who better offball: mj or bron?

[ShaqAttac]

Everyone say its mj but uni made a arg its bron

Spoiler:

The idea that a 6ft9 250-270 pound hyper athletic incredible passing incredible finishing forward that is a 36-40% shooter off the catch who thrives finishing off the move has issues off ball because teams put him on ball because he’s a GOAT level offensive player on ball is genuinely hilarious

Off ball issues relatively speaking... Lebron is a worse off-ball player than Jordan, Bird, Curry, KD etc. Obviously it doesn't mean he's bad off ball, just clearly worse than the best off ball players.

I get the arguments for others for sure but Jordan isn’t a better off ball player than lebron lol that’s a dumb take

The idea of Jordan being better off ball comes from not u understanding of how basketball scheme works and relying too much on the roles guys actually played rather than what they could, there’s a ridiculous amount you can do with a guy like lebron off ball, with Jordan if it comes down to he can curl off screens for midrange jumpers that really isn’t bunch value in today’s game

It essentially comes from people hugely overstating the value of stampede cuts and occupying help, in itself that’s not an overrated thing but the rarity and difficulty of it is hugely overstated and we’ve seen lebron do that more now but the difference is the gap he needs to score is easier and often the right play is him getting it anyways


I understand why people would think Jordan is better off ball but the reality is if they both were average on ball players, you would certainly have much more to work with offensively if you take some iterations as an off ball offensive force where he quite literally checks EVERY BOX as a off ball big for example, over a guy like Jordan who really isn’t helping much. He played in a more reactionary offense where he did cut in and occupy the D with off ball movement more, and you can certainly argue he did more off ball than many of lebrons seasons given the roles they played and the offenses they played in, but that’s not the same as being a better off ball player.

Like conceptually speaking if you take like Miami or some years of cleveland lebron for example he checks a ridiculous amount of boxes as an off ball 4


As an off ball big what you’d want generally use

Being a lob threat (vs aggressive screen coverages)
- he’s 6ft9 250 with a 45 inch vertical
Spacing the floor for catch and shoot three point jumpers (popping)
- outside of 2016 he was around 38-42% on catch and shoot threes
Short roll passing
- he’s lebron
Beating switches (yes)
- yes

When you actually try to see how many people can do all 4 it’s not a long list at all, versions of bron being incredibly elite at all 4 along with being a GOAT level finisher getting the ball if he’s early on the move makes him an insane off ball player if a team was designed to go around that more, and we’ve seen him start doing more cuts and movement off ball to occupy help when it’s his job to do so

Jordan in time coming off curls for midrange jumpers was important and it is a genuinely important skill for a team to have to have guys that can shoot off the move, but it’s the type where it’s a unique one to find and if you’re doing it off midrange shots and not three point shots now it’s just not that valuable since catch and

what y'all think?

wouldnt this also mean bron got more port?

[eminence]

I'd classify both as strong off-ball players. Not certain which way I'd lean on ability but MJ did it a lot more, so in terms of achievement I'd go MJ pretty clearly. Looking just at positional skillset I'd go slightly to LeBron, but it's tough to weigh that it was more of a changeup for him, so we didn't see defenses geared towards it, vs MJ it being more core to his game. Overall I'd go MJ for having more proof of concept, but I can see the LeBron argument.

All of that largely being determined by MJ playing in the triangle and LeBron not.

[tsherkin]

I'd say pre-Miami, it was obviously Jordan. He was an exceptional off-ball player and Lebron really wasn't until he learned how to use the post. Most of Lebron's game has been centered around what he can do with the ball, drawing attention, which is fine. Once he learned how to adapt better to another significant ball-handler/perimeter scorer, though, that's when this started to become an interesting discussion.

I'd lean MJ if only because he could leverage that J so much more and got to the post far earlier in his career. But Lebron makes a compelling case at this point.

[The Master]

Jordan comfortably. Bulls had +7.7 ORTG offense with 34yo Jordan having majority of his FGs being assisted and him being a third player on his team in assists in legendary offensive system. You can't do that with LeBron to the same degree.

That being said:

1) LeBron's offball skills are underrated in comparison to other guards/wings (he can efficiently play as a roller and his spot up shooting is kind of underrated) frequently mentioned as off-ball gods,
2) off-ball skills are probably the most overrated skills in those 'advanced' discussions about NBA players.

[penbeast0]

...
2) off-ball skills are probably the most overrated skills in those 'advanced' discussions about NBA players.

