Heej wrote:Thank you for contributing to the point I was making regarding how MJs teams were advantaged by continuity; afforded by Pippen gettin popped in contract negotiations, while lucking into a Mt Rushmore coach and a great owner.
You've lost me here? Just a question, how good/popular was the Chicago franchise before Mj & then MJ/Pip?
Ironic how you bring up AD when him and LeBron have been disadvantaged the most by lack of continuity due to an incompetent ownership group that mismanaged assets and hirings. And if you try to twist that into blaming that on LeBron then I think we're entering delusional territory as far as how payroll and team level decision making is made.
Man, you luv playing the victim card, I see. Perhaps this is why the fanbases can never see eye to eye. So to confirm, in the most modern and financially sound league the nba has ever seen, with the explosion of sports science and social media it's the incomptent owners who are to blame for individual player progression? I wonder how the owners run the training camps and practices then?
Also as far as "leadership types" that's incredibly naive to not think multiple voices and types of leadership are needed to survive the grind of a full NBA season let alone a career. Jordan burnt himself out on multiple occasions while LeBron has only achieved sustained excellence. We cannot be doing this kind of back of a cereal box psychological analysis.
Who is being naive? That's exactly what I am saying and the leader who I'd want to have the most influence overall is in the same trenches with me, not on a private jet overseeing how my exec team is handling my bball operations. Bro, you're acting like this is complicated and every player needs a Dr. Phil PHD just to play.
I've recently taken to this approach now when I assess pure "goodness" for these guys now. Look at their film, the data, and context for their era. If you simmed them across all 30 teams in 30 different years what does your analysis from film+data suggest whether this guy's context (ownership, health, coaching, teammate strength relative to league average) suggests his career turned out better than what it would be on average.
Well, this is part of the problem that I have now. It's like comparing today's stock market to the 90's and now bringing in Crypto as the new measurement/standard of investing while telling everyone that in comparison investing in the 80/90's sucked because you couldn't make 100K on BTC trading from your phone overnight. But at least within the era alone you can certainly tell who are the outliers and the ones who didn't play victim and helped make their own success.
I would argue the way Hakeem, KG, Wilt, Dirk, Big O, Logo, and arguably LeBron are probably in the bottom half of probabilities for how well their careers could've turned out. Meanwhile guys like Russell, Magic, Bird, MJ, Timmy, KD, Steph pretty clearly experienced better outcomes than on average over 900 simulations with different ownership groups like I suggested (for clarification I rate Kareem, Dr. J, Mailman, DRob, Shaq, Kobe, Giannis, Jokic about average as far as how fortunate their organizational context was)
Okay, but you realize that the present will always be the most modern version of the sport, right? And the seperation of first and last place inside eras shrinks because of money and access and 20 years from now, even though you can't imagine it yet, this era will also feel more stone-aged. But, with all this modernization players mindsets change and adapting/accepting failure is met with much more resistance because of such easier pathways from a younger age. Quick case and point - Bulls never even picked up MJ from the airport on draft night. LBJ already driving a Hummer in HS. And the luck of **** mgmt/ownership will continue throughout the rest of time. And pretty much every one has dropped huge bombs over their career.
So when I look at LeBron he had below average organizational context overall while Jordan had an extremely fortunate one, yet Jordan's RAPM numbers fall short of LeBron's and others' anyway in the new data it just makes me question this as some kind of nail in the coffin of this debate
. So outside of one lineup where is this data showing you that Jordan's "true hard practice" is somehow superior to LeBron's? LeBron's in the gym and film room more than anyone. All of these statements just lack context or are hyperbolic to me.
Yeah, again, this is like saying I didn't become successful because I didn't have a richer family so you can't blame me for drinking every single day. Again, you think Krause was saying.....Hmmmmm, if I add this unknown player who almost never even went to college I could see maximum impact in RAPM so long as I don't F if up? Practice with MJ was RAPM back then because, and again this isn't a shock, he demanded, not asked, didn't have his coach or Krause ask, he demanded the entire team do better. That's why when the roster, not just MJ alone, got to that level, they 3-peated twice. Again, in the history of the league - Russell, Shaq/Kobe MJ are the only ATG's who can speak to this and what do you think they all had in common as floor generals? And here's a hint, it wasn't reviewing RAPM data or crying to mgmt about personel.
And to put it out there, I'm not emotional, mad or anything of the contrary. I'll take the sly remarks and always provide me mindset, even if others do not agree.
. Also it seems few understand probabilities and percentages.