to the Barnes assumption and taking that contract off your books. Williams would need to be resigned at some point if he works out, but his play isn’t commanding that much right now.

While part of me thinks you guys would normally want to wait for the Keegan + filler + 3 picks homerun…it’s an unusually challenging time for such a trade. I saw someone earlier in this thread post about how you can be outbid, and that’s true with OKC, Utah, SAS, and NY all flush with picks if a real star became available. So I wonder if it’s better to take advantage of this very good team you have right now, and try to make incremental improvements.

I think this is the kind of deal that would help, but is imperfect in that it won’t put you alongside the few favorites. However, I don’t think anything does that outside a stroke of huge luck. If your org resigned him on the cheap, and then figured out how to get Williams to start taking steps forward, that could be a pretty big plus.

Beyond the fact that Chicago is going to be looking to move large contracts and older guys, not young cheap players, why would we include ANY first round picks in this deal?

Nobody outside of Chicago sees Patrick Williams as anything but a bust. And while Caruso is a nice defensive role player, we are very guard heavy already and he is not a really good offensive guy. He also gets hurt a LOT because of his balls out style of play. And I don’t EVER like that. I like guys who stay healthy so they are able to play.

[OGSactownballer]

Which would be a list of forwards more or less realistic that would compliment the roster?

My starting list…

Tier 1:
Anunoby
Miles Bridges
Siakam?
Kuzma?

Tier 2:
Patrick Williams
PJ Washington
Saddiq Bey

Tier 3:
Jonathan Isaac
Poku
Royce O’Neale
Dorian Finney-Smith
Kyle Anderson
Larry Nance Jr

Of Tier 1, I would only pay for Siakam. I’ve said many times I’m not big on OG. And if we are talking about a STAR level player, we might as well get one that is already proven and established.

Hard no list:

Kuzma
Isaac
Miles Bridges (love his game but WAY too high a risk)
Patrick Williams (unless it’s cheap - just think he’s a bust)
Larry Nance (just always seems to not quite get it done)


Not sure on Slo-Mo. for the right (cheap) price yes. But not some stupid overpay. There are younger guys that have more career to give with the same raw skill set.

All the others I would be fine with again for the right price. Some of those teams (Brooklyn) will want more than those guys are worth.

[Wingy]

Beyond the fact that Chicago is going to be looking to move large contracts and older guys, not young cheap players, why would we include ANY first round picks in this deal?

Nobody outside of Chicago sees Patrick Williams as anything but a bust. And while Caruso is a nice defensive role player, we are very guard heavy already and he is not a really good offensive guy. He also gets hurt a LOT because of his balls out style of play. And I don’t EVER like that. I like guys who stay healthy so they are able to play.

Well, everyone inside of Chicago sees Williams as a bust. Not sure if you read or just skimmed, but that’s literally what I opened with when describing him. However, just because you’re a bust relative to draft position doesn’t mean you can’t be an objectively useful player. It’s just not happening on his original team, but I think it’s still in him to be a good player (but not worth #4) in the right situation elsewhere such as Sacramento.

I also noted an assumption that Barnes contract might be immediate buyer’s remorse based on a comment I saw either on our board, or more likely the GB.

AC’s not just some regular good defensive role player. The eye test and the metrics show him as one of the best defenders in the entire league who can check guards, wings, and even battle 4s admirably when called upon.

Certainly understandable why someone would be wary of his health history, and why one would devalue him for that reason.

The proof will be when/if we actually trade him. He’ll be in high demand, so I’m interested in what we could get given the competition and parity in the league right now. He fits any team really. But, our FO is bad, so they’ll probably just sit on their hands. To think he wouldn’t get at least one 1st is pretty unrealistic. Again, I get it from your personal angle when one really values availability, but I don’t think the league is going to get fully hung up on that.

[Crimson King]

Which would be a list of forwards more or less realistic that would compliment the roster?

My starting list…

Tier 1:
Anunoby
Miles Bridges
Siakam?
Kuzma?

Tier 2:
Patrick Williams
PJ Washington
Saddiq Bey

Tier 3:
Jonathan Isaac
Poku
Royce O’Neale
Dorian Finney-Smith
Kyle Anderson
Larry Nance Jr

Of Tier 1, I would only pay for Siakam. I’ve said many times I’m not big on OG. And if we are talking about a STAR level player, we might as well get one that is already proven and established.

Hard no list:

Kuzma
Isaac
Miles Bridges (love his game but WAY too high a risk)
Patrick Williams (unless it’s cheap - just think he’s a bust)
Larry Nance (just always seems to not quite get it done)


Not sure on Slo-Mo. for the right (cheap) price yes. But not some stupid overpay. There are younger guys that have more career to give with the same raw skill set.