For an all time great competition, I might agree with you (I would say it's volume scoring personally). But, when you are NOT the main man on your team, most guys who are primary scorers are more comfortable on ball and for a secondary scorer, it becomes a more valuable set of skills. Not as important in a Jordan v. LeBron discussion of course, but in an Michael Porter Jr. v. Kris Middleton discussion it is more so.

[The Master]

For an all time great competition, I might agree with you (I would say it's volume scoring personally). But, when you are NOT the main man on your team, most guys who are primary scorers are more comfortable on ball and for a secondary scorer, it becomes a more valuable set of skills. Not as important in a Jordan v. LeBron discussion of course, but in an Michael Porter Jr. v. Kris Middleton discussion it is more so.

Yeah, yeah, this is what I'm referring to. Lack of offball skills of Jarred Vanderbilt is disqualifying for him as a player (to some degree, obviously) - when you have Magic freakin' Johnson on your team, you build the whole offense around him realistically in almost every scenario. And if you have a resume of being one of the greatest players ever, I don't think being a worse offball player (supposedly) is as relevant in such comparisons as for some seems to be.

But it's another story, so I don't wanna offtopic this thread: LeBron vs Jordan is always about better on-ball vs better off-ball player, you can argue LeBron's on-ball skills are more 'valuable' in simulation-like comparison (so, in most cases would provide better outcome), but to say he's a better off-ball player would be a complete misrepresentation of this comparison IMHO. As much as I find 'every' discussion worth of having, I guess we're in this state of so many MJ vs LBJ discussions that now we will over-analyze stuff just to bring something new.

[Djoker]

..

I still can't believe you said arguing Jordan is a dumb take.

Even big Lebron fans like Heej disagreed with you.

Anyway this is comfortably Jordan:
- much better shooter
- better at navigating around screens to get open; smaller frame, quicker
- better offensive rebounder (surprisingly..)
- quicker decision maker on the catch vs. Lebron's slower, more deliberate play
- also a lob threat - 6'6'' 48 inch vertical lol
- more proof of concept; actually scored many more points off ball vs. a bunch of hypotheticals for Lebron; we've seen Jordan lead elite offenses while playing a lot off-ball whereas we've never seen it with Lebron

[EmpireFalls]

This is obviously Jordan in terms of observed impact.

Though LeBron is good, very good even, off-ball. Check out these numbers (remember this stat from a while back)

LeBron James played three years with Kyrie Irving. Here are his numbers as a PNR roller:

14-15: 1.417 PPP (98th percentile)
15-16: 1.358 PPP (95th percentile)
16-17: 1.429 PPP (96th percentile)

I’d also say his cutting and spot up shooting in Miami was legitimately great, think he was something like a 80th percentile catch and shoot player in Miami. Plus, he was definitely not playing heliocentric ball in 11-13.

[Whiffyemperor]

..

I still can't believe you said arguing Jordan is a dumb take.

Even big Lebron fans like Heej disagreed with you.

Anyway this is comfortably Jordan:
- much better shooter
- better at navigating around screens to get open; smaller frame, quicker
- better offensive rebounder (surprisingly..)
- quicker decision maker on the catch vs. Lebron's slower, more deliberate play
- also a lob threat - 6'6'' 48 inch vertical lol
- more proof of concept; actually scored many more points off ball vs. a bunch of hypotheticals for Lebron; we've seen Jordan lead elite offenses while playing a lot off-ball whereas we've never seen it with Lebron

It easy to do that in a weak isolation era with no zone defenses and short skinny guards like mookie baylock guarding u and doc Rivers.

He also played with best three point shooter in Steve kerr and bj Armstrong, best offensive rebounder rodman and grant too much credit to jordan here. A stacked defensive team which played better without him on defense

[MacGill]

..

I still can't believe you said arguing Jordan is a dumb take.

Even big Lebron fans like Heej disagreed with you.

Anyway this is comfortably Jordan:
- much better shooter
- better at navigating around screens to get open; smaller frame, quicker
- better offensive rebounder (surprisingly..)
- quicker decision maker on the catch vs. Lebron's slower, more deliberate play
- also a lob threat - 6'6'' 48 inch vertical lol
- more proof of concept; actually scored many more points off ball vs. a bunch of hypotheticals for Lebron; we've seen Jordan lead elite offenses while playing a lot off-ball whereas we've never seen it with Lebron

It easy to do that in a weak isolation era with no zone defenses and short skinny guards like mookie baylock guarding u and doc Rivers.

He also played with best three point shooter in Steve kerr and bj Armstrong, best offensive rebounder rodman and grant too much credit to jordan here. A stacked defensive team which played better without him on defense

King Troll quoted here. But remember, 20 years from now, LBJ will be the weak era with skinny guards etc. I'm expecting your quotes to be updated by then to 'whomever is the next biggest thing'.

[OhayoKD]

..

I still can't believe you said arguing Jordan is a dumb take.

Even big Lebron fans like Heej disagreed with you.

Anyway this is comfortably Jordan:
- much better shooter
- better at navigating around screens to get open; smaller frame, quicker
- better offensive rebounder (surprisingly..)
- quicker decision maker on the catch vs. Lebron's slower, more deliberate play
- also a lob threat - 6'6'' 48 inch vertical lol
- more proof of concept; actually scored many more points off ball vs. a bunch of hypotheticals for Lebron; we've seen Jordan lead elite offenses while playing a lot off-ball whereas we've never seen it with Lebron

It easy to do that in a weak isolation era with no zone defenses and short skinny guards like mookie baylock guarding u and doc Rivers.

He also played with best three point shooter in Steve kerr and bj Armstrong, best offensive rebounder rodman and grant too much credit to jordan here. A stacked defensive team which played better without him on defense

Thinking Jordan is a better offensive rebounder is probably just box-watching. If we did similar possession-tracking with who was actually boxing out and taking out defenders of the play as we did when looking at rim-load, Jordan is probably scoring, at best, as a distant third on the Bulls.

[Djoker]

ORB% Averages

Regular Season
Jordan 4.7%
Lebron 3.6%

Playoffs
Jordan 4.8%
Lebron 4.4%

[70sFan]

I think the gap is vastly overstated in terms of actual abilities, but it's still Jordan. Much more natural shooter off a catch, better at running around screens due to smaller frame, quicker decision maker (which doesn't mean necessarily better).

James has physical advantages that makes him potentially more dangerous in some off-ball situations, but Jordan just played way more like that, has more experience playing that way and more suited skillset to do that.

[Colbinii]

Jordan has far more impact off-ball playing in systems which required him off-ball.

As for who was more capable? Not sure, but 2013 and 2014 LeBron is a good "pull back the curtain" type view into what could have been had he been with a Pippen-level playmaker for his prime.

[MacGill]

Both athletic beasts, able to play above the rim, and super quick. MJ was a far better overall shooter though in my opinion which allowed him better range playing off the ball. His first step was pretty vicious and could turn on a dime. LBJ is more powerful, which is perfect for him in a much more spaced league, but there isn't much athletically that each other couldn't replicate about the other except MJ was more agile from a stop and go standpoint (spiderman). LBJ more like the slim version of Juggernaut.

[trex_8063]

ORB% Averages

Regular Season
Jordan 4.7%
Lebron 3.6%

Playoffs
Jordan 4.8%
Lebron 4.4%

fwiw, I think you're overlooking how philosophy on crashing the glass (vs getting back on D) have changed, how increased 3pt usage (creating more long rebounds), etc have changed between their respective careers.

The league average OREB% [for a team] during Jordan's prime hovered somewhere around 31-33%.
In LeBron's prime it's been ~22-27%.

In light of that, the numbers you cite may not be suggesting what you think they do.

[falcolombardi]

I still can't believe you said arguing Jordan is a dumb take.

Even big Lebron fans like Heej disagreed with you.

Anyway this is comfortably Jordan:
- much better shooter
- better at navigating around screens to get open; smaller frame, quicker
- better offensive rebounder (surprisingly..)
- quicker decision maker on the catch vs. Lebron's slower, more deliberate play
- also a lob threat - 6'6'' 48 inch vertical lol
- more proof of concept; actually scored many more points off ball vs. a bunch of hypotheticals for Lebron; we've seen Jordan lead elite offenses while playing a lot off-ball whereas we've never seen it with Lebron

It easy to do that in a weak isolation era with no zone defenses and short skinny guards like mookie baylock guarding u and doc Rivers.

He also played with best three point shooter in Steve kerr and bj Armstrong, best offensive rebounder rodman and grant too much credit to jordan here. A stacked defensive team which played better without him on defense

King Troll quoted here. But remember, 20 years from now, LBJ will be the weak era with skinny guards etc. I'm expecting your quotes to be updated by then to 'whomever is the next biggest thing'.

The thingh is...that new better era already arrived.... and a old lebron dominated there

And a 35 year old lebron was the best player of the season at that era (2020) which is lowkey the most impressive thingh about lebron, his 36 years old was arguably the league best player over legitimate "new era" basketball freaks like giannis and jokic as late as 2021 before the injury

His late 30's version adapted to a completely different era and thrived way out of his athletic prime

Just like his post athletic prime early late 20's/early 30's did adapt to dominate a changing league in the 2010's

[rrravenred]

One of those questions that's heavily dependent on how they were actually used in-game. Jordan's decisiveness, confidence and huge sweet spots made him an ideal finisher and iso scorer once a mismatch is identified. Especially when you have a distributed offensive pattern like the triangle and a skilled facilitator like Pippen, it would be silly NOT to maximise his productive potential offball.

LeBron, otoh remains one of the deadlier and multi-pronged on-ball presences the NBA has seen. This versatility is a limiter however, given taking the ball out of his hands is going to downgrade your offensive sets, especially with modern heliocentric offences. Given that, Lebron's size, athleticism, strength and shooting touch make him a solid finishing threat, especially on the move. Not, however to the outlier level Jordan was, and not to the level that is worth sacrificing onball value for anything other than relatively short stints.

[lessthanjake]

In terms of what actually happened, Jordan was a better off-ball player and it’s not even remotely close or in any way debatable. The argument quoted in the OP is appealing to a hypothetical. It’s saying that LeBron had a certain skill set which might actually have allowed him to be a really great off-ball player if he’d really leaned into that a lot. But the proof of concept for LeBron isn’t really there, since that’s not really how he was ever played to a significant degree (obviously he didn’t have the ball all the time, but he was never focused on off-ball value). Saying LeBron is as good or better as an off ball player would be similar to saying Jordan is as good or better than LeBron as a heliocentric player based on some assessment of Jordan’s skill set (possesses GOAT-level ability to beat his man off the dribble, possesses incredible body control that makes help defense often ineffective, very good passer who has the body control to change decisions mid-air, etc.). That’d just be speculation, because Jordan virtually never played as a heliocentric player and LeBron did. Obviously Jordan was the better off-ball player and LeBron was the better heliocentric player. That’s the reality of what actually happened. Any argument otherwise on either front is just hypothesizing based on general assessments of skill sets. And you can honestly get to essentially any conclusion you want to that way, since one can always just play up the importance of strengths and ignore or downplay the importance of weaknesses to come to a conclusion that someone would be really good at something if only they actually did it more.

Also, as a separate matter, the argument quoted in the OP is conceptually centered around who would be a better off-ball player in *today’s* NBA. But Jordan didn’t play in today’s NBA. LeBron does. We’d of course expect that a superstar in today’s NBA would have a game more suited to today’s NBA than a superstar from the past. If we want to base our assessment of how good a player is on how their game would fit in today’s NBA, then that’s just putting a massive finger on the scale for more recent players. That’s fine if that’s how someone prefers to look at things, but I don’t think it’s how most people assess these sorts of things.

[ShaqAttac]

In terms of what actually happened, Jordan was a better off-ball player and it’s not even remotely close or in any way debatable. The argument quoted in the OP is appealing to a hypothetical. It’s saying that LeBron had a certain skill set which might actually have allowed him to be a really great off-ball player if he’d really leaned into that a lot. But the proof of concept for LeBron isn’t really there, since that’s not really how he was ever played to a significant degree (obviously he didn’t have the ball all the time, but he was never focused on off-ball value). Saying LeBron is as good or better as an off ball player would be similar to saying Jordan is as good or better than LeBron as a heliocentric player based on some assessment of Jordan’s skill set (possesses GOAT-level ability to beat his man off the dribble, possesses incredible body control that makes help defense often ineffective, very good passer who has the body control to change decisions mid-air, etc.). That’d just be speculation, because Jordan virtually never played as a heliocentric player and LeBron did. Obviously Jordan was the better off-ball player and LeBron was the better heliocentric player. That’s the reality of what actually happened. Any argument otherwise on either front is just hypothesizing based on general assessments of skill sets. And you can honestly get to essentially any conclusion you want to that way, since one can always just play up the importance of strengths and ignore or downplay the importance of weaknesses to come to a conclusion that someone would be really good at something if only they actually did it more.

Also, as a separate matter, the argument quoted in the OP is conceptually centered around who would be a better off-ball player in *today’s* NBA. But Jordan didn’t play in today’s NBA. LeBron does. We’d of course expect that a superstar in today’s NBA would have a game more suited to today’s NBA than a superstar from the past. If we want to base our assessment of how good a player is on how their game would fit in today’s NBA, then that’s just putting a massive finger on the scale for more recent players. That’s fine if that’s how someone prefers to look at things, but I don’t think it’s how most people assess these sorts of things.

arent u a big port believer? why u talking about all that if u dont care about skillsets or whatever. you also made a big fuss about mjs stats playing pg. didnt brons cavs do much better even without mo?