Why do some American NBA players do so badly in FIBA?

[Chuck Everett]

Look at the numbers Haliburton put up tonight. This would simply not be possible in FIBA. I mean, as someone who doesn't play fantasy or gamble, I have to remind myself that what I am watching is a bastardization of the game in some aspects. The playoffs shouldn't look like a different sport from the regular season.

[BruttoNostra]

Are the rules really that different?

NBA is a different game.

The center can't just camp in the lane = illegal defense. Screens are allowed to be moving. Traveling is rarely called. Freedom of movement slants everything to the offense, so teams have to lean into building teams with length to mitigate. High possession games, with shorter shot clocks on offensive rebounds. 8 seconds to get the ball up the court to increase pace.

... Smaller court, rules, more time for one play, less time overall, experience matters.

Less propensity for loaded star power on ball dominance (only need two max). Defined sets whereas in the NBA they can rush multiple sets because of shot clock/8 sec rule so executing it on a smaller court is different with less time overall but more time for set plays.
...

(sorry, DCasey91, had to cut a lot of text, with most of which I totally agree, btw)

Sorry, guys, no difference here between NBA and FIBA (talking about the bold text only, ofc).
If anything, I constantly see 8 sec violations in NBA (it should be called when the 24sec clock is at 15), nobody pays attention to that rule.
And a fun fact about 14sec/shorter shot clocks on offensive rebounds:
FIBA adopted this in 2014, a whole 4 years BEFORE NBA --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_clock

[LuDux1]

Lithuania had like 10 declines, 8 players were first timers, most never played with each other up until this tournament, they win

4 first timers, if we don't only official NT games, 8 if we compare with

most never played with each other up until this tournament

They played together in top Lithuanian league quite a lot



TBF, you wanted to make a clever point and didn't expect to be met head on with facts

[LuDux1]

Look at the numbers Haliburton put up tonight. This would simply not be possible in FIBA. I mean, as someone who doesn't play fantasy or gamble, I have to remind myself that what I am watching is a bastardization of the game in some aspects. The playoffs shouldn't look like a different sport from the regular season.

Luka scored 37 in FIBA this summer. In 31 minute

[UcanUwill]

Lithuania had like 10 declines, 8 players were first timers, most never played with each other up until this tournament, they win

4 first timers, if we don't only official NT games, 8 if we compare with

most never played with each other up until this tournament

They played together in top Lithuanian league quite a lot



TBF, you wanted to make a clever point and didn't expect to be met head on with facts

Thanks for fact checking me, but fact stands, it was entirely new team, and clearly a B team knowing tons of first team players declined, just like most of all the others its a Frankenstein every year. I imagine USA has less continuity overall, sure, but some act like it is only the problem for USA, that only USA sends B team and their team is put together from nothing.

Look at this Lithuanian team, altho some players played on same club in the past or currently, just from the top of my head, Sabonis, Grigonis, Ulanovas, Butkevičius, Lekavičius, Giedraitis and Echodas declined to play, that team was proclaimed one of the worst ever, but do US apologists mention that, of course not. I mean I dont expect them to know International team niuances, but if you dont know, do not act like you do, very very few teams there have notable continuity.

[LuDux1]

Lithuania had like 10 declines, 8 players were first timers, most never played with each other up until this tournament, they win

4 first timers, if we don't only official NT games, 8 if we compare with

most never played with each other up until this tournament

They played together in top Lithuanian league quite a lot



TBF, you wanted to make a clever point and didn't expect to be met head on with facts

Thanks for fact checking me, but fact stands, it was entirely new team, and clearly a B team knowing tons of first team players declined, just like most of all the others its a Frankenstein every year. I imagine USA has less continuity overall, sure, but some act like it is only the problem for USA, that only USA sends B team and their team is put together from nothing.