All the others I would be fine with again for the right price. Some of those teams (Brooklyn) will want more than those guys are worth.

I see your point, but probably Miles Bridges is the best player available for a low price, as the possibilities of him resigning with the Hornets are very low IMO.

[OxAndFox]

Honestly, the Kings simply need to hold firm. I said it last season, the way Sacramento plays there will be a star player who demands a trade and gives his "list" and the Kings will be there. That's when you push in with picks. Certainly not for a Caruso/Williams trade.

[blind prophet]

The guy I'm a bit curious about it Caruso.

Could he be a cheaper get than some people can expect?

Davion for him straight up works in the trade checker here.

https://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/7881555

Assume we add some draft incentive.

I recently proposed on our board…curious for your opinions.

Kings get Caruso and Patrick Williams
- AC’s well known as one of the best defenders in the league. It’s not sustainable, but he’s off to a really hot start shooting the ball. Less than $9.4MM this year, and less than $9.9MM next year, so on a nice value deal.
- Pat’s a bust for a #4 pick, has regressed and needs a change of scenery. It’s all mental with this kid. I think he’d snap back to a respectable 3&D player with a fresh start, and a real PG like Fox. Plus you get Domas’s passing and I think that would also help him. Shooting 40% career from 3, consistently for 2 full seasons, and that’s factoring in this season’s rough 25% start.

Bulls get Harrison Barnes, Colby Jones, plus 2 firsts, both top 4 protected.
- Not sure if actually true, but saw a comment somewhere on RealGM that Barnes looks like he’s falling off and it might be instant buyer’s remorse on his contract.
For context, this proposal largely assumes this is true. Interestingly, if Williams can somehow turn around his career and find himself, I think his peak could be similar to prime Barnes.
- Colby Jones - I see he has been playing well in G-League, and you guys are high on him. Prob the reason you may see this trade as too Bulls-centric, but I’m not convinced by G-League stats. We had the G-League MVP, and we cut him. I think every fanbase gets enamored with the hope of their young players, so I don’t see the same kind of value with Jones as you would. Of course there are plenty of guys who outplay their draft position, but in most cases end of the day, guys are 2nd rounders for a reason. I like him in this as a dart throw.

The picks, I see AC as easily worth one, and it seems crazy, but he may be worth two depending on where they fall of course (ie. - 2nd half of the first). You can’t predict position so far into the future, but I still feel ok asking for the 2nd first due to the Barnes assumption and taking that contract off your books. Williams would need to be resigned at some point if he works out, but his play isn’t commanding that much right now.

While part of me thinks you guys would normally want to wait for the Keegan + filler + 3 picks homerun…it’s an unusually challenging time for such a trade. I saw someone earlier in this thread post about how you can be outbid, and that’s true with OKC, Utah, SAS, and NY all flush with picks if a real star became available. So I wonder if it’s better to take advantage of this very good team you have right now, and try to make incremental improvements.

I think this is the kind of deal that would help, but is imperfect in that it won’t put you alongside the few favorites. However, I don’t think anything does that outside a stroke of huge luck. If your org resigned him on the cheap, and then figured out how to get Williams to start taking steps forward, that could be a pretty big plus.

Two firsts out is too expensive for us.

If you want to try and get closer to that sort of return I think trying to move Caruso to a team with an older core may return more than we'd pay. That's because they would be on a shorter time frame & more urgent to make a move than us.

[blind prophet]

NBA Trade Rumors: Kings Expected to Pursue Stars; LaVine, Siakam, Anunoby Linked


The Sacramento Kings could attempt to acquire a star to put alongside De'Aaron Fox and Domantas Sabonis via trade, according to Shams Charania of The Athletic.

"They are going to be involved in every star player," Charania said. "Pascal Siakam, OG Anunoby, maybe Zach LaVine. ...They've done a good job at keeping their assets, they have tradeable contracts. So they're gonna be a player for stars coming up, for sure. I think eventually, they could add a third piece."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10098131-nba-trade-rumors-kings-expected-to-pursue-stars-lavine-siakam-anunoby-linked

[blind prophet]

Yeah I'm not buying Lavine rumors at all. Siakam seems to not be the ideal fit with Sabonis, OG expensive and expiring. I won't be surprised if we are used in rumors in attempt to boost trade value and it not being very legit.

[Wingy]

Two firsts out is too expensive for us.

If you want to try and get closer to that sort of return I think trying to move Caruso to a team with an older core may return more than we'd pay. That's because they would be on a shorter time frame & more urgent to make a move than us.

Totally get it, two firsts is a lot when they’re 2 of your 3 biggest remaining bullets. It would be the same for us the way AK has bandied picks about.

Kings are in a great place, yet in a tough place at the same time trying to figure out how to get to the top tier with the assets they have remaining.

Agree that a solid haul is there for the right team that really feels they need that extra or last piece to push them over the top.

The Celtics while not old are a good example of the clock ticking, not due to age, but due to salary. Problem is, even at AC’s modest $9.4MM, they’d need to do a crazy 5 for 1 swap just to match salaries and maintain the minuscule quality depth they have now.

Anyway, I wish you guys luck. I like the team a lot, definitely my favorite Western conference team to pull for right now.

[Wingy]

Honestly, the Kings simply need to hold firm. I said it last season, the way Sacramento plays there will be a star player who demands a trade and gives his "list" and the Kings will be there. That's when you push in with picks. Certainly not for a Caruso/Williams trade.

Tough. How do you beat OKC’s situation and war chest of picks? Or even the Knicks? Pop and Wemby have some appeal, but I would think most intelligent stars would pick the Kings over them.

It would be awesome for someone to specifically choose the Kings for the exciting team that would create, but I think that’s what it would take, and that’s looking for an extremely niche, highly specific scenario. Not saying that makes my trade idea better or any more appealing from a Kings fan pov, but I think that’s the thread the needle reality you’re hoping comes to fruition.

[OxAndFox]

Honestly, the Kings simply need to hold firm. I said it last season, the way Sacramento plays there will be a star player who demands a trade and gives his "list" and the Kings will be there. That's when you push in with picks. Certainly not for a Caruso/Williams trade.

Tough. How do you beat OKC’s situation and war chest of picks? Or even the Knicks? Pop and Wemby have some appeal, but I would think most intelligent stars would pick the Kings over them.

It would be awesome for someone to specifically choose the Kings for the exciting team that would create, but I think that’s what it would take, and that’s looking for an extremely niche, highly specific scenario. Not saying that makes my trade idea better or any more appealing from a Kings fan pov, but I think that’s the thread the needle reality you’re hoping comes to fruition.

Absolutely. It's going to be a specific situation.
Once FOs get used to the new CBA and limitations, 1st round picks are going to be extremely valuable. Getting a cost controlled asset via picks is going to be the only way some of these teams are going to be able to operate. The Kings can't move into that territory without it being a star, and I'm not sure they would even be looking for one because everything points to them loving Monk and he won't be cheap, and then Keegan/Fox need new contracts not long after.

[BoogieTime]

Og really the only fit of those three (Lavine/pascal/OG)

Lavine not worth talking about IMO. We are number 1 in offense already, guys shooting has been slipping and has played worse defense than Huerter for these two years. Huerter at least works with Sabonis quite efficiently, and Lavine terrible, punitive contract

Pascal not spacing the floor or protecting the rim for his position and is getting worse and will get paid

I don’t see OG as gettable though and he will be overpaid for a limited role player with injury history

[BoogieTime]

Huerter may just be an inconsistent player who your always going to go around in circles with, but nights like these last few nights leave you thinking that position could be upgraded.

Still, making trades you have to factor how much adding key pieces make in salary and how much you would give up. If the Kings aren't giving up Keegan all they have is distant picks that aren't truly appetizing to GMs who don't have more than immediate job security (I don’t think the collection of Huerter/Barnes/Davion/Duarte moves a lot in deals like these). So, you wouldnt want to give up anything for Lavine who who will make our books rough with 3 players taking up so much the cap.

[OxAndFox]

So Murray is listed as doubtful.
Wonder if they're taking more precautions as this is the second time in two years, around the same time he has missed games due to his back.
They probably need to get on top of this before it gets to be a problem.

[City of Trees]

Healthy Zion is a PROBLEM.

[LightTheBeam]

Whatever we do, we need to do it soon. Harrison "Ghost" Barnes gives us absolutely nothing and gets abused on defense.

The most obvious mistake of all time not letting him walk.

Collins
Grant
OG

Literally anyone, even benching him until we make a trade. I don't understand, he's our 4th best forward and that's being generous.

[Lost in LA]

We have been poor in back to backs, maybe caused by how much we depend on the starting 5. This team is only as good as Fox can carry them, and he was the only starter who showed up against the Clippers. We are fooling ourselves if we don't add a forward at a minimum. Barnes is really poor, and given Sabonis' loss of form, and Murray out, that's a back gap to fill.

[FarBeyondDriven]

Beyond the fact that Chicago is going to be looking to move large contracts and older guys, not young cheap players, why would we include ANY first round picks in this deal?

Nobody outside of Chicago sees Patrick Williams as anything but a bust. And while Caruso is a nice defensive role player, we are very guard heavy already and he is not a really good offensive guy. He also gets hurt a LOT because of his balls out style of play. And I don’t EVER like that. I like guys who stay healthy so they are able to play.

Well, everyone inside of Chicago sees Williams as a bust. Not sure if you read or just skimmed, but that’s literally what I opened with when describing him. However, just because you’re a bust relative to draft position doesn’t mean you can’t be an objectively useful player. It’s just not happening on his original team, but I think it’s still in him to be a good player (but not worth #4) in the right situation elsewhere such as Sacramento.

I also noted an assumption that Barnes contract might be immediate buyer’s remorse based on a comment I saw either on our board, or more likely the GB.

AC’s not just some regular good defensive role player. The eye test and the metrics show him as one of the best defenders in the entire league who can check guards, wings, and even battle 4s admirably when called upon.

Certainly understandable why someone would be wary of his health history, and why one would devalue him for that reason.

The proof will be when/if we actually trade him. He’ll be in high demand, so I’m interested in what we could get given the competition and parity in the league right now. He fits any team really. But, our FO is bad, so they’ll probably just sit on their hands. To think he wouldn’t get at least one 1st is pretty unrealistic. Again, I get it from your personal angle when one really values availability, but I don’t think the league is going to get fully hung up on that.

I wholeheartedly agree. He was clearly drafted too high and it's affecting people's perceptions of him. He is a Barnes type role player and if surrounded by great players that play well together he'd show out. He and Isaac intrigue me the most.

[OxAndFox]

Was bored and thought I would look through some early line up stats. Sorry for the long post. Is there anything to be learned yet from these or too early still? Particularly with Keegan and Fox missing time.

Highest net rating of 3 player line ups
Min 15 minutes
1 - Lyles, Monk, Huerter (56.5)
2 - Monk, Vezenkov, Huerter (52.9)
3 - Monk, Huerter, Ellis (39.6)

Min 30 minutes
1 - Sabonis, Monk, Ellis (31.3)
2 - Sabonis, Fox, Vezenkov (29.4)
3 - Monk, Vezenkov, Murray (26.3)

Min 60 minutes
1 - Sabonis, Monk, Vezenkov (21.2)
2 - McGee, Monk, Duarte (18.8)
3 - Monk, Vezenkov, Duarte (17.2)

100+ minutes
1 - Barnes, Fox, Murray (12.4)
2 - Fox, Huerter, Murray (11.7)
3 - Sabonis, Fox, Murray (10.1)

Highest defensive rating of 3 player line ups
Min 15 minutes
1 - Monk, Huerter, Ellis (82.1)
2 - McGee, Barnes, Fox (85.2)
3 - Barnes, Lyles, Fox (85.9)

Min 30 minutes
1 - Sabonis, Fox, Vezenkov (94.0)
2 - Barnes, Huerter, Ellis (97.2)
3 - Monk, Mitchell, Murray (98.9)

Min 60 minutes
1 - Sabonis, Monk, Vezenkov (101.3)
2 - Barnes, Sabonis, Ellis (101.5)
3 - Sabonis, Huerter, Ellis (102.3)

100+ minutes
1 - Sabonis, Mitchell Murray (106.1)
2 - Barnes, Huerter, Murray (107.4)
3 - Sabonis, Huerter, Murray (108.4)

250+ minutes (only been 4 and top 3 were clearly ahead - worst was Barnes, Sabonis, Fox - 117.1)
1 - Sabonis, Huerter, Murray (110.6)
2 - Barnes, Sabonis, Murray (109.9)
3 - Barnes, Sabonis, Huerter (111.4)

Starting 5 has played 122 minutes for an offensive rating of 124.2 and a defensive rating of 107.3.

The 2 best defensive ratings for 5 man unit playing over 30 minutes or more (only 5 combos so far) is currently:
1 - Barnes, Sabonis, Huerter, Murray, Ellis (98.6) in 35 minutes
2 - McGee, Fox, Monk, Vezenkov, Duarte (104.7) in 30 minutes

[BoogieTime]

Sactowndog and I had a friendly wager that in a poll between whether or not the Kings should keep Sabonis or Murray that Sabonis would get at least 80% of the vote, and unfortunately I came up a little short I should learn that not everyone shares my opinion, lol.

Actually, it was making me sick having to take the negative stance towards another Kings player. I wish Keegan nothing but love in his future endeavors. Lets hope his newfound defensive prowess matches the offensive bag he has shown in spurts and he balls out for the franchise