Look at this Lithuanian team, altho some players played on same club in the past or currently, just from the top of my head, Sabonis, Grigonis, Ulanovas, Butkevičius, Lekavičius, Giedraitis and Echodas declined to play, that team was proclaimed one of the worst ever, but do US apologists mention that, of course not. I mean I dont expect them to know International team niuances, but if you dont know, do not act like you do, very very few teams there have notable continuity.

Yeah Lithuanian missed half of top 10. USA missed entire top-15

[-Luke-]

What continuity Germany, Canada and Lithuania had this year, all teams that beat team USA? almost none of these FIBA teams have continuity, its not the explanation.

What? Lmao these teams practice together EVERY SUMMER

So does USA.... Or do you think only USA changes up rosters? Lithuania had like 10 declines, 8 players were first timers, most never played with each other up until this tournament, they win. Canada practice every year, they had one cup of coffee summer where some guys played, and thats it. German team, out of those had the most continuity but it is still new Frankenstein team like every NATION HAS EVERY YEAR. Yes, some players are there every year, and some nations have more continuity than others, in recent history, Spain and France probably had the most continuity, didnt help France any...

Love American ignorance who think other nations have same 10 players who always play, never decline to play, and only know how to play with each other. Every single team there is a mix of old and new every summer..

But I still think it's a fair point by Heej. If you look at the German team, they had almost the exact same team that was third at the EuroBasket in 2022 (and they will have the same team next year at the Olympics, if guys are healthy). Weiler-Babb was injured, but while he was good in 2022, he was the one guy who was new to the team anyway. Wagner the Elder and Bonga joined the team because they were injured in 2022. But apart from that same team. And Schröder, Theis, Voigtmann, Lo, Obst have been playing together since kindergarten basically. I think that matters.

But yes, that's definitely not the only reason. The continuity doesn't explain why JJJ couldn't get a rebound to save his life. And why Daniel Theis who is shorter dominated him (maybe a bit exaggerated) while the same JJJ is DPOY of the NBA and Theis couldn't crack the Pacers rotation.

Having said all that, we shouldn't forget that the losses of USA were close. I'm still of the opinion that the same team wins gold with a decent center. I'm not even talking Embiid or AD. But put Myles Turner in there and I think they win it all.

[SpreeS]

I can understand why USA team sucked at FIBA games, but how european stars

Giannis lost to Germany in Eurobasket 22
Doncic lost to Poland in Eurobasket 22
Jokic lost to Italy in Eurobasket 22

[-Luke-]

I can understand why USA team sucked at FIBA games, but how european stars

Giannis lost to Germany in Eurobasket 22
Doncic lost to Poland in Eurobasket 22
Jokic lost to Italy in Eurobasket 22

I think it's just what happens in single elimination games. Could happen in the NBA as well if we had best of 1 playoff series. I remember the Slovenia vs. Poland game and Serbia vs Italy game a bit. But I remember the Germany vs. Greece game very good. Although I loved it as a German, that was also an outlier. Our backcourt literally shot like prime splash brothers and Daniel Theis was out there playing like prime Ben Wallace. I think if they play that game ten times, that was the one game where the shot will fall like that. In a best of 5 or best of 7 series, maybe all of those series are won by the other team.

[jmnvcavs]

If the US would have had Bam, MRobinson, or Mobley it could have made a big impact.

[SoulJah]

Main things that are apparent between FIBA and NBA is officiating and style of play.

- NBA is full of star players travelling, but in FIBA, they are are called for it
- Foul calling and preferrential treatment by refs. When they don't get catered to in FIBA and just treated as just another player, it gets hard for them to play
- No set plays. NBA is where a designated star defensive player can get away with murder just based off reputation yet in FIBA, again, they are just another player and will be called for it.

[peZt]

Smaller Court, no defensive 5 second rule, more physical contact allowed. So players who can dominate the NBA through sheer power and athleticism have it much tougher to perform in FIBA play cause the rules simply do not favor their playing style.
Guys like Giannis are a prime example. If you mainly operate in the open court and fast break situations then you will have a hard time to excel in FIBA. You need some sort of half court and perimeter skills. You simply can not drive to the basket on every single play when the lane is crowded as hell and the defenders are allowed to play more physical defense with you

[peZt]

Don’t know why posters here saying it’s a small sample size. US has had it creeping up on them for awhile.

A whole bunch of different reasons imo. Smaller court, rules, more time for one play, less time overall, experience matters.

Less propensity for loaded star power on ball dominance (only need two max). Defined sets whereas in the NBA they can rush multiple sets because of shot clock/8 sec rule so executing it on a smaller court is different with less time overall but more time for set plays.

Defense is a lot more equipped. Because of the size and rules.

To me Fiba stuff is a lot closer to how basketball should be played whereas NBA is a business first and foremost. Not that Fiba isn’t there’s just a better balance on both sides of the ball.

Luka has a good insight on this. NBA way better players, Fiba stuff is harder to get loaded/inflated stats/scores.

I think the biggest thing is the illegal defense. Imagine a goalie/free safety at all times whereas in the NBA the goalie/free safety can only be in the box for a small period of time. That alone I reckon would make all teams 2-3 points better on defense without even getting into improved defensive structures/ideas.

No secret as to why the lane is free real estate now.

I love the NBA but your post is basically fair. The NBA figured out people watch basketball primarily as an individual sport and they also figured out there is a certain style of player they prefer the most. And they greatly tailored the rulebook to highlight this type of player.

The FIBA rulebook is designed to make basketball much more of a 5-5 game with complicated strategy to get good shots rather than advanced individual skill

I just dont think that's the case. Anyone who's watched the Fiba World Cup this summer will agree, that Fiba play is just so much more intense and entertaining than NBA Basketball. I think if you combined the individual talent of the NBA with a Fiba ruleset, you would have the best product, that would gather the most interest of casual fans.

But I think that has more to do with the other rules, outside of the oncourt rules.

Except for the defensive 3 second rule, I think every rule difference in FIBA makes for a more entertaining product. Less timeouts, more contact allowed = fewer fouls, no ad timeouts, shorter timeouts, last 2 minutes of the game not taking 30 minutes etc. all contribute to the fact that, to me at least, it's so much more fun to watch FIBA Basketball than NBA. I am 100% sure, if the NBA took over the FIBA ruleset (except defensive 3 seconds) longterm, the sport would be so much more popular. I know so many people who cant bother to sit through a NBA game because it's such a drag to watch with all the foul calls, breaks, timeouts etc.

[UcanUwill]

What? Lmao these teams practice together EVERY SUMMER

So does USA.... Or do you think only USA changes up rosters? Lithuania had like 10 declines, 8 players were first timers, most never played with each other up until this tournament, they win. Canada practice every year, they had one cup of coffee summer where some guys played, and thats it. German team, out of those had the most continuity but it is still new Frankenstein team like every NATION HAS EVERY YEAR. Yes, some players are there every year, and some nations have more continuity than others, in recent history, Spain and France probably had the most continuity, didnt help France any...

Love American ignorance who think other nations have same 10 players who always play, never decline to play, and only know how to play with each other. Every single team there is a mix of old and new every summer..

But I still think it's a fair point by Heej. If you look at the German team, they had almost the exact same team that was third at the EuroBasket in 2022 (and they will have the same team next year at the Olympics, if guys are healthy). Weiler-Babb was injured, but while he was good in 2022, he was the one guy who was new to the team anyway. Wagner the Elder and Bonga joined the team because they were injured in 2022. But apart from that same team. And Schröder, Theis, Voigtmann, Lo, Obst have been playing together since kindergarten basically. I think that matters.

But yes, that's definitely not the only reason. The continuity doesn't explain why JJJ couldn't get a rebound to save his life. And why Daniel Theis who is shorter dominated him (maybe a bit exaggerated) while the same JJJ is DPOY of the NBA and Theis couldn't crack the Pacers rotation.

Having said all that, we shouldn't forget that the losses of USA were close. I'm still of the opinion that the same team wins gold with a decent center. I'm not even talking Embiid or AD. But put Myles Turner in there and I think they win it all.

As I said, some nations have more continuity than others, but I dont like that excuse, not only because most teams do not have this magical continuity US fans claim, is there serious correlation between continuity and success even? I am not saying it doesnt matter at all, but look at it. Current Euro winner, Spain, won cause they hired Lorenzo just before tournament, lots of generation transitional players also, really far from great continuity argument. WInner before that, SLovenia - with first timer coach and star in Kokoskov and Doncic.
Lithuania had most success in WC in 2010 and 2023, two teams that were written off as misfits, because of all most guys didnt play and it was a team of inexperienced NT players.
Canada just hired Hernandez and their team had little continuity, but they did ok, where France, team with most continuity, was the biggest failure.

I might be cherry picking, but it really is all over the place, and I do not find serious correlation between continuity and success. I think SPain really had both and this argument was born, similar to Serbia later. But those teams were also clearly most talented after USA, and frankly - talent trumps other things at the end.

Continuity argument is just not very strong.

[UcanUwill]

Don’t know why posters here saying it’s a small sample size. US has had it creeping up on them for awhile.

A whole bunch of different reasons imo. Smaller court, rules, more time for one play, less time overall, experience matters.

Less propensity for loaded star power on ball dominance (only need two max). Defined sets whereas in the NBA they can rush multiple sets because of shot clock/8 sec rule so executing it on a smaller court is different with less time overall but more time for set plays.

Defense is a lot more equipped. Because of the size and rules.

To me Fiba stuff is a lot closer to how basketball should be played whereas NBA is a business first and foremost. Not that Fiba isn’t there’s just a better balance on both sides of the ball.

Luka has a good insight on this. NBA way better players, Fiba stuff is harder to get loaded/inflated stats/scores.

I think the biggest thing is the illegal defense. Imagine a goalie/free safety at all times whereas in the NBA the goalie/free safety can only be in the box for a small period of time. That alone I reckon would make all teams 2-3 points better on defense without even getting into improved defensive structures/ideas.

No secret as to why the lane is free real estate now.

I love the NBA but your post is basically fair. The NBA figured out people watch basketball primarily as an individual sport and they also figured out there is a certain style of player they prefer the most. And they greatly tailored the rulebook to highlight this type of player.

The FIBA rulebook is designed to make basketball much more of a 5-5 game with complicated strategy to get good shots rather than advanced individual skill

I just dont think that's the case. Anyone who's watched the Fiba World Cup this summer will agree, that Fiba play is just so much more intense and entertaining than NBA Basketball. I think if you combined the individual talent of the NBA with a Fiba ruleset, you would have the best product, that would gather the most interest of casual fans.

But I think that has more to do with the other rules, outside of the oncourt rules.

Except for the defensive 3 second rule, I think every rule difference in FIBA makes for a more entertaining product. Less timeouts, more contact allowed = fewer fouls, no ad timeouts, shorter timeouts, last 2 minutes of the game not taking 30 minutes etc. all contribute to the fact that, to me at least, it's so much more fun to watch FIBA Basketball than NBA. I am 100% sure, if the NBA took over the FIBA ruleset (except defensive 3 seconds) longterm, the sport would be so much more popular. I know so many people who cant bother to sit through a NBA game because it's such a drag to watch with all the foul calls, breaks, timeouts etc.

100% agree. I am huge Basketball fan, and NBA is my last favorite thing to watch. its the stoppage time.

[ellobo]

Haliburton's stats were actually pretty good. His shooting percentages were excellent, and he averaged 5.6 assists in 21.5 minutes. He was +10 or more in every game except one and cumulatively the ream was +105 in his minutes for the tournament.

Offense was not a problem for team USA. They led the tournament in scoring and scored above their tournament-leading average in their three losses. They scored just fine; they just couldn't/didn't defend (and got outrebounded by Germany and Lithuania).

[Wagonband]

I can understand why USA team sucked at FIBA games, but how european stars

Giannis lost to Germany in Eurobasket 22
Doncic lost to Poland in Eurobasket 22
Jokic lost to Italy in Eurobasket 22

Yes, basketball is indeed an individual sport... The last 2 games are upsets, but when everything depends on 1 game they are bound to happen

[UcanUwill]

Look at the numbers Haliburton put up tonight. This would simply not be possible in FIBA. I mean, as someone who doesn't play fantasy or gamble, I have to remind myself that what I am watching is a bastardization of the game in some aspects. The playoffs shouldn't look like a different sport from the regular season.

Luka scored 37 in FIBA this summer. In 31 minute

Haliburton's stats were actually pretty good. His shooting percentages were excellent, and he averaged 5.6 assists in 21.5 minutes. He was +10 or more in every game except one and cumulatively the ream was +105 in his minutes for the tournament.

Offense was not a problem for team USA. They led the tournament in scoring and scored above their tournament-leading average in their three losses. They scored just fine; they just couldn't/didn't defend (and got outrebounded by Germany and Lithuania).

Yeap, you cant compare NBA guys stats to team USA guy stats, simply because team USA is stacked. ANd even then, clear first options like Durant averaged around 20 ppg in the past, so its possible.

Dominant individual performances happen in FIBA all the time, its actually the medium for it, especially in youth competitions. But in adults, look at Vazenkov or Luka stats in FIBA, they put 27/5/5 or something like that.

People who say you can't individually dominate FIBA, its just another BS that people say thats just not true at all. Scoring stats are usually lower even for best NBA scorers, is because game is almost 20% shorter. They count assists far better aka more conservatively, but other than that, when team has clear best guy, these guys pack stats like crazy, all you need is just to look it up.

[Showdown]

You have real superstars that play great under every rule and in every competition and then you have guys that are manufactured superstars who are stars in the NBA because of the refs treatment, because they got freedom to pad stats or are players that play in a system that make them better because it put them in situation where their skills are utilized to the max while their flaws are hidden by the system.Guys like Kobe,Durant,Robinson,Hakeem,Nowitzki,Gasol,Ginobili,Petrović,Dončić,Carmelo,Edwards,Holiday,Markannen,Barkley,Irving,Harden,Parker played great both in NBA and in FIBA competitions while Jordan,Lebron,Duncan,Giannis,Jokić,Lillard,Iverson,Tatum,Brown and many b stars from NBA like Haliburton,Middleton,Ingram,Vucevic, Sabonis played much worse in FIBA competitions and it kinda show that in the second group you have players that got favorable whistle from the refs in the NBA and players who are product of the system so they both got exposed. If Duncan or Jokic were really best centers in the world then they wouldn't get outplayed by guy like Oberto (Duncan) or guys like 40 years old Scola or Meli (Jokić) . Giannis shouldn't be locked down by Bogdan Bogdanović in FIBA competitions if he was as good as he is in the NBA.Then you have guys like Mark Gasol,both Bogdanovic's,Rubio,Mills,Nurkic,Gobert,Dellavedova,Diaw,Hernangomez,Satoransky,Shroder,Wagner,Scola,Barbosa,Warejao,Dragic who are/were stars in FIBA competitions but don't/didn't get enough respect by the refs in the NBA so they are considered worse then they are/were and often get underrated by fans and media.

[Sedale Threatt]

Haliburton's stats were actually pretty good. His shooting percentages were excellent, and he averaged 5.6 assists in 21.5 minutes. He was +10 or more in every game except one and cumulatively the ream was +105 in his minutes for the tournament.

Offense was not a problem for team USA. They led the tournament in scoring and scored above their tournament-leading average in their three losses. They scored just fine; they just couldn't/didn't defend (and got outrebounded by Germany and Lithuania).

Bingo. We definitely had a few guys who didn't show up, but Haliburton was generally really good. Like 06, we lost this summer because we completely melted down defensively when it mattered